Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

The 15% argument does not fly:

1) the current large class fraction is diminished thanks to lack of domestic production and high price of imported aircraft due to forex conversion.

2) the assumption that only Russia will be buying the aircraft is BS.

3) if anything is going to be subsidized it may as well be the large class.

4) Aeroflot is not the only airline in Russia

5) How come the USSR built the IL-86 and IL-96 if Russia does not really need them?


I will never respect the 1990s Yeltsin comprador regime imposed state on Russia. Thank God it is disappearing but there are still legacy
issues such as the collapse of domestic aircraft production. Aeroflot should be flying only Russian made jets.

Maximmmm wrote:

Firebird wrote:Something I can't follow is why Russia hasn't broken up the Airbus-Boeing duopoly by targetting places outside of China and the Western bloc. This is over 3.5 billion people.
Maybe with the MS-21 a pattern might emerge. I think there is an MS-21 - 800 or so which could potentially be pretty big. Altho u would thinking Ilyushin is the wide bodied preferred partner.

The Chinese are shady characters. I'd tell them to get lost on tech transfer.

We did try exactly that, the problem is the SSJ (our first real attempt that could compete with offerings by Airbus and Boeing) was plagued by problems with the French engine (ironically, because people were so proud of the collaboration at the start of the project) and a poor availability of service centers.
Also, you have to consider that airlines are very careful about buying into new and unproven aircraft, their margins are razor-thin and any extra time spent on the tarmac is immediately noticeable on the bottom line.
But it seems like we've started to figure it out, there's been a lot of discussion about solving those problems when deliveries of the MS-21 begin.

Regarding discussions about a wide-body aircraft in Russia. Yes we span 11 timezones but with the amount of smaller cities that we have a narrow-body long-range airliner would be able to fulfill the roles in every domestic airline we have. Planes that are able to fill more roles and be redirected between different cities are always more advantageous to have. It is simply a much bigger market. That cash can then be poured into development of the larger cousins.
Look at the aeroflot fleet:

B777 19 planes

B737 47 planes

A350 1 plane

A330 17 planes

A321 33 planes

A320 74 planes

SSJ-100 54 planes

That's 37 long-haul wide-bodies out of a total fleet of 245 total (about 15%)
The market that could be potentially replaced by variants of the MS-21 is 154 planes.
And that's for our leading international airline, for regional airlines the swing is even more away from wide-body giants.
Yes the big fancy 787-like plane is a great halo-product that shows off industrial prowess, but the real cash is in the 737, 320 and 220 for a reason. Making and focusing on the MS-21 was definitely the correct step.
You also have to consider that breaking the duopoly will require a massive initial order, which only our own airlines can be pressured into making. If we get 200-300 MS-21's flying in the air, suddenly interest from other airlines will pick up.
It's the story of the A220, boeing almost killed it because bombardier simply could not get the order books filled, letting Airbus swoop in, buy the whole thing and now it's selling better than feuerzangenbowle at the christmas market.

I don't have Aeroflot numbers but I would bet that many of the A330 could be replaced with extended range MS21-400 or a (future 500 if it is feasible).
The 19 Boeings cannot be replaced by MS21 variants but instead with upgraded and subsidized Il96 with 4 new engines (PD18 which may be the same used in a 500 variant).
SSJs and MS21s variations could replace all other planes. Unless Russia makes significant money from sales to china that can establish for a future partnership and not a one sided relation I don't see why Russia would need to develop this plane for the Chinese for free.
Even PD 35 would be an overkill for Russia. Why would Russia need to develop a new Ruslan?! It can settle for a smaller transport.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

william.boutros wrote:

I don't have Aeroflot numbers but I would bet that many of the A330 could be replaced with extended range MS21-400 or a (future 500 if it is feasible).
The 19 Boeings cannot be replaced by MS21 variants but instead with upgraded and subsidized Il96 with 4 new engines (PD18 which may be the same used in a 500 variant).
SSJs and MS21s variations could replace all other planes. Unless Russia makes significant money from sales to china that can establish for a future partnership and not a one sided relation I don't see why Russia would need to develop this plane for the Chinese for free.
Even PD 35 would be an overkill for Russia. Why would Russia need to develop a new Ruslan?! It can settle for a smaller transport.

They are building PD35... and it is not overkill. It is needed.
There are things that cannot be transported on a smaller aircrat..
Even a brand new aircraft in the same size and payload class of the il76, but with a wider and larger cargo area (like the chinese y-20 )) is not enough in same cases.

And there is actually work done on it. Since the engines are anyway being developed it would be silly not to use them on a civil widebody as well.

Finally, it is also a matter of prestige

Russia is going to do it. The naysayers can keep on yammering.

The US is a military-industrial welfare state which proves that government stimulus is important. The Russian government should stimulate Russia's
economy by helping develop high-value-added production. Putin's recent decree to ban all raw and token processed wood exports is a good sign
that the government has the right philosophy. I think Russia should ban titanium exports as well and force local production of titanium parts
if anyone wants it.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

william.boutros wrote:

I don't have Aeroflot numbers but I would bet that many of the A330 could be replaced with extended range MS21-400 or a (future 500 if it is feasible).
The 19 Boeings cannot be replaced by MS21 variants but instead with upgraded and subsidized Il96 with 4 new engines (PD18 which may be the same used in a 500 variant).
SSJs and MS21s variations could replace all other planes. Unless Russia makes significant money from sales to china that can establish for a future partnership and not a one sided relation I don't see why Russia would need to develop this plane for the Chinese for free.
Even PD 35 would be an overkill for Russia. Why would Russia need to develop a new Ruslan?! It can settle for a smaller transport.

They are building PD35... and it is not overkill. It is needed.
There are things that cannot be transported on a smaller aircrat..
Even a brand new aircraft in the same size and payload class of the il76, but with a wider and larger cargo area (like the chinese y-20 )) is not enough in same cases.

And there is actually work done on it. Since the engines are anyway being developed it would be silly not to use them on a civil widebody as well.

Finally, it is also a matter of prestige

Where would you spend prestige? 10 billion dollars pumped in the economy are better than in China.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

william.boutros wrote:

Where would you spend prestige? 10 billion dollars pumped in the economy are better than in China.

The twin engine derivative of the il96 has nothing to do with China.

Furthermore it will also be a very good base for a much better tanker aircraft than the il78 (and also will have better endurance and fuel consumption than the quad engine il96, allowing to perform his job for longer or to refuel more airplanes).

And the money will be spent on russian Engineering reaserch and manufacturing, instead of in foreign one.

Even if they needed only 50 widebodies, it would repay the expenses. An airbus A330 neo costs about 300 millions us dollars, and on top of that you have to add the cost of overhaul contracts (airlines normally do not pay directly for repair and spare parts, but pay a sort of flat rate based on the hours flown)... and all (or at least most of) that money is going outside Russia if those widebodies are Airbus or
Boeing.

A lot needs to be invested besides the wing and engine, the undercarriage of the Il96 for example is obsolete. It has an entire extra set of heavy wheels!

To be clear: when we talk about twin engine Il-96 we are not making it up, there is abundant evidence that this is an actual plan of the Russian industry:

https://aviation21.ru/il-96-s-dvumya-dvigatelyami-pd-35-mozhet-poyavitsya-v-2025-godu/

The state will allocate $ 3 billion for the creation of the PD-35 high-thrust aircraft engine of the projected Russian-Chinese SHFDMS CR929, Alexander Inozemtsev, Managing Director, General Designer of UEC-Aviadvigatel JSC, said.

He also said that the Il-96 with two PD-35 engines may appear in 2025, the customer is the presidential administration.

"As far as I know, there is already a specific task, this is 2025. The first anchor customer is the presidential administration, the twin-engine Il-96, by which time we are pulling the engine," Inozemtsev told reporters on August 9.

In January 2018, at that time, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin announced that the promising super-powerful PD-35 engine would become the main engine for future Russian military transport aircraft and would allow the transition to a twin-engine scheme on Il-96 aircraft.

"The PD-35 engine is needed not only for the Russian-Chinese wide-body passenger aircraft. It will allow to get away from the four-engine scheme on the Il-476, Il-478, Il-96-400, and will also become the base engine for a promising aviation complex of military transport aviation. "- Rogozin wrote on Twitter.

https://aviation21.ru/ispolnitelnyj-direktor-vaso-sergej-isaenko-nam-by-xotelos-chtoby-na-il-96-bylo-dva-dvigatelya-pd-35/

– There is an opinion that the plane is not competitive with four engines...

– We understand that the PS-90A1 engine is not efficient enough, but at the same time it meets the requirements of world standards in terms of noise and air emissions. Yes, the first Il-96-400M aircraft will be equipped with four such engines. At the same time, the maximum weight during takeoff should be at least 270 tons, and the flight range with a load of 41 tons will be at least 9 thousand km. These characteristics will allow the aircraft to stand on the same stage with foreign analogues.

At the same time, the transition to two engines is a prospect of the near future, which we are already thinking about today. We would, of course, like it to be a two-engine version with a Russian-made engine, such as the PD-35.
------------------------

It is obvious that this is the easiest, fastest, cheapest and safest way for Russia to get a fully domestic and competitive wide body airliner and stop subsidizing the West's aerospace industry

Russia to make domestic PD-8 engine for SSJ 100 and Be-200 planes by 2022

The Russian PD-8 engine for the SSJ 100 airliner and the Be-200 amphibious plane may be ready in 2022 and the work to mount it on the aircraft is scheduled to begin in 2023, United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Chief Yuri Slyusar said at the Hydroaviasalon 2020 air show on Friday. This reported by TASS.

"There is hope that we will get the engine in 2022. In 2023, we will primarily mount it on the SSJ 100 and subsequently on the Be-200 to achieve 100% import independence from Ukraine," the UAC chief said.

First Deputy CEO of Russia’s state hi-tech corporation Rostec Vladimir Artyakov earlier told TASS that the PD-8 engine would get a type certificate in 2023. The engine’s base could be used for helicopters, he added.

https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2020/10/16/15525/

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Good news, I would be really interested in seeing what kind of performance will the engine have and if they will keep the same external dimensions (including fan size as the fan was made by Saturn).

I read in the past that they wanted to only replace the parts made by the French company (HP compressor, combustion chamber, HP turbine, accessories gearbox and control system)...

It needs also new nacelle and thrust reverses (also French made for the SaM146, but these are part of the powerplant systems and not of the engine itself (nacelles and thrust reverser are certified together with the aircraft, not with the engine)
Is this what is happening or it is a totally new engine based on a scaled down PD14?

I don't know, I haven't found those details. What is known is that they are accelerating the project and according to the plans, they need to have the engine essentially ready for 2022, so they need to reuse almost every element. Otherwise it would take very long, little time ago it was said they would need 5 years for the development and now they have almost halved that.

hopefully in case of reuse of fan, casings and LP turbine from The Sam146 this will not penalize the performance..

Sam146 is not a bad engine, but it is not the best now available in terms of range and SFC.

Unless this one is a sort of intermediate step to save time and the new core developed now will be reused later on a new engine

I think they are not going for the best performance but rather to eliminate the problems and vulnerabilities they have with the current engine, they not only depend of Safran but also on their US suppliers that refuse to increase production of certain pieces for their engines. The fact that they decided to to speed up the SSJ-New shows that they are in a hurry. They can use the SSJs in storage and currently produced for Red Wings and similar state-owned companies for a certain time, but soon they need to normalise the sustainability of the fleet at levels compatible with sales to private Russian companies and export customers.

I think the PD series is designed from the beginning to be scalable. So PD-8 is new mostly due to change in size of components and not in
terms of design of different parts and layout. This enables the short time for the creation of PD-8 after PD-14 was certified. Most of
the time is to retool production facilities to produce scaled parts. The production side is a big job too.

kvs wrote:I think the PD series is designed from the beginning to be scalable.   So PD-8 is new mostly due to change in size of components and not in
terms of design of different parts and layout.   This enables the short time for the creation of PD-8 after PD-14 was certified.   Most of
the time is to retool production facilities to produce scaled parts.   The production side is a big job too.

 

Exactly, the lower-thrust engines are a matter of figuring out the scaling and retooling. The 35 is the big re-engineered breakthrough project.

These statements from 2010 clarify that the core was intended to be the same for the whole PD-14 range from 7 to 20 tf:

Gas generator for the PD-14 family of engines

The creation of a new unified demonstrator gas generator, one might say, opened a new era for the domestic civil aircraft engine building. On the basis of the new gas generator, it is planned to certify and launch serial production of a family of aircraft engines and ground industrial gas turbines in the coming years.

A. Inozemtsev emphasized that today there is no such gas generator in the world. It is known that abroad work on promising engines is underway, all of them are at different stages of R&D, and all information about competitors in the market is monitored.

The gas generator remains the same for the entire family of aircraft engines, ground gas turbines and marine engines and is the same for them in serial production. "The gas generator is the key to the success of the entire program. The cold part of the engine can change. Our analysis shows that the engine will be competitive in the thrust range from 7 to 20 tons. Less than 7 tons, the engine is large, and its performance is no longer competitive, and at a thrust over 20 tons the gas generator will be too forced, and it will be difficult to provide a high resource ", - noted A. Inozemtsev.

https://www.aviaport.ru/news/2010/12/13/207294.html

The case of theft in the Ka-62 helicopter program

As reported on October 17, 2020 by the TASS news agency , the Investigative Committee of the Russian Federation opened three criminal cases on embezzlement of about 3.6 billion rubles during the construction and design of the Ka-62 helicopter against officials of the Russian Helicopters holding, the Kamov company and the Ministry industry and trade. This was reported to TASS by a law enforcement source.

“In total, three criminal cases are being investigated, the total damage for which may amount to 3.6 billion rubles. At present, the investigation is in an active stage and identifies all the accomplices of the criminal group, including the as yet unidentified officials [of the companies] Russian Helicopters, Kamov and the Ministry of Industry and Trade, ”he said.

According to the source, the first of three criminal cases of fraud (Article 159 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation) was initiated in July 2019, the second - at the end of October of the same year in the Main Investigative Directorate of the Investigative Committee of the Moscow Region on the basis of materials from the inspection of the Moscow Region Prosecutor's Office and the Economic Security Service (SEB ) FSB of Russia.

As follows from the materials of the cases that TASS reviewed, unidentified officials of Kamov JSC (contractor) in the period from 2012 to 2014 handed over development work to the customer of Russian Helicopters JSC as completed in full.

They included the manufacture of two fuselages and the final assembly of the Ka-62 prototype helicopter, the creation of a full-scale Ka-62 stand and its transportation to JSC KumAPP, as well as the development and manufacture of starter-generators for the Ka-62.

The investigation believes that these works were not done in full. “Thus, the Russian Federation suffered damage in the amount of 162.7 million rubles,” the documents say.

The second case concerns the period from 2013 to 2016. At that time, according to the case file, unidentified officials from JSC Kamov signed contracts with the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia, which they handed over the same helicopters and stands as Russian Helicopters, and also did not complete the assembly of two helicopters.

The total damage in this case amounted to more than 700 million rubles. The injured party in the case is Russian Helicopters JSC.

The third case was opened in September this year. The source did not give his storyline.

TASS has not yet received official comments from the investigating authorities, Russian Helicopters and JSC Kamov.

Identified thefts

Lieutenant General Nikolai Gryaznov, former deputy general director of Russian Helicopters holding company for security and the amount of the alleged damage. "I think that those internal investigations, which are carried out by our security service, the materials that we have received, say that there [in the" Helicopters of Russia "] were huge embezzlement in the construction and design of the helicopters," - he said.

Gryaznov said that the state tasks that were given were practically not fulfilled, although the money was paid for it.

“Moreover, the helicopter was built, but it does not meet the technical characteristics and standards that were originally laid down, [revealed] a bunch of violations in the design, construction, operation, the helicopter constantly gets into emergency situations,” added Gryaznov.

According to him, during an official audit in 2015-2016, an independent examination of the design of the Ka-62 was carried out, which showed that 3 billion rubles of budget funds were either spent on the wrong purposes, or stolen. He clarified that the spending of this money was not documented.

The Ka-62 is a medium multipurpose helicopter currently being tested. At the end of May 2017, it made its first test flight at the site of the Arsenyev Aviation Company "Progress". The flight lasted 15 minutes at a speed of 110 km / h and showed that all the necessary modifications to the helicopter were successfully completed. The Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation plans to sell 365 Ka-62s by 2030. The main areas of application of the Ka-62 include passenger transportation, rescue operations, and work in the oil and gas field.



Later, the Russian Helicopters holding confirmed to TASS that it was cooperating with law enforcement officers on the creation of the Ka-62 helicopter, but the earlier declared amount of damage of up to 3.6 billion rubles could not be confirmed.

Russian Helicopters Holding is cooperating with law enforcement agencies on the creation of the Ka-62 helicopter in 2011-2016, however, it would be incorrect to comment on the details before the conclusions of law enforcement agencies, especially since the holding does not have official information on the initiation of criminal cases in relation to specific (former or current) employees and do not have information to confirm the amount of damage, "the holding told TASS.

As a source in the investigating authorities told TASS earlier, the Investigative Committee opened three criminal cases of large-scale fraud in the construction and design of the Ka-62 against officials of Russian Helicopters, Kamov and the Ministry of Industry and Trade. According to him, the amount of damage to the budget of the Russian Federation can reach up to 3.6 billion rubles.

The interlocutor of the agency specified that the investigation is currently in an active stage and identifies all the accomplices of the criminal group, including officials of Russian Helicopters, Kamov and the Ministry of Industry and Trade.


From the bmpd side, recallthat the program for the creation of the Ka-62 helicopter is progressing extremely slowly, continuing the sad traditions of this record long-term construction of the domestic helicopter industry - work on the original B-60 project was started at the Kamov Design Bureau back in the late 1970s. The first first flight prototype of the Ka-62 helicopter under the designation OP-1 (registration number RA-00000, replaced by RA-621 in the fall of 2017), built by PJSC Arsenyevskaya Aviation Company Progress named after N.I. Sazykin "of the holding" Russian Helicopters "(part of the State Corporation" Rostec "), performed the first hover on April 28, 2016 and made the first full-profile flight in Arsenyev on May 25, 2017. However, then flights on OP-1 were not performed for nine months due to modifications and factory flight tests were resumed.only on February 15, 2018, continuing very sluggishly.

The second was actually launched into the air in August 2019, built by AAK Progress, the third flight prototype of the OP-3 helicopter (tail number 623).

The second built pilot prototype of the OP-2 helicopter, manufactured by AAK Progress, was first publicly demonstrated at the Eastern Economic Forum on Russky Island in Vladivostok in September 2017, but it was only taken into the air on December 27, 2019.

In addition, two non-flying prototypes of the Ka-62 were built - the full-scale resource stand of the Ka-62 No. 01RS (NS-762) for testing the transmission and the carrier system, located in Kumertau, and a non-flying specimen built back in 2013 (serial number 97876210102, registration number RA-62002), which has been used since 2014 for strength and endurance tests carried out on a contract basis at Aviatest LNK in Riga (Latvia).

The Ka-62 helicopter is powered by two Safran Helicopter Engines (formerly Turbomeca) Ardiden 3G French turboshaft engines. The first flight prototypes of the Ka-62 were equipped withreducers and transmissions of the rotor and tail rotor developed by the Austrian company Zoerkler Gears GmbH & Co. KG. Serial helicopters are supposed to be equipped with Russian-made gearboxes.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4166615.html

George1 wrote:The case of theft in the Ka-62 helicopter program

Imho the reason this program is such a goddamn disaster is because nobody can say what it's for.

In Russia corruption is exposed and prosecuted. In America it is legalized and ignored.