Russia-Turkey S-400 missile deal

magnumcromagnon wrote:But does the cost factor in France, Germany, and effectively Turkey leaving the program?

France and Germany are not partners as far as I know and Turkey has not yet left.

The cost estimates for all the program would be affected by increase or reduction of total number of orders, but there have been new customers as well so I am not sure what is the currently expected number of aircraft.

GarryB wrote:
I suspect the cost of operational use and continued problems with the aircraft has led to them reducing their profit margin, and more important those charts show projected prices... when countries reduce their order numbers that will normally have the reverse effect.

So with the price going down and orders going down... better watch out for material substitution and simple fraud.

The Airframe life was supposed to be 8,000 hours and is actually only about 2,000 hours, which is going to effect lifetime costs, because these birds are going to die young.

My feeling is that Trump came with his "deal mastery" threatening to cut the program and then lower prices were forced on Lockheed and P&W, which had been probably ripping off the DoD in previous LRIPs. So much for free market economy...

APUC and PAUC are projected prices, LRIP prices are not.

Airframe life issues were with some of the early manufactured units, not with the current ones AFAIK

LMFS wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:There is, in no way, it is lower than $100M. Not only the parts are made in multiple different countries, but it being cheaper than Rafale as an example where whole production is at home, is silly.

No, it was debunked. Sorry dude.

Best bet? See how much it costs let's say Italy or others in their next upcoming orders (or Poland).

The data you saw are the APUC and PAUC related to program wide costs. I researched this, I am positive about it.

Unit Costs
As of December 2017, the F-35 program had a program acquisition unit cost (or PAUC, meaning total acquisition cost divided by the 2,456 research and development and procurement aircraft) of about $110.0 million and an average procurement unit cost (or APUC, meaning total procurement cost divided by the 2,443 production aircraft) of $89.8 million, in constant FY2012 dollars

However, this reflects the cost of the aircraft without its engine, as the engine program was broken out as a separate reporting line in 2011.
As of December 2017, the F-35 engine program had a program acquisition unit cost of about $21.6 million and an average procurement unit cost of $16.4 million in constant FY2012 dollars. Just as the reported airframe costs represent a program average and do not discriminate among the variants, the engine costs do not discriminate between the single engines used in the F-35A and C and the more expensive engine/lift fan combination for the F-35B.
However, beginning in December 2016, DOD’s Selected Acquisition Reports broke out unit recurring flyaway costs of the three engines as well as the separate airframes, as follows:

...
Unit Cost Projections
The F-35 program continues efforts to make the F-35 cost-competitive with previous-generation aircraft. (It should be noted that the articles cited below reference the cost of the F-35A, the simplest model.)
F-35 fighter jets will sell for as little as $80 million in five years, according to the Pentagon official running the program.
“The cost of an F-35A in 2019 will be somewhere between $80 and $85 million, with an engine, with profit, with inflation,” U.S. Air Force Lieutenant General Christopher Bogdan, the Pentagon’s manager of the program, told reporters in Canberra today.109
That article dated from 2014. More recently, efforts have been increased to reach the same target:
[Lockheed Martin] will invest up to $170 million over the next two years to extend its existing “Blueprint for Affordability” measure ... to drive down the unit cost of an F-35A to $85 million by 2019.110
As noted in Table 4, the average unit flyaway cost of an F-35A is officially projected at $77.5 million.

https://www.everycrsreport.com/files/20180423_RL30563_1156a27683086f2b263f11843b14a5de7d407be6.pdf

Beyond the table I already submitted:

For the eleventh consecutive year, the cost of an F-35A was lowered. The F-35A unit price including aircraft, engine and fee, is $89.2 million. This represents a 5.4 percent reduction from the $94.3 million it cost for an F-35A in Low-Rate Initial Production Lot 10 (LRIP 10).

https://www.f35.com/news/detail/pentagon-and-lockheed-martin-agree-to-reduced-f-35-price-in-new-production

As said, they have many ways of recovering the money after the sale, given not accessing ALIS will get your fleet grounded. And if Rafale sells more expensive then it says all about market value of both planes I guess...

if those prices are correct the UK /Royal Navy is being ripped off as UK is paying more than £160 million for each F-35B

It says projected cost... it is what they are estimating... the way they estimated that it would be in service in 2010 and would be in full scale mass production by now too...

Russia and Turkey are jointly developing aircraft and helicopter complexes

MOSCOW, April 29th. / Tass /. Russia and Turkey are working together to create advanced aviation and helicopter equipment, as well as components for armored vehicles. This was reported on Monday in the press service of Rosoboronexport (included in Rostec) with reference to the head of the company, Alexander Mikheev.

"We have a number of joint projects for the development of promising aviation and helicopter complexes, components for armored vehicles, after-sales service of the weapons supplied," says the press service of Mikheyev.

According to him, Turkey is also showing interest in the latest Russian combat modules, air defense systems of various ranges and anti-tank complexes. Mikheev also noted that, despite the interference of competitors in bilateral relations, Russia and Turkey manage to overcome the difficulties that arise.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6387928

TOR-E2, BUK-M3 VIKING, KORNET D, ARMATA, just choose!

Turkey is no amateur when it comes to making weapons... a few joint ventures would be good for both countries...

GarryB wrote:Turkey is no amateur when it comes to making weapons... a few joint ventures would be good for both countries...

Russia and Turkey are holding consultations on the creation of a long-range air defense system

ISTANBUL, Apr 30 - RIA Novosti, Alena Palazhchenko. Russia and Turkey are holding consultations on the creation of Ankara’s own long-range air defense system, Deputy Director General of Rosoboronexport Sergey Ladygin told RIA Novosti at the IDEF-2019 defense industry exhibition in Istanbul.
“We are discussing issues related to high-tech cooperation in this area with the Turkish defense industry representatives. It goes in two directions. We are considering the possibility of producing individual elements of the C-400 in Turkey. In addition, we are consulting on the creation of a national, new missile defense / air defense system long-range in the interests of Turkey, "said Ladygin.

According to him, a new air defense system is being developed.
"This is not a C-400, this is a new complex for the Republic of Turkey. And we are conducting consultations and joint work with it in this direction," the agency’s source added.

https://ria.ru/20190430/1553185396.html

Russia and Turkey began negotiations on the creation of a fifth-generation fighter

The decision to start work on the fifth-generation Russian-Turkish fighter will be made at the highest level.

Russia and Turkey began the first trial consultations on joint work on a fifth-generation fighter, Sergei Ladygin, deputy general director of Rosoboronexport, told Zvezda.

“We are consulting on generation 4 ++ fighters and are conducting the first, trial consultations on the fifth generation, although the decision will be made at the very top,” said Ladygin.

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20194301613-cPfxV.html

If I interpret correctly could be SU-35 Plus SU-57E/Russian/Turkish project.
Could Mig with it's 5g project be a contender will se if Erdogant don't back down.
Russia is going all the way

Interesting two bits of news.

I suspect the first bit is... lets build S-400 and upgrade it with some features of S-500 without actually handing over S-500 technology... which is fair enough while Turkey remains part of NATO and has US bases on its territory...

The second part, they are talking about a 5th gen aircraft, which I suspect will end up as something like the Su-30MKI, where the original design was Russian, and India chose the components to go inside... some french, some israeli, some russian, some indian.

Well I think a lot of things the Turks will want in their Su-57 will be Turkish, they probably wont go for Israeli components, but they might have French and possibly British or German or Italian components too.... it will be interesting to see where this all goes...

...at the very least I would like to see them dump the 20mm cannon on their attack helos and replace it with a 23mm cannon...

GarryB wrote:Interesting two bits of news.

I suspect the first bit is... lets build S-400 and upgrade it with some features of S-500 without actually handing over S-500 technology... which is fair enough while Turkey remains part of NATO and has US bases on its territory...

Agree, and let's do that for a long time to keep them locked, I think the BrahMos project is a good example to replicate, even with the same missile.

From what I have read they chose the S-400 deal over the US Patriot deal because Russia was allowing them more access and more control of the system... makes it sound like the US deal was the usual rental agreement... ie you have them on your territory and paint them any colour you like but we say when and where and against whom you can use them and no peaking inside.

Turkey became interested in Russian Su-35 fighter

At the IDEF-2019 exhibition, representatives of Ankara are eyeing the latest Su-35 fighter aircraft and medium-range anti-aircraft missile systems.

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/2019512017-Yey4q.html

The Daily Threat:
The Pentagon made it clear to Turkey that the purchase of the C-400 excludes Ankara’s participation in the F-35 program

https://tass.ru/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/6396313

What I think is funny is that Turkey prefers the S-400 instead of Patriot, then they threatened to stop sending the F35, Turkey says fine we will buy other planes, and the Americans keep threatening the same thing as if Turkey didn't heard them.

What I think is funny is that Turkey prefers the S-400 instead of Patriot, then they threatened to stop sending the F35, Turkey says fine we will buy other planes, and the Americans keep threatening the same thing as if Turkey didn't heard them.

Turkey has no trust in NATO and USA since the failed coup.

S-400 are a strategic buy to have Russian protection in case they bacame new Iran. 4 set without Buks, pantsirs and other s-350 won't make it a impenatrable IADS. It also opens their market to russian weapons just in case they need more like those sukhois if they don't get f-35 that buy the way won't be able to do anything against US forces just like their f-16.

Turkish F-16s are pretty much in Turkish control, Turkey can modify them integrate new domestic weapons on it and even change sub components like radar, IFF etc.

As for S-400, the medium and short range IADS entities that will be with S400 may be Turkish. Turkey already has Hisar ADS family, A version with 15 km range and O version with 25 km range. These versions are for land forces though. However, for IADS, there is an N version which will have RF guidance and expected range little bit higher than O.

Also, Korkut system with 35mm cannons would do the work that Pantsir does. Coupled with mobile Stinger launchers.

The problem is imtegration of S400 with these units. For this to happen, Russian side should provide the data link details through which a common language can be set with Turkish units, but as far as I know and hear, S-400s will be on their own without any communication with other assets.Even domestic ones.

So this is a problem. If so, Turkey may purchase additional Buk and Pantsir systems together with a Russian IADS command vehicle and interface which will integrate this whole standalone network.

As for Russian planes, situation is sad for Russia. Russian engines have very poor operational life compared with American ones. RD-33MK, which is the best medium class engine in Russian arsenal lacks behind the effectiveness of F16 engines with 1 to 4 ratio for operational life. Together with other problems, Russian aircraft do not seem to fit Turkish arsenal.

Maybe Mig-35 with Turkish subsystems and more upgraded RD-33 may be an option. But, Su-57 with AL-31F would crack down Turkish aviation logistics.

And also I wonder, do Russian engines, especially RD-33MK use NATO JP10 type fuel,or do they use something way different?

Turkish F-16s are pretty much in Turkish control, Turkey can modify them integrate new domestic weapons on it and even change sub components like radar, IFF etc

You need US approval. If they stop supplying spare parts they will be ground in less than 1 year. With rd-33 you can always buy spare parts even during a conflict against US.

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:Turkish F-16s are pretty much in Turkish control, Turkey can modify them integrate new domestic weapons on it and even change sub components like radar, IFF etc.

As for S-400, the medium and short range IADS entities that will be with S400 may be Turkish. Turkey already has Hisar ADS family, A version with 15 km range and O version with 25 km range. These versions are for land forces though. However, for IADS, there is an N version which will have RF guidance and expected range little bit higher than O.

Also, Korkut system with 35mm cannons would do the work that Pantsir does. Coupled with mobile Stinger launchers.

The problem is imtegration of S400 with these units. For this to happen, Russian side should provide the data link details through which a common language can be set with Turkish units, but as far as I know and hear, S-400s will be on their own without any communication with other assets.Even domestic ones.

So this is a problem. If so, Turkey may purchase additional Buk and Pantsir systems together with a Russian IADS command vehicle and interface which will integrate this whole standalone network.

As for Russian planes, situation is sad for Russia. Russian engines have very poor operational life compared with American ones. RD-33MK, which is the best medium class engine in Russian arsenal lacks behind the effectiveness of F16 engines with 1 to 4 ratio for operational life. Together with other problems, Russian aircraft do not seem to fit Turkish arsenal.

Maybe Mig-35 with Turkish subsystems and more upgraded RD-33 may be an option. But, Su-57 with AL-31F would crack down Turkish aviation logistics.

And also I wonder, do Russian engines, especially RD-33MK use NATO JP10 type fuel,or do they use something way different?

Update your knowledge. Old RD-33 yes, and you compare a single jet engine to single which of course an F-16 would require much more thrust from a single engine compared to a single engine on a dual engine aircraft. RD-93 on other hand used for Jf-16....

Argument is moot anyway cause Turkey isn't eyeing a MiG that uses rd-33 based engines. So far, they are eyeing jets that use Al-31 and greater.

And what difference would be if Turkey decided to purchase Al-41 engines? Of course it will be different and not exactly what turkey produces. Guess what? Same with the engine used for F-35 that Turkey would be getting.

RD-33MK is, afaik, an original designation which later became RD-93. But I still doubt its lifetime.

As I said, Su-57 is not equivalent of F-35. It rivals F-22.

RD-93 is just an RD-33 with the gearbox moved from the top to the bottom or vice versa... they are both 8-9 ton thrust engines.

There was talk about a new engine for MiG in the 11-12 ton thrust range but I haven't heard much about that in the last few years.

Regarding engine life... engines don't last for ever and paying 10 million dollars for an American engine because it will last 5 thousand hours seems a little short sighted when a 1 million dollar Russian engine will last 2,000 hours but can be used properly during that period.

The C-17 is a case in point... it has ratings for the airframe hours and it has short field performance ratings but the two are mutually exclusive.... you can have 8,000 hours airframe life or you can have 400m landing run with reduced payload, but you can't have both... if you land on short airstrips it invalidates the offer for air frame hours.

Western equipment is often better for peace time... it looks pretty and on paper is very capable and it is certainly expensive to buy... a good example is Javelin... a very capable looking piece of kit... but in combat if you just use it as a bunker buster it is terribly over priced for that role.

In the normal SACLOS mode without a lock on before launch it will hit the front of a tank and its anti armour performance is pretty ordinary, and the missile is rather slow and short ranged.

Metis-M1 and Kornet are very different systems but also much better value for money...

AbdulhamidtheSecond wrote:Turkish F-16s are pretty much in Turkish control, Turkey can modify them integrate new domestic weapons on it and even change sub components like radar, IFF etc.

As for S-400, the medium and short range IADS entities that will be with S400 may be Turkish. Turkey already has Hisar ADS family, A version with 15 km range and O version with 25 km range. These versions are for land forces though. However, for IADS, there is an N version which will have RF guidance and expected range little bit higher than O.

Also, Korkut system with 35mm cannons would do the work that Pantsir does. Coupled with mobile Stinger launchers.

The problem is imtegration of S400 with these units. For this to happen, Russian side should provide the data link details through which a common language can be set with Turkish units, but as far as I know and hear, S-400s will be on their own without any communication with other assets.Even domestic ones.

So this is a problem. If so, Turkey may purchase additional Buk and Pantsir systems together with a Russian IADS command vehicle and interface which will integrate this whole standalone network.

As for Russian planes, situation is sad for Russia. Russian engines have very poor operational life compared with American ones. RD-33MK, which is the best medium class engine in Russian arsenal lacks behind the effectiveness of F16 engines with 1 to 4 ratio for operational life. Together with other problems, Russian aircraft do not seem to fit Turkish arsenal.

Maybe Mig-35 with Turkish subsystems and more upgraded RD-33 may be an option. But, Su-57 with AL-31F would crack down Turkish aviation logistics.

And also I wonder, do Russian engines, especially RD-33MK use NATO JP10 type fuel,or do they use something way different?

the problem with US export tech ie air defense and aircraft come with kill switches installed in case ever America went to war against one of there export countries, the US via the NSA uploaded malware to power grids around the world including the EU to use the malware as kill switches to destroy power grids of a country they have targeted to attack (just like what is going on in Venezuela) ... they triggered against Syria by mistake in 2012 we have snowden to thank for this information

Turkey will receive some technology under the contract for C-400 - Sands

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=511657&lang=RU

I don't like Erdogant, but is not a puppet, never this would go through.

Triumphal procession: the delivery of Russian S-400 to Turkey has begun

Russian S-400 Triumph, which attracted the attention of the whole world, finally began to deliver to Turkey.

https://rg.ru/2019/07/12/triumfalnoe-shestvie-nachalas-postavka-rossijskih-s-400-v-turciiu.html

Turkish servicemen to arrive in Russia to train to operate S-400s in July-August — source

Earlier in the day, Turkey’s Ministry of National Defense reported the start of S-400 deliveries to the republic

MOSCOW, July 12. /TASS/. Turkish servicemen who will use Russia’s S-400 Triumf long-range anti-aircraft missile systems will come to Russia for training in July-August, a military-diplomatic source told TASS on Friday.

"In May-June, about 20 Turkish servicemen underwent training in the Russian training center, returned to their motherland after the end of the studies and will accept Triumfs. In July-August, 80 more servicemen from Turkey will come to this training center and will train to operate and use S-400s," the source said.

Earlier on Friday, Turkey’s Ministry of National Defense reported the start of S-400 deliveries to the republic. The ministry noted that the first batch of components under the contract was delivered to the Murted Air Base in Ankara. Later a military diplomatic source told TASS that the second military transport plane of the Russian Aerospace Force carrying an S-400 regimental batch on board will set off for Turkey soon.

The S-400 Triumf is a long-range anti-aircraft missile system that became operational in 2007. It is used to destroy aircraft, winged and ballistic missiles, including medium-range missiles, and may be used to destroy surface facilities.

https://tass.com/defense/1068333

Turkish defense ministry posts photos of first batch of S-400 equipment