+21
Sujoy
jhelb
Tsavo Lion
dino00
flamming_python
Gibraltar
hoom
Singular_Transform
Isos
berhoum
GunshipDemocracy
Singular_trafo
Big_Gazza
Rmf
George1
Stealthflanker
mutantsushi
Austin
Cyberspec
Russian Patriot
GarryB
25 posters
Russian AIP submarine technology
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
Points : 5912
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
- Post n°76
Russian AIP technology
There is another SSK project with AIP: "P-750B" - the world's first non-volatile NPL
GarryB- Posts : 40541
Points : 41041
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°77
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
No. That is a sea plane... not a submarine.
I think you meant this link:
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/they/p750b--pervaia-v-mire-vozduhonezavisimaia-napl-5e105e48e6e8ef00b12d7c74
I think you meant this link:
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/they/p750b--pervaia-v-mire-vozduhonezavisimaia-napl-5e105e48e6e8ef00b12d7c74
Tsavo Lion- Posts : 5960
Points : 5912
Join date : 2016-08-15
Location : AZ, USA
- Post n°78
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
yes, it got mixed up, thx! this project may superseed the Kalina.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
Points : 41041
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°79
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
I doubt it... as far as I can tell it is a different sized version of the Lada design... they were talking about getting a foreign customer to invest in it to get it built...
It is quite an interesting vessel with a crew of just 20... remember to operate 24/7 that means three shifts of crew working 8 hour shifts with 8 hours on and 16 off, so it probably normally operates with an actual crew of about 6 who work for about 8 hours and then are relieved for the next 8 hours by another crew of 6 who work and then are relieved by another 6 crew who after their 8 hours by the first 6 crew again... that would be 18 men with the commander and second in command probably taking 12 hour shifts each so at any one time there would be 7 guys operating the ship and the remaining 13 will be resting or eating or sleeping...
With the modern processing power on board such a sub I would suspect during there free time there is potential for some awesome LAN games...
It is quite an interesting vessel with a crew of just 20... remember to operate 24/7 that means three shifts of crew working 8 hour shifts with 8 hours on and 16 off, so it probably normally operates with an actual crew of about 6 who work for about 8 hours and then are relieved for the next 8 hours by another crew of 6 who work and then are relieved by another 6 crew who after their 8 hours by the first 6 crew again... that would be 18 men with the commander and second in command probably taking 12 hour shifts each so at any one time there would be 7 guys operating the ship and the remaining 13 will be resting or eating or sleeping...
With the modern processing power on board such a sub I would suspect during there free time there is potential for some awesome LAN games...
Isos- Posts : 11602
Points : 11570
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°80
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Tsavo Lion wrote:yes, it got mixed up, thx! this project may superseed the Kalina.
It's a small sub for export. Nothing to do with Kalina.
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
- Post n°81
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
GarryB wrote:I doubt it... as far as I can tell it is a different sized version of the Lada design... they were talking about getting a foreign customer to invest in it to get it built...
In the link about this submarine that you have shared it states that this submarine does not need to climb to the surface for air intake, as it will be equipped with two innovative gas turbine engines that are not dependent on air from the atmosphere.
Is this a new technology that is being developed?
Isos wrote:It's a small sub for export. Nothing to do with Kalina.
Do you have any more information about this sub? Thanks.
Isos- Posts : 11602
Points : 11570
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°82
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Do you have any more information about this sub? Thanks
There is a thread about russian midget submarine in "russia navy" part of the forum where we talked about such subs.
You also have on google many articles about this sub. Here is one about the last p 750 design :
http://www.hisutton.com/Russian_P750B_Submarine_Design.html
Here is the video of this sub but half of the images are not the sub but other subs.
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
- Post n°83
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Isos wrote:
http://www.hisutton.com/Russian_P750B_Submarine_Design.html
So max crew is around 20. If Spetnaz are carried it means there will be fewer submariners, right?
Also, 12 torpedo tubes are carried in a frame which is lowered in to the outer hull from above. I'm unable to understand why this new design for the torpedo tubes?
GarryB- Posts : 40541
Points : 41041
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°84
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
In the link about this submarine that you have shared it states that this submarine does not need to climb to the surface for air intake, as it will be equipped with two innovative gas turbine engines that are not dependent on air from the atmosphere.
Is this a new technology that is being developed?
Not a link I posted but it is supposed to use some form of AIP... I have no idea what form of AIP it uses...
So max crew is around 20. If Spetnaz are carried it means there will be fewer submariners, right?
Probably not... the crew would be needed to operate the sub... they might carry less torpedos and armament perhaps.
Likely they would have subs especially intended to carry and deploy and/or recover special forces... AFAIK there is one Delta III SSBN converted to underwater "research".
They likely will have other smaller vessels too...
jhelb- Posts : 1095
Points : 1196
Join date : 2015-04-04
Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About
- Post n°85
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
GarryB wrote:Not a link I posted but it is supposed to use some form of AIP... I have no idea what form of AIP it uses...
I was referring to the link that you posted in one of your previous tweets. This one
GarryB wrote:No. That is a sea plane... not a submarine.
I think you meant this link:
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/they/p750b--pervaia-v-mire-vozduhonezavisimaia-napl-5e105e48e6e8ef00b12d7c74
That aside, 12 torpedo tubes are to be carried in a frame which will be lowered in to the outer hull from above. So where will they place the AIP? There won't be any room for it.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
Points : 41041
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°86
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
I was referring to the link that you posted in one of your previous tweets. This one
Sorry, I didn't really read the link in detail... you posted a link but it was directed to a different story on the same website... I noticed your error and posted the correct link to the story you were talking about, but I really didn't read in detail that link...
This sub is designed from the start to have AIP propulsion... it isn't an add on... it is part of standard equipment.
This sub is a reduced size Lada class sub... the Lada was supposed to have an AIP propulsion system included, but that has been delayed.
This Lada class sub called P750 or something has AIP built in to the design, but as far as I know it is for export to countries like India if they want it...
dino00- Posts : 1677
Points : 1714
Join date : 2012-10-12
Age : 37
Location : portugal
- Post n°87
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
This year, the St. Petersburg Maritime Bureau of Engineering "Malachite" will continue to test an air-independent power plant with a single gas turbine engine. This is stated in the company's annual report for 2019, published by the corporate disclosure center .
According to the developers, the installation allows the use of NAPL in all modes of surface and scuba diving with a smooth transition of the main gas turbine engine from the operating mode from atmospheric air to the closed loop operation mode and vice versa. In a closed cycle, a heavy artificial gas mixture is used.
The ability to supply shipboard electricity consumers and the battery charge will be provided in all modes.
It is noted that in the prototype model of VNEU the serial non-specialized gas-turbine generator unit GTA-18P is used. In 2019, it was finalized at the manufacturer, Chelyabinsk SCB Turbina JSC. Malachite announced the corresponding purchase in the summer of 2018. The cost of the work, according to the documentation of the procedure , amounted to 1.98 million rubles. After that, the tests were continued at the stand.
Technical solutions for the new VNEU are protected by two patents.
https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA11/
According to the developers, the installation allows the use of NAPL in all modes of surface and scuba diving with a smooth transition of the main gas turbine engine from the operating mode from atmospheric air to the closed loop operation mode and vice versa. In a closed cycle, a heavy artificial gas mixture is used.
The ability to supply shipboard electricity consumers and the battery charge will be provided in all modes.
It is noted that in the prototype model of VNEU the serial non-specialized gas-turbine generator unit GTA-18P is used. In 2019, it was finalized at the manufacturer, Chelyabinsk SCB Turbina JSC. Malachite announced the corresponding purchase in the summer of 2018. The cost of the work, according to the documentation of the procedure , amounted to 1.98 million rubles. After that, the tests were continued at the stand.
Technical solutions for the new VNEU are protected by two patents.
https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA11/
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dino00- Posts : 1677
Points : 1714
Join date : 2012-10-12
Age : 37
Location : portugal
- Post n°88
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
VNEU for submarines of the Russian Navy will be created in 2023
MOSCOW, July 24 - RIA Novosti. An air-independent (anaerobic) power plant (VNEU) for submarines of the Russian Navy will be created by the end of 2023, design work is currently underway, said Alexey Rakhmanov , General Director of the United Shipbuilding Corporation ( USC ) .
In October 2019, the Rubin Central Design Bureau (developer of VNEU) and the Ministry of Industry and Trade signed a state contract for the creation of a prototype shipboard VNEU.
"Design work is underway. However, a decision on the practical implementation of this technology in specific projects will be made only based on the results of the contract - not earlier than the end of 2023,
https://ria.ru/20200724/1574831721.html
MOSCOW, July 24 - RIA Novosti. An air-independent (anaerobic) power plant (VNEU) for submarines of the Russian Navy will be created by the end of 2023, design work is currently underway, said Alexey Rakhmanov , General Director of the United Shipbuilding Corporation ( USC ) .
In October 2019, the Rubin Central Design Bureau (developer of VNEU) and the Ministry of Industry and Trade signed a state contract for the creation of a prototype shipboard VNEU.
"Design work is underway. However, a decision on the practical implementation of this technology in specific projects will be made only based on the results of the contract - not earlier than the end of 2023,
https://ria.ru/20200724/1574831721.html
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
Points : 2575
Join date : 2012-04-02
Location : India || भारत
- Post n°89
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Russia's new Project 750B - AIP submarine
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/08/russias-p-750b-small-attack-submarine-design-by-malakhit-design-bureau-part-1/
This is probably a step in the direction of AIP. Will it sell? We'll have to wait and see.
That being said a bigger deal, in my opinion, is the pump-jet. If Malakhit has developed an in-house pump-jet design, and it's not just a promotional mock-up, Yasen-M SSN can be modified with a pump-jet later for improved shallow-water operations.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/08/russias-p-750b-small-attack-submarine-design-by-malakhit-design-bureau-part-1/
This is probably a step in the direction of AIP. Will it sell? We'll have to wait and see.
That being said a bigger deal, in my opinion, is the pump-jet. If Malakhit has developed an in-house pump-jet design, and it's not just a promotional mock-up, Yasen-M SSN can be modified with a pump-jet later for improved shallow-water operations.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4896
Points : 4886
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
- Post n°90
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
FFS... not this "pump-jet-is-better" BS again...
Yasens don't need a pumpjet as they can cruise at a depth where cavitation doesn't occur at the prop edges. Pump jets introduce performance penalties, so why use them if they aren't needed?
Yasens don't need a pumpjet as they can cruise at a depth where cavitation doesn't occur at the prop edges. Pump jets introduce performance penalties, so why use them if they aren't needed?
Sujoy- Posts : 2417
Points : 2575
Join date : 2012-04-02
Location : India || भारत
- Post n°91
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Pump jets for shallow water operations. In case that was not clear.
Isos- Posts : 11602
Points : 11570
Join date : 2015-11-06
- Post n°92
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Russia has pump jet for kilo and Borei.
They know very well if they should mount it on Yasen. So they choosed no for a reason... even impr kilo aren't getting them.
They know very well if they should mount it on Yasen. So they choosed no for a reason... even impr kilo aren't getting them.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4896
Points : 4886
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
- Post n°93
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Sujoy wrote:Pump jets for shallow water operations. In case that was not clear.
Sure, I get that, and don't get me wrong, I think SSBNs should be fitted with them as a standard, but no decent SSN should need them, and SSKs will wear too much of a performance penalty IMHO and they lack the abundance of power that SSNs can lay down.
kvs- Posts : 15857
Points : 15992
Join date : 2014-09-11
Location : Turdope's Kanada
- Post n°94
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
The usual Russians are too stupid to know of pump jets and how to build them. Like the retarded bitching about winglets on the tips of Sukhoi Superject wings.
The morons don't even understand that the Superjet uses custom thin aoerofoil wings. The Russian designers of these craft know exactly what they are doing.
The average forum poster knows Jack shit.
The morons don't even understand that the Superjet uses custom thin aoerofoil wings. The Russian designers of these craft know exactly what they are doing.
The average forum poster knows Jack shit.
owais.usmani- Posts : 1825
Points : 1821
Join date : 2019-03-27
Age : 38
- Post n°95
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Big_Gazza wrote:FFS... not this "pump-jet-is-better" BS again...
Yasens don't need a pumpjet as they can cruise at a depth where cavitation doesn't occur at the prop edges. Pump jets introduce performance penalties, so why use them if they aren't needed?
Project 885 can almost certainly dive deeper than any of the NATO nuclear subs (Wiki says 600m), however for firing its cruise missiles it would have to come near the water surface.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4896
Points : 4886
Join date : 2014-08-25
Location : Melbourne, Australia
- Post n°96
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
owais.usmani wrote:Big_Gazza wrote:FFS... not this "pump-jet-is-better" BS again...
Yasens don't need a pumpjet as they can cruise at a depth where cavitation doesn't occur at the prop edges. Pump jets introduce performance penalties, so why use them if they aren't needed?
Project 885 can almost certainly dive deeper than any of the NATO nuclear subs (Wiki says 600m), however for firing its cruise missiles it would have to come near the water surface.
Sure, but it can ascend from a deep cruising depth at a slow speed and thereby remain silent. It doesn't need pumpjets except if trying to maintain a high speed at shallow depth, and there is zero reason why a 885 should need to do this.
GarryB- Posts : 40541
Points : 41041
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°97
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
The Russians have extensively tested a single Kilo class sub with a pumpjet. They have used them on some and not on others which suggests they are familiar with their features and advantages and disadvantages and know when they will be useful and when not.
The fact that every single Kilo is not now fitted with a pumpjet suggests a screw is better for its missions.
BTW another factor people seem to be ignoring is teh extensive plastic rubbish in the worlds oceans... an issue with propellers everywhere but I would assume rather more of a problem for a pumpjet...
The fact that every single Kilo is not now fitted with a pumpjet suggests a screw is better for its missions.
BTW another factor people seem to be ignoring is teh extensive plastic rubbish in the worlds oceans... an issue with propellers everywhere but I would assume rather more of a problem for a pumpjet...
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Sujoy- Posts : 2417
Points : 2575
Join date : 2012-04-02
Location : India || भारत
- Post n°98
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Certain western reports like this one written by H I Sutton suggests that Russia will jointly develop a submarine with China.GarryB wrote:The Russians have extensively tested a single Kilo class sub with a pumpjet. They have used them on some and not on others which suggests they are familiar with their features and advantages and disadvantages and know when they will be useful and when not.
The fact that every single Kilo is not now fitted with a pumpjet suggests a screw is better for its missions.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/08/27/china-and-russia-in-mysterious-new-submarine-project/#7fcbbf261629
This basically confirms several reports that countries in Asia that purchased submarines from China are no pleased with their performance. I suspect this is why China needs Russian help. If they jointly develop a submarine maybe they can export it as well.
This project will probably be similar to the Lada class.
william.boutros- Posts : 178
Points : 180
Join date : 2015-08-13
- Post n°99
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
Sujoy wrote:Certain western reports like this one written by H I Sutton suggests that Russia will jointly develop a submarine with China.GarryB wrote:The Russians have extensively tested a single Kilo class sub with a pumpjet. They have used them on some and not on others which suggests they are familiar with their features and advantages and disadvantages and know when they will be useful and when not.
The fact that every single Kilo is not now fitted with a pumpjet suggests a screw is better for its missions.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/08/27/china-and-russia-in-mysterious-new-submarine-project/#7fcbbf261629
This basically confirms several reports that countries in Asia that purchased submarines from China are no pleased with their performance. I suspect this is why China needs Russian help. If they jointly develop a submarine maybe they can export it as well.
This project will probably be similar to the Lada class.
The latest small Su-35 sale proves this cooperation is not in the interest of Russia.
flamming_python- Posts : 9547
Points : 9605
Join date : 2012-01-30
- Post n°100
Re: Russian AIP submarine technology
william.boutros wrote:Sujoy wrote:Certain western reports like this one written by H I Sutton suggests that Russia will jointly develop a submarine with China.GarryB wrote:The Russians have extensively tested a single Kilo class sub with a pumpjet. They have used them on some and not on others which suggests they are familiar with their features and advantages and disadvantages and know when they will be useful and when not.
The fact that every single Kilo is not now fitted with a pumpjet suggests a screw is better for its missions.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/08/27/china-and-russia-in-mysterious-new-submarine-project/#7fcbbf261629
This basically confirms several reports that countries in Asia that purchased submarines from China are no pleased with their performance. I suspect this is why China needs Russian help. If they jointly develop a submarine maybe they can export it as well.
This project will probably be similar to the Lada class.
The latest small Su-35 sale proves this cooperation is not in the interest of Russia.
They bought 24 as I recall
Which is a decent profit. Every other country that has shown interest in the Su-35 so far FYI has opted for less
Splitting the expertise and costs on a new sub sounds like a good idea to me.