Sino-Russian relations and trade

China is cool until it starts copying Russian stuff and calling it their own and even better. Then it really pisses me off.

The good side to China is that I understand they've never tried to invade anywhere outside the (former!) 7 kingdoms of China.

BUT with 1.4 billion people, huge ec power, and shit stirrers (America's republicans etc!) backing them, I dont think vigilance and caution does any harm. Even Hitler tried the "Mr Nice Guy" routine in the early days.

Nor does China show any respect for intellectual property.

Persoanlly, I think their mentality, their obsession with "face" (ie status and pride) means that its not really possible for Russia to become real friends with them.

Natural alliances I believe are the CIS, India, Slavic Europe, and the more advanced European countries. And places like Brazil, Venezuela etc

Trade is fine (within reason), tech transfer and weakening the Russian position... NO THANKS!

OK the gas deal is fine. Provided it doesn't take Russia away from doing things with Europe. The question is...what will Russia's long term relationship with China be like.

For now, 200bn pa is very good news.

Firebird wrote:The good side to China is that I understand they've never tried to invade anywhere outside the (former!) 7 kingdoms of China.

Of course you can't base future predictions off past history - but it holds a lot of relevance nontheless. You can certainly gain a better understanding of a country's likely actions, phobia, vital interests, etc.. by looking at how it has behaved in the past.

For example you could always count on Russia to want to acquire buffer states and allies on its Western borders with Europe.
And likewise you can count on China to be insular, fixated on their economy, and keep themselves mostly to Asia, rather than attempting to colonise Siberia; after all they never even wanted to risk allocating the resources required for that at any time during their several thousand year history; even when those lands were just inhabited by scattered tribes as opposed to a nuclear power with a huge military as now.

BUT with 1.4 billion people, huge ec power, and shit stirrers (America's republicans etc!) backing them, I dont think vigilance and caution does any harm. Even Hitler tried the "Mr Nice Guy" routine in the early days.

America's neo-cons are still raging today - that they can't get Russia and China to duke it out or even display the slightest signs of public distrust or disagreement with each other

It means Russia and China are on the ball - their joint diplomacy and publicly united front in the UN and elsewhere are what enable them to both gain a lot of influence and respect though organisations such as BRICS and the SCO.
Were they bickering in public - countries in Africa, South America and Asia would definitely think twice before moving closer to them and forgoing some preferential terms or partnerships with the IMF and G7 instead.

Nor does China show any respect for intellectual property.

They're communists (nominally), why should they?

Persoanlly, I think their mentality, their obsession with "face" (ie status and pride) means that its not really possible for Russia to become real friends with them.

You have this sort of thing in all East Asian countries but I don't think it's all that important; at the end of the day they can be counted on to act as pragmatically as Russia. China right now is acting very pragmatically and diplomatically in relation to the wider-world; it's more careful to avoid conflicts and involvements in this or that than Russia is.

Natural alliances I believe are the CIS, India, Slavic Europe, and the more advanced European countries. And places like Brazil, Venezuela etc

The Europeans are obsessed with expansionism into the former USSR and the Middle East, and trying to interfere in Russia politically.
The Slavic Europeans are obsessed with their own Russophobia; enough said.
The CIS can be good but equally some countries like Uzbekistan, the Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, etc... are just too unpredictable, unstable or easily swayed - they can be counted on only to change their positions vis-a-vis Russia every few years; which of course does no-one any good in terms of trying to build long-term economic partnerships.
India and the South Americans are good partners and hold plenty of potential; the trouble is that they are just a lot further away and thus trade between Russia and them will never be as high as between Russia and the CIS, China or Europe.

As you can see, there are downsides to every one of these countries. And China too.
But on balance - China is no worse a partner for Russia than any of them.
Fortunately Russia is a very powerful country and we are not burdened with the decision to have to make a choice between one or the other. We can be partners with all of them at once.

Trade is fine (within reason), tech transfer and weakening the Russian position... NO THANKS!

A weakening of the Russian position for the sake of ANY one of our partners is unacceptable.
That sort of goes against the idea of partnership (i.e. mutual benefits and interests)

OK the gas deal is fine. Provided it doesn't take Russia away from doing things with Europe. The question is...what will Russia's long term relationship with China be like.

I'd like to be optimistic. No-one can say about 50-100 years from now; the world then will be a different place. But for the next 15-20 years it will probably be fine.

Regular wrote: China is cool until it starts copying Russian stuff and calling it their own and even better. Then it really pisses me off.

First I would like to tahnk for your replies.. growing topic eh..

See the thing is that China has been trying hard , really really hard to export their air defense , JF-17 , J-10 etc but not a single customer has applied or prepared to import this hardware.
If you access the situation going from 1995 to 2014 (almost 2 decades ) and yet no exports then ofcouse many chinese manufactures will be forced to "COPY" the specification of the original products adn sell those specifications.
There are hell lot of Chinese manufactureres doing the same , as they cannot depend on Chinese defence budget alone.
Chinese defence budget does not account for all the HW that those companies are developing..

OFF_TOPIC
This website is not working.. I am not able to access russiadefence.net
I am only able to access englishboard.net domain..I mean now only englishboard.net is working..
IS there some issue with that

The Russia-China Oil/Gas deal is more of a commercial nature , since both countries share a border and China needs huge amount of Gas and Oil and Russia has the same , its cheaper to build a pipeline and supply Oil and Gas to China and its cheaper compared to say transport Gas via Ships and build LNG Terminal.

India has similar deal with Russia in Sakhlin basin but it needs ships and LNG terminal at ports.

So there is nothing Evil about Russia-China Deal its more of mercantile. No one every Says China-US trading is evil and they are worth many hundred billion dollar.

As for China Invading Russia or something like that Nuclear Weapons make sure such things dont happen , No country can afford even few cities getting Nuked neither US nor China nor Russia that ensures Strategic Stability.

Power of Siberia this is the source where Chinese will receive their Gas

http://www.gazprom.com/about/production/projects/pipelines/ykv/

Asia has more money anyway, and tends to treat Russia with more respect than most of europe

Dangerous proposition. Part of the reason of Russ-China partnership is prevent Asian hegemony in 21st century.

Russia still maintains all the HELL of its currency reserves in Euro.

This factor also takes into account that Russia does not trust Asian banking and creeping Asian Power.

Hence as Russia does not have human resources to excel in many consumer industries, it has sided with China to compensate for

the huge loss of working man power.

GarryB wrote:There is plenty of potential man power in Russia, and with lots of work there the population will start to grow and it will solve itself.

Having a job and good job prospects provides the stability needed to have children...

There is nothing unique about Russian population. In developed countries birth rates drop significantly but there a few factors that affected Russia before. collapse of Soviet union and mass emigration.
For example young people in Moscow want to sort their life and career before starting pumping babies. Advanced and heavy industry does not require big population and Russia should excel by skill and not the numbers. Russia should be more worried about quality than quantity. Russian engineers, scientist are well known

Peace Mission 2013

Russian Air Force official inspecting J-10 aircraft.

Never been better throughout their history and advancing at fast pace


Putin to visit China twice this year

Russian, Chinese Leaders to Meet Five Times in 2014

Very interesting (to say the least).
Cooperation between Russia and China must be the FIRST thing that scares the living daylights out of the "democracy installing" engineers.
I'm sure they'll try their divide et impera tactics in this case as well, but it's now up to the leadership in both China and Russia to be smart.

And so far they've proven to be just that:

РИА Новости

Time will tell what follows next, but there are certainly interesting times ahead.

Apparently Putin and the Chinese comrades (including Jinping) shared a drink of vodka at Putin's 61st birthday which he celebrated at the APEC summit in Bali.

Good times  

ditto for me, russia would benefit a lot as the middleman between china and india. If these 2 countries grow strong, russia's position would be even more important as it would be the one to tip the scale if ever something bad happens.

i think China isn't such a reliable partner/ally as India. The past has shown differences and clashes with russia

Russian Foreign Minister to visit Beijing for talks with Chinese top-rank officials

Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov is expected to visit China Tuesday for talks with President Xi Jinping and Foreign Minister Wang Yi. He will also visit the Secretariat of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), with the SCO Secretary General, Dmitry Mezentsev, accompanying him. Sources at the Russian Foreign Ministry told Itar-Tass earlier Minister Lavrov and his Chinese hosts will discuss preparations for President Vladimir Putin’s visit of China later this year and the situation in Ukraine.

"Apart from a detailed discussion of preparations for the Russian President’s visit, the sides will consider a schedule of other important bilateral contacts," the Foreign Ministry spokespeople said.

In the autumn, Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang is due to visit Russia. A nineteenth regular meeting of the two countries’ Prime Ministers will be take place as part of the visit.

"Russian and Chinese Foreign Ministers will pay attention to cooperation on the international scene, as both Russia and China speak in favor of a just and democratic world order based on collective approaches, equitability, and commonly recognized norms and principles and principles of international law," a spokesman said.

"Given the current situation, the sides confirm understanding and respect for each other’s key interests, thus showing a non-timeserving character of Russian-Chinese relations," he said.

"Sergei Lavrov and Wang Yi will hold a detailed exchange of opinions on a broad spectrum of global and regional problems, including the situation in Syria and Afghanistan and will also take a look at the situation around Iran’s nuclear programs and developments on the Korean Peninsula," he said, adding that Russia and China have similar or identical approaches to the bulk of international problems and they hope to continue coordinating their foreign policy efforts in the closest possible manner.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_15/Russian-Foreign-Minister-to-visit-Beijing-for-talks-with-Chinese-top-rank-officials-4876/

George1 wrote:i think China isn't such a reliable partner/ally as India. The past has shown differences and clashes with russia

If we go by recent memory which powerful country outspokenly opposed ABM base proliferation on Russia's borders, and which country sent a warship to help Russia block an attempt by NATO to attack Syria? After you answer those questions, ask yourself this question...Is the geo-political landscape from the 1970's (where Russia and China were at odds) the same? Is Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Czech/Slovak Rep., Bulgaria, Yugoslav states still close military allies with Russia? If not, then would it be a smart idea to make enemies when it's not needed? Besides when the Chinese are so dependent on Russian engines for their jets fighters, it makes you wonder why people are so quick to label them and enemy of Russia.

The fact that they buy so many Russian jet engines means it's a sign of good-will and trust, and it also means that Russia has in-depth knowledge of the capabilities of Chinese jet fighters, and it means that if relations break-down than the spares and parts supply will be cut off...does that sound like a strategy of a country ready to pounce and take over Eastern Siberia?

^^^

Not only that, but remember that China joined Russia in an attempt to prevent the NATO bombardment of Serbia.
And suffered consequences for it (the accidental Embassy bombing).
Same goes for Libya, Syria etc.
China is a good and reliable partner, there's no doubt about that.

magnumcromagnon wrote:

George1 wrote:i think China isn't such a reliable partner/ally as India. The past has shown differences and clashes with russia

If we go by recent memory which powerful country outspokenly opposed ABM base proliferation on Russia's borders, and which country sent a warship to help Russia block an attempt by NATO to attack Syria? After you answer those questions, ask yourself this question...Is the geo-political landscape from the 1970's (where Russia and China were at odds) the same? Is Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Czech/Slovak Rep., Bulgaria, Yugoslav states still close military allies with Russia? If not, then would it be a smart idea to make enemies when it's not needed? Besides when the Chinese are so dependent on Russian engines for their jets fighters, it makes you wonder why people are so quick to label them and enemy of Russia.

The fact that they buy so many Russian jet engines means it's a sign of good-will and trust, and it also means that Russia has in-depth knowledge of the capabilities of Chinese jet fighters, and it means that if relations break-down than the spares and parts supply will be cut off...does that sound like a strategy of a country ready to pounce and take over Eastern Siberia?

Dont forget that china has tremendous needs for energy and for this reason they always have their "aim" in siberia..