Russian AIP submarine technology

Rmf wrote:could aditional rtg generator in 100kw range, using some advanced technologies thermionic ,stirling ,photovoltaic and thermovoltaic ,be used on conventional submarine. it would wok non-stop thus charging cells while submarine is still in position.

Singular_trafo wrote:

Rmf wrote:could aditional rtg generator in 100kw range, using some advanced technologies thermionic ,stirling ,photovoltaic and thermovoltaic ,be used on conventional submarine. it would wok non-stop thus charging cells while submarine is still in position.

If you use pu238 then the energy density of it is 470w/kg, it is the thermal.

Electricity generation will be somethign like 47-150 watt, later need boiling ,so noisy.

The pu238 more expensive than the weapon grade Pu238.

100 kW submarine grade (silent) RTG needs 200 kg of Pu238. It would cost more than the cost of a standard nuclear submarine.


alternative is to use Cs137 or Sr90, but this are gamma emitters ( Pu238 alpha emitter) , means it needs a lot of shielding.

Addiaionaly the raw metals and compounds/oxides are water souble, so it can do interesting stuff if the canister damaged.


A commercial reacor makes something like 30 kg of cs137/ GWeyear, means one VVER-1000 can generate enought material for three submarine continously.

Rmf wrote:

Singular_trafo wrote:

Rmf wrote:could aditional rtg generator in 100kw range, using some advanced technologies thermionic ,stirling ,photovoltaic and thermovoltaic ,be used on conventional submarine. it would wok non-stop thus charging cells while submarine is still in position.

If you use pu238 then the energy density of it is 470w/kg, it is the thermal.

Electricity generation will be somethign like 47-150 watt, later need boiling ,so noisy.

The pu238 more expensive than the weapon grade Pu238.

100 kW submarine grade (silent) RTG needs 200 kg of Pu238. It would cost more than the cost of a standard nuclear submarine.


alternative is to use Cs137 or Sr90, but this are gamma emitters ( Pu238 alpha emitter) , means it needs a lot of shielding.

Addiaionaly the raw metals and compounds/oxides are water souble, so it can do interesting stuff if the canister damaged.


A commercial reacor makes something like 30 kg of cs137/ GWeyear, means one VVER-1000 can generate enought material for three submarine continously.

i have found another element , polonium 210   http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/polonium.htm
it has decay rate of 140 days half-life , 3,5 months , just enough for usual submarine combat operations.
it has 120 w/g  or 120kw/kg ...
ofcourse thats thermal output , efficiency conversion is important if you can get 35%  thats 40 kw electricity per kilogram.!
termocouples used had low efficiency in 5-10% thats why they abandoned it , but thermo-photovoltaic that use infrared light have over 20% ,and modified stirling engine too, if you combine them you can get much better conversion efficiency.

conventional submarine always drains its batteries , human life support uses up to 100w per person , thats 5 kw for 50 people. computers ,bow sonar, tower sonar, side sonars ,that drains many kilowatts too.... i guess this advanced rtg concept would fit in very well.

Rmf wrote:ok wrong choise , i looked at some usual materials and how about cobalt it has civilian use , Co 60 , it has 17 w/gr .  60 grams for 1 kw of thermal energy. granted it has hard radiationg requires shielding but it could be done from couple of kg of cobalt. half life is in years.

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877] 

Isos wrote:

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877] 

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Singular_Transform wrote:

Isos wrote:

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877] 

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Not possible.
Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

Isos wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

Isos wrote:

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877] 

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Not possible.
Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

Isos wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

Isos wrote:

berhoum wrote:Hello I would want to know if we can install(settle) an anaerobic propulsion system (or AIP) on Submarines Kilo [636 / 877] 

Possible if you have money but they won't, Kilo's are pretty big to accomodate new systems. Most of them will be replace by kalina in the future which is an AIP subs design.

Not possible.
Cost should be as big as the cost of a new sub. Or more.

In theory it's possible. if he was asking if technicaly it's possible to do so then it's yes. But in reality like you said not possible. The cost would be much higher than a new sub as they would need to develop a new version of their AIP to put it into an old desgn not made to hold it.

GarryB wrote:AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

GarryB wrote:AFAIK the new AIP the Russians are developing use diesel fuel but not liquid o2.

A Hydrogen fuel cell needs hydrogen and oxygen to become H2O and generate electricity, but this new Russian system does not work that way.

The enormous advantage of the Russian system is that it uses Diesel... every port on the planet already has the ability to supply diesel to ships... what they don't have is the capacity to deliver and store hydrogen yet.

Rubin will need three years to develop a chemical VNEU

Russian developers are ready to make a chemical air-independent power plant (VNEU) within three years after the opening of the corresponding R&D. This was announced on Thursday, March 28, by Valentin Frolov, deputy general director of the TsBB MT Rubin, at the launch ceremony of the Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky diesel-electric submarine, the first in the Varshavyanok series for the Pacific Fleet.
He noted that currently this R&D work order is not open. “In the field of an air-independent power plant, we have obtained a great scientific and technical reserve,” added Valentin Frolov.
()
Earlier, the Russian Navy announced that they expected to receive a ready-made VNEU from Rubin in 2021-2022.

The second Pr.677 conventional submarine (improved Lada-class), the Kronstadt, was launched in Russia at the Admiralty Shipyards in St. Petersburg on 20 September 2018, the submarine being a Kalibr cruise missile carrier. The highly accurate and destructive power of this weapon was recently demonstrated by the Russian Navy during “counter-terrorist operations”, and combined the lowest level of hydroacoustic field with high detection ranges for onboard sensors of the carrier.

"It’s hard to overestimate the importance of this event. The submarine began to be built in 2005, and although there have been some pauses in financing and construction halts, this lag however has allowed us to use the experience gained in operating the (lead) submarine (of that class), the St.Petersburg. The Pr.677 underwater combatant outperforms its predecessor, the Pr. 636 (improved Kilo-class) diesel-electric submarine, in major manner. We believe that the Pr.677 will be future of the (Russian) Navy's diesel-electric underwater force and hope for a large series of the submarines (of that class)," stated Admiralty Shipyards CEO Alexander Buzakov during the ceremony.

Kronstadt to fourth generation of the Russian non-nuclear boats. The Pr. 677 and its export derivative Amur 1650 are meant to supersede the Kilo-class. Lada is more compact: with similar weapons composition (six torpedo tubes with weapons comprising 18 torpedoes and missiles), standard displacement is reduced from 2350 (for Pr. 636) to 1765 tons. Because of increased automation, crew numbers are reduced from 52 to 35 personnel. The Lada is equipped with sonar with quasi-conformal large-area antennae and towed array sonar that considerably surpasses series-produced sonars on the earlier Pr. 636 submarines.

Speaking at the ceremony during launch of the Kronstadt, Russian Admiral Viktor Chirkov said that due to their noise levels, the earlier Kilo-class submarines have been nicknamed ‘black hole’ by the western military. Trials of the new boats have demonstrated that their noise levels are several times (four or five, as per calculations of designers) lower than that of the Kilo-class. “Given that stealth of Lada-class submarines, which can be neither seen nor heard by the enemy, has increased, this submarine may be called an invisible creature,” he continued. “The new submarine enables us to make a step forward in developing state-of-the-art underwater fleet of Russia,” Viktor Chirkov summed up.

The Amur 1650 on offer to India has AIP based on fuel cells and the electrochemical generator will covert diesel fuel to produce hydrogen. Rubin Design Bureau CEO Igor Vilnit had earlier expressed his assurance to the Indian Navy, who are anxious to integrate indigenously produced AIP on own ships, would be helped or assistance provided for their development. Lada-class submarines for the Russian Navy are also planned to be equipped with AIP developed by the Rubin Design Bureau. The Pr. 677 leading ship, St.Petersburg, is now in service with the Russian Northern Fleet and

long-term sea trials conducted since the Russian Navy flag raising in 2010 have shown that submarines of this class are suitable for operations conditions of heavy traffic in the confined waters of the Baltic, as well as blue waters of the Barents Sea and the White Sea, with access to the North Atlantic. “St.Petersburg has not only proved its characteristics, but even outclassed them”, stated Igor Vilnit during launching ceremony of the Kronstadt.

The Kronstadt is being built as an improved Pr.677 design, the same as the third Lada-class submarine Velikiye Luki which is presently under construction at the Admiralty Shipyards. Kronstadt and Velikiye Luki have radically improved their propulsion, engineering control and navigation systems. Igor Vilnit said: “Kronstadt is superior to previous submarines in all technical parameters. Moreover, we have taken into account all required modifications of the lead submarine. Most of the series production equipment, which has passed all tests and complies with the stated technical characteristics, is now installed onboard the Kronstadt”.

The Kronstadt is planned to be commissioned in 2019 and the Velikiye Luki in 2021. According to the Russian State Armament programme, contracts for two more Pr. 677 submarines are to be issued by the Russian MoD during next year.

As Deputy Chief of the Russian Navy Shipbuilding Department, Captain 1 Rank Mikhail Krasnopeev, remarked: “The entire history of Admiralty Shipyards, starting from time of Peter the Great, testifies that the company is able to build unique ships. And today’s launch is a vivid confirmation of this. For Russian sailors, it is an honour to serve on such modern submarines”. He also emphasised that the Russian Navy would continue to actively develop the non-nuclear component of its submarine force. “We’ll work further to improve and induct new technologies in the construction of non-nuclear submarines, to improve the parameters of stealth and effectiveness of its armament. Special attention is paid to the training of submarines’ crews, as they will be operating the most modern equipment”, he said.

Photos by Dmitry Sokolov


The Lada-class submarine ‘St.Petersburg’ that is presently in service with the Russian Northern Fleet. Photo: Oleg Kuleshov


The Lada-class submarine ‘St.Petersburg’ that is presently in service with the Russian Northern Fleet. Photo: Oleg Kuleshov

Second Yasen-class nuclear submarine on sea trials

Russia’s improved Yasen-class submarine, Kazan, went for sea trials for the first time on 25 September, sailing out from Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk. Kazan is the second of the Yasen-class nuclear powered fast-attack submarines, but the first modernised vessel. The leading submarine of Project 885 Severodvinsk entered service on 17 June 2014, the next six ships in the series being built under improved Project 885M (Yasen-M), characterised by the optimised hull shape and upgraded electronic warfare and automation systems. Kazan was laid on 24 July 2009 and launched on 31 March 2017, is armed with Oniks and Kalibr cruise missiles. As per the Russian Ministry of Defence Spokesperson Yasen-class submarines have the capability to operate not only against ships but also to perform deterrence functions due to its missiles, stealth features and speed.

Photos: Oleg Kuleshov

P-750B with a displacement of about 1,450 tons belongs to the class of small submarines of coastal action. Its length is about 66 meters, width is about 7 meters, and the draft is about 5.2 meters. The maximum depth of immersion is 300 meters. The total underwater speed is 18 knots, the economic speed is 4 knots. Autonomy - up to 30 days, total cruising range - up to 4300 miles. The continuous submarine range, taking into account the VNEU, is up to 1,200 miles.

The power plant includes a closed-cycle gas turbine engine (two 400 kW each) and a 2500 kW rowing electric motor.

R&D Project of Anaerobic Powerplant for Russian Subs Starts in 2019, Official Said

The research and development (R&D) project of the air-independent powerplant for diesel electric submarines will be launched in 2019, the president of United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Alexey Rakhmanov announced on April 10 being interviewed by Mil.Press Today.

The USC director declined to specify which companies would be involved. "We’re going to see who will do that [perform the work – editor’s remark]", he added. Rakhmanov did not comment on the potential variant of the anaerobic plant to be selected either.

On March 28, the first deputy director of Rubin Design Bureau, Valentin Frolov, told Mil.Press Today that the relevant R&D project had not been opened yet. As for him, designers are ready to complete the chemical anaerobic powerplant within three years after launching of the R&D project.

Earlier on, on March 7, insiders of Mil.Press Today at the companies engaged in the project said the work was actually suspended due to underfunding.

As was reported on February 22, Russia offered India to buy the Amur-1650 diesel electric submarine (export version of Project 677 Lada) powered by the air-independent plant. According to Valery Plovinkin, head researcher at the Krylov State Research Center, India displayed interest in the powerplant project, being capable to provide the required investment. This would help the internal Russian project, too.
For reference

Key advantage of the anaerobic powerplant is improved acoustic discretion. The subs can stay submerged up to 2 or 3 weeks without surfacing for battery charge.

Russian leading submarine designers, Malachite and Rubin bureaus, are creating their versions of anaerobic powerplants; the Central Research Institute for Marine Electronics & Technology of Krylov Center is also involved in the project.

Malachite Design Bureau has been proactively working on the air-independent powerplant with closed-cycle gas turbine engine since 2010.

During the launching ceremony of the first in series Project 677 submarine Kronshtadt in September 2018, director general of Rubin Design Bureau, Igor Vilnit, said that development of the anaerobic powerplant was going as scheduled. Russian Navy planned to obtain the air-independent powerplant from Rubin bureau in 2021-2022. Project 677 Lada will be the basis for the new diesel subs powered by anaerobic plant.

Rubin Design Bureau Opened Project for Submarine Anaerobic Plant

Igor Vilnit, CEO at Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering officially confirmed launching of the research project on designing of an air-independent powerplant for conventional submarines. The works on the project are already underway, he added.

Earlier on, the president of United Shipbuilding Corporation, Aleksey Rakhmanov, told Mil.Press Today about the plans to open the R&D project for an anaerobic powerplant in 2019. First information about the beginning of works emerged in October.

Valentin Frolov, deputy director of Rubin Design Bureau told Mil.Press in March that the designers were ready to build a chemical anaerobic powerplant within three years upon opening of the R&D project.

For trial run of the air-independent powerplant, it is supposed to use the Project 677 (Lada-class) submarines. The option of using the anaerobic plant on the exported diesel sub Amur-1650 is under consideration as well. Among other customers, the sub is offered to India.