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    Future russian aircraft carriers. #1

    medo
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    Post  medo Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:35 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Even without the aircraft carrier, india is still faster than russia in modern destroyer development. The first of the 4 or so stealth Kolkata class is being comissioned this year while russia is still struggling with frigates. Lets  hope the long russian delay on destroyer building isn't in vain, a 3-4 fold increase of performance to the Kolkata should be expected for the future russian destroyer.

    You have to ask first on some questions, before you start comparing. Does Russia need natural resources or need to defend ideology around the World? No, they have all needed natural resources at home and Russia is no more communist state with a need to protect communist ideology around the World. Without global aspirations, they don't need big ships for global domination. Also Russia have fleets in locked small seas like Baltic, Black Sea and Caspian sea, so no need for big ships for them, land based aircraft cover whole seas to defend. Northern fleet have small window of warm sea between Murmansk and Arctic ice, which could be covered by smaller ships and land based aircraft. Bigger ships they need are for protect Arctic region and for supplies of Arctic units on islands. Pacific fleet is wider to protect, there they need larger ships, specially as in winter Pacific sea is also covered with ice. With placing of air regiments on Sakhalin, Kamchatka, Nakhodka, Habarovsk, Magadan, etc, aircraft could cover the region from ground bases. Maybe they need 1 carrier to patrol between Vladivostok, Kuril Islands and Chukotka.

    India on the other hand have to import natural resources, so India have bigger need to have bigger ships like destroyers and carriers to protect imports of natural resources.

    Kolkata destroyer is bigger ship, what means longer endurance on the sea, but considering armament or electronics, Gorshkov frigate is more capable with longer range Klub missiles and better air defense with new naval Vityaz complex.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:29 pm

    medo wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Even without the aircraft carrier, india is still faster than russia in modern destroyer development. The first of the 4 or so stealth Kolkata class is being comissioned this year while russia is still struggling with frigates. Lets  hope the long russian delay on destroyer building isn't in vain, a 3-4 fold increase of performance to the Kolkata should be expected for the future russian destroyer.

    You have to ask first on some questions, before you start comparing. Does Russia need natural resources or need to defend ideology around the World? No, they have all needed natural resources at home and Russia is no more communist state with a need to protect communist ideology around the World. Without global aspirations, they don't need big ships for global domination. Also Russia have fleets in locked small seas like Baltic, Black Sea and Caspian sea, so no need for big ships for them, land based aircraft cover whole seas to defend. Northern fleet have small window of warm sea between Murmansk and Arctic ice, which could be covered by smaller ships and land based aircraft. Bigger ships they need are for protect Arctic region and for supplies of Arctic units on islands. Pacific fleet is wider to protect, there they need larger ships, specially as in winter Pacific sea is also covered with ice. With placing of air regiments on Sakhalin, Kamchatka, Nakhodka, Habarovsk, Magadan, etc, aircraft could cover the region from ground bases. Maybe they need 1 carrier to patrol between Vladivostok, Kuril Islands and Chukotka.

    India on the other hand have to import natural resources, so India have bigger need to have bigger ships like destroyers and carriers to protect imports of natural resources.

    Kolkata destroyer is bigger ship, what means longer endurance on the sea, but considering armament or electronics, Gorshkov frigate is more capable with longer range Klub missiles and better air defense with new naval Vityaz complex.

    I can't give negative or positive votes so see my "thanks" as a positive vote.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:59 am

    If aircraft carriers are not necessary then why bother with the Russian Air Force?

    Why not save a fortune and just have SAMs and ground based radar instead of silly manned aircraft that can get shot down.

    At the end of the day the Army is equipped with SAMs in a way that allows it to operate even if it doesn't have air support, but that doesn't mean that its performance would not be greatly enhanced with the addition of air power.

    The same can be said for the navy... if the biggest threat to a carrier is aircraft then don't you think it makes sense to have your own aircraft with you?
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:If aircraft carriers are not necessary then why bother with the Russian Air Force?

    Why not save a fortune and just have SAMs and ground based radar instead of silly manned aircraft that can get shot down.

    At the end of the day the Army is equipped with SAMs in a way that allows it to operate even if it doesn't have air support, but that doesn't mean that its performance would not be greatly enhanced with the addition of air power.

    The same can be said for the navy... if the biggest threat to a carrier is aircraft then don't you think it makes sense to have your own aircraft with you?
    They aren't.... However, that doesn't mean you should get rid of them, at least not yet. 

    Aircraft are more flexible, can engage subs etc. - They are still worth something, but that isn't what I'm arguing against...

    Exactly, but Russia doesn't need 10 friggin' carriers for crying out loud! - They could use three, and any more would be waste. 

    I'd say the biggest threat to a carrier isn't aircraft, as the carriers is obviously filled with aircraft itself. It would turn into an air-battle in which the carrier convoy assists in fighting the enemy aircraft. - AKA, it would turn into a bloody mess... Subs would go more unchallenged.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:46 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:If aircraft carriers are not necessary then why bother with the Russian Air Force?

    Why not save a fortune and just have SAMs and ground based radar instead of silly manned aircraft that can get shot down.

    At the end of the day the Army is equipped with SAMs in a way that allows it to operate even if it doesn't have air support, but that doesn't mean that its performance would not be greatly enhanced with the addition of air power.

    The same can be said for the navy... if the biggest threat to a carrier is aircraft then don't you think it makes sense to have your own aircraft with you?
    They aren't.... However, that doesn't mean you should get rid of them, at least not yet. 

    Aircraft are more flexible, can engage subs etc. - They are still worth something, but that isn't what I'm arguing against...

    Exactly, but Russia doesn't need 10 friggin' carriers for crying out loud! - They could use three, and any more would be waste. 

    I'd say the biggest threat to a carrier isn't aircraft, as the carriers is obviously filled with aircraft itself. It would turn into an air-battle in which the carrier convoy assists in fighting the enemy aircraft. - AKA, it would turn into a bloody mess... Subs would go more unchallenged.

    Which indicates that next-gen carriers should be modular enough were there's space for future improvement such as the ability to launch mini-submarine drones (diesel-electric with a 1000 km endurance), with the capacity to hold 10 or 20, for surveillance, attack and suicide missions. The Russians have developed a electromagnetic catapult, which indicates they want to create a megacarrier which I hope is in the 100,000 -110,000 ton displacement range. It should not just be a pure carrier, but a hybrid carrier and battle cruiser with 50 UKSK launchers, and 50 Redut launchers, with to 20 multipurpose mini-submarine drones attached near the base of the hull. With 50 Redut and UKSK launchers, and 20 multipurpose mini-submarines drones you could probably cut down on the total number ships in a carrier battle group, because creating and maintaining all those ships in a "US-style battle group" is extremely expensive. 4 modular hybrid 110,000 ton carriers is the ideal number, and anymore carriers would become too expensive too quickly!
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:21 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:If aircraft carriers are not necessary then why bother with the Russian Air Force?

    Why not save a fortune and just have SAMs and ground based radar instead of silly manned aircraft that can get shot down.

    At the end of the day the Army is equipped with SAMs in a way that allows it to operate even if it doesn't have air support, but that doesn't mean that its performance would not be greatly enhanced with the addition of air power.

    The same can be said for the navy... if the biggest threat to a carrier is aircraft then don't you think it makes sense to have your own aircraft with you?
    They aren't.... However, that doesn't mean you should get rid of them, at least not yet. 

    Aircraft are more flexible, can engage subs etc. - They are still worth something, but that isn't what I'm arguing against...

    Exactly, but Russia doesn't need 10 friggin' carriers for crying out loud! - They could use three, and any more would be waste. 

    I'd say the biggest threat to a carrier isn't aircraft, as the carriers is obviously filled with aircraft itself. It would turn into an air-battle in which the carrier convoy assists in fighting the enemy aircraft. - AKA, it would turn into a bloody mess... Subs would go more unchallenged.

    Which indicates that next-gen carriers should be modular enough were there's space for future improvement such as the ability to launch mini-submarine drones (diesel-electric with a 1000 km endurance), with the capacity to hold 10 or 20, for surveillance, attack and suicide missions. The Russians have developed a electromagnetic catapult, which indicates they want to create a megacarrier which I hope is in the 100,000 -110,000 ton displacement range. It should not just be a pure carrier, but a hybrid carrier and battle cruiser with 50 UKSK launchers, and 50 Redut launchers, with to 20 multipurpose mini-submarine drones attached near the base of the hull. With 50 Redut and UKSK launchers, and 20 multipurpose mini-submarines drones you could probably cut down on the total number ships in a carrier battle group, because creating and maintaining all those ships in a "US-style battle group" is extremely expensive. 4 modular hybrid 110,000 ton carriers is the ideal number, and anymore carriers would become too expensive too quickly!
    I'd love to see that, but I doubt it would be built anytime soon... I like the idea of a Gorshkov-like carrier/cruiser combo that could be a "mega-carrier" in size. Like you said, a hundred total VLS missiles would provide great offensive/defensive capability... Add a few Pantsir-M CIWS systems, and it would be close to indestructible. Maybe the convoy could include a sub along with a "Leader" (?). That way the group isn't "too big" and doesn't "use" a lot of ships that could be elsewhere while still providing adequate protection for the carrier.

    "Mini-subs" are a thing of dreams... That would take up too much space internally, and would produce much more hydrodynamic drag externally. - Then you get to the added cost, complexity, weight, and dev. time and you get a mess... If it has a 1000 km range, it would need to be pretty darn large! 

    Modular carriers are great, how about having "common modules" that can be used on the next-next-gen cruisers, destroyers, carriers and maybe smaller variants for frigates and corvettes etc. 

    110,000 t is too big IMHO. It would take a decade to produce, and the cost would be enormous! Somewhere closer to 80,000 t maximum is better.

    4 would be great, but would need to be acquired over a large period of time...
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    Post  Firebird Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:46 pm

    Its a perculiar principle, but as a ship gets volumetrically bigger, its internal capacity goes up exponentially.
    THats why oil tankers are actually ginormously big. Relatively speaking, you get more capacity for your steel, as you get bigger.

    The downside, in naval doctrine terms, is that you're putting all your eggs in one basket. And its easier to target one mega-battlecruiser, aircraft carrier-submarine carrier combo than 3 or so individual ships.

    I suppose it all depends on who your enemy is. Personally, I'm a little puzzled as to why we dont have submarine aircraft carriers (bearing in mind Japan had them in the Gr Patriotic War. There's also possible airship aircraft carriers. Or multiple ships joining together to provide a runway.

    The big issue for the Ru navy is whether it goes for a simple straightforward 65k to 85k tonner, up to current standards.
    Or goes for a next generation carrier that has stuff rival navies never even thought of (air-space-underwater sub-drone facilities etc). There's an interview online somewhere but I'm not sure where, where a Russian admiral outlines the options and how they were lukewarm about some run of the mill ideas by the naval architects.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:05 am

    Exactly, but Russia doesn't need 10 friggin' carriers for crying out loud! - They could use three, and any more would be waste.

    Who said anything about 10 carriers?

    they wouldn't have enough ships to form 10 carrier groups let alone have the support ships to support them... they aren't the US Navy.

    . Subs would go more unchallenged.

    Every Russian vessel is fitted with at least one UKSK launcher... each of which can carry at most 8 anti submarine missiles with torpedo payloads.

    An aircraft carrier means range of vision and range of reach so not only can you detect things further away, you can attack them further away... why would any sailor not want that?

    Subs are useful, but subs without carrier support are vulnerable to air power.

    The Russians have developed a electromagnetic catapult, which indicates they want to create a megacarrier which I hope is in the 100,000 -110,000 ton displacement range.

    Such a carrier would cost 8-10 billion and be expensive to operate.

    Much better to keep to the 50-60K ton range to reduce purchase costs and operating costs.

    such as the ability to launch mini-submarine drones (diesel-electric with a 1000 km endurance), with the capacity to hold 10 or 20, for surveillance, attack and suicide missions.

    Why waste space on an aircraft carrier for submarine UUVs? Put them on specialised ships... a ship custom designed for unmanned drones could drag a tethered airship for 24/7 surveillance, it could have a 50m flight deck for UCAVs, and could carry and manage your drones.

    Fit it with 8 Pantsirs and 1 Duets and Morfei and Redut for air defence and PAKET for self defence from subs.

    The Russians have developed a electromagnetic catapult, which indicates they want to create a megacarrier which I hope is in the 100,000 -110,000 ton displacement range.

    The best use for EM cats is to allow heavier aircraft like AEW aircraft to be carried, plus medium transports and tankers.

    Things that make things easier and faster.

    It should not just be a pure carrier, but a hybrid carrier and battle cruiser with 50 UKSK launchers, and 50 Redut launchers, with to 20 multipurpose mini-submarine drones attached near the base of the hull. With 50 Redut and UKSK launchers, and 20 multipurpose mini-submarines drones you could probably cut down on the total number ships in a carrier battle group, because creating and maintaining all those ships in a "US-style battle group" is extremely expensive. 4 modular hybrid 110,000 ton carriers is the ideal number, and anymore carriers would become too expensive too quickly!

    Personally, I think having 40 PAK FA on board would be rather more valuable than all the drones and other items you are suggesting for the carrier. I don't disagree with the idea of drones, but I think a dedicated mother ship would be a better idea.

    For the sub drones perhaps a reactivated Akula (Typhoon) could be the mother ship for lots of a variety of drones, both armed and unarmed.. for exploration and special forces use.

    4 would be great, but would need to be acquired over a large period of time...

    I would expect the four they will build will be built from now until 2050, with the K getting a serious upgrade within the next few years and then the first new carrier starting building in the early 2020s, with it in active service by 2028 or so. Making it modular means that by the time the second is built any improvements in design can be applied to both carriers. By the time the third carrier is built the K will likely be retired or sold off and the fourth new carrier will be the 4th Russian carrier in service.

    They certainly don't need 10 carriers and they certainly don't need 100K ton white elephants.
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    Post  Mike E Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:18 am

    Firebird wrote:Its a perculiar principle, but as a ship gets volumetrically bigger, its internal capacity goes up exponentially.
    THats why oil tankers are actually ginormously big. Relatively speaking, you get more capacity  for  your steel, as you get bigger.

    The downside, in naval doctrine terms, is that you're putting all your eggs in one basket. And its easier to target one mega-battlecruiser, aircraft carrier-submarine carrier combo than 3 or so individual ships.

    I suppose it all depends on who your enemy is. Personally, I'm a little puzzled as to why we dont have submarine aircraft carriers (bearing in mind Japan had them in the Gr Patriotic War. There's also possible airship aircraft carriers. Or multiple ships joining together to provide a runway.

    The big issue for the Ru navy is whether it goes for a simple straightforward 65k to 85k tonner, up to current standards.
    Or goes for a next generation carrier that has stuff rival navies never even thought of (air-space-underwater sub-drone facilities etc). There's an interview online somewhere but I'm not sure where, where a Russian admiral outlines the options and how they were lukewarm about some run of the mill ideas by the naval architects.
    Still not large enough to carry 20 mini-subs.... 

    Not really... They would continue to develop and manufacture smaller ships, while building the carrier via quicker and cheaper modular processes. It's not like they'd be building them all at once, for all I care they could lay one down every 5 years or so. - Getting four laid down in 20 years, with all of them being completed in 25 (assuming the production process takes 5 years as well).

    Japan didn't really have them, it was a sub with a couple planes strapped on... I still would rather have Russia focusing on subs, but whatever floats your boat (........)!

    I could see it being around 80-85 t empty. That would put it all nearly twice the size of Big K, meaning it could probably hold twice the aircraft, all while not being "too-big" like the Ford. Of course it would need to be NUCLEER', with 100 or so VLS cells placed around the ship. - I'm thinking that they could build one or two of these, and multiple smaller ones that are the size of the Big K. They could use knowledge from the production of the Mistral (which is somewhat modular, or so I've heard) to double it in displacement with a full catapult system and the like. That way you get a larger number of carriers, each one formidable, while keeping them somewhat "cheap" and also having a mega-carrier or two. Based off of the price of the Mistral's, included extra $ for the adaptation to a much larger carrier etc, the price should be somewhere close to 2 billion a pop (extra money towards R&D and other weapons included). - Not bad considering that it would be a new development and the fact that it is a carrier... A entire Nimitz (100 t) costs 6 billion $, so the larger model would be close the that...
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    Post  Mike E Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:24 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Exactly, but Russia doesn't need 10 friggin' carriers for crying out loud! - They could use three, and any more would be waste.

    Who said anything about 10 carriers?

    they wouldn't have enough ships to form 10 carrier groups let alone have the support ships to support them... they aren't the US Navy.

    . Subs would go more unchallenged.

    Every Russian vessel is fitted with at least one UKSK launcher... each of which can carry at most 8 anti submarine missiles with torpedo payloads.

    An aircraft carrier means range of vision and range of reach so not only can you detect things further away, you can attack them further away... why would any sailor not want that?

    Subs are useful, but subs without carrier support are vulnerable to air power.

    The Russians have developed a electromagnetic catapult, which indicates they want to create a megacarrier which I hope is in the 100,000 -110,000 ton displacement range.

    Such a carrier would cost 8-10 billion and be expensive to operate.

    Much better to keep to the 50-60K ton range to reduce purchase costs and operating costs.

    such as the ability to launch mini-submarine drones (diesel-electric with a 1000 km endurance), with the capacity to hold 10 or 20, for surveillance, attack and suicide missions.

    Why waste space on an aircraft carrier for submarine UUVs? Put them on specialised ships... a ship custom designed for unmanned drones could drag a tethered airship for 24/7 surveillance, it could have a 50m flight deck for UCAVs, and could carry and manage your drones.

    Fit it with 8 Pantsirs and 1 Duets and Morfei and Redut for air defence and PAKET for self defence from subs.

    The Russians have developed a electromagnetic catapult, which indicates they want to create a megacarrier which I hope is in the 100,000 -110,000 ton displacement range.

    The best use for EM cats is to allow heavier aircraft like AEW aircraft to be carried, plus medium transports and tankers.

    Things that make things easier and faster.

    It should not just be a pure carrier, but a hybrid carrier and battle cruiser with 50 UKSK launchers, and 50 Redut launchers, with to 20 multipurpose mini-submarine drones attached near the base of the hull. With 50 Redut and UKSK launchers, and 20 multipurpose mini-submarines drones you could probably cut down on the total number ships in a carrier battle group, because creating and maintaining all those ships in a "US-style battle group" is extremely expensive. 4 modular hybrid 110,000 ton carriers is the ideal number, and anymore carriers would become too expensive too quickly!

    Personally, I think having 40 PAK FA on board would be rather more valuable than all the drones and other items you are suggesting for the carrier. I don't disagree with the idea of drones, but I think a dedicated mother ship would be a better idea.

    For the sub drones perhaps a reactivated Akula (Typhoon) could be the mother ship for lots of a variety of drones, both armed and unarmed.. for exploration and special forces use.

    4 would be great, but would need to be acquired over a large period of time...

    I would expect the four they will build will be built from now until 2050, with the K getting a serious upgrade within the next few years and then the first new carrier starting building in the early 2020s, with it in active service by 2028 or so. Making it modular means that by the time the second is built any improvements in design can be applied to both carriers. By the time the third carrier is built the K will likely be retired or sold off and the fourth new carrier will be the 4th Russian carrier in service.

    They certainly don't need 10 carriers and they certainly don't need 100K ton white elephants.
    Myself.... Simply suggesting that large numbers of large carriers is a mess....

    Magnum and I agree that the ships themselves should be adequately armed, so that they can get away with either a small convoy or none at all.

    I mean that *Russian subs* would have a much better chance at attacking carriers than *Russian aircraft*. Subs don't really need carrier support as much as they need surface combatant support. - They can stay behind, but still protect the air and sea while the sub(s) can do their thing.

    Agreed, I think that a much enlarged Mistral would be plausible. - Affordable too (in carrier terms).

    PAK-FA's are great, but having both offensive missiles and defensive ones, along with 35 PAK-FA's (space reasons) would be better IMHO.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:00 pm

    Can radar aircraft such as the E-2C Hawkeye detect surface threats aswell ( Enemy strike groups )?
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    Post  Mike E Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:44 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Can radar aircraft such as the E-2C Hawkeye detect surface threats aswell ( Enemy strike groups )?
    Don't think so, they are built for detecting air targets only.
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    Post  George1 Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:18 pm

    The new Russian aircraft carrier will join the Russian Navy after 2030
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    Post  Mike E Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:32 pm

    George1 wrote:The new Russian aircraft carrier will join the Russian Navy after 2030
    That would be great... By then all the Leaders (most of them) and Yasen's will be in service, allowing the new carrier to be well-protected... Typically Russia doesn't really consider carrier groups (unlike the US) as the (a) carrier is used defensively, but a single Leader would do wonders to ensure its safety... On a side note, the K should be able to last until then as well as long as it gets its needed modernization... If not, Russia might be carrier-less for a couple of years.
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:07 pm

    George1 wrote:The new Russian aircraft carrier will join the Russian Navy after 2030

    It will have to happen sooner than 2030. They were talking about looking into it in around 2020, and that is already stretching things. So I would imagine they would push its development sooner than 2030 or unless, helicopter carriers will be given priority.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:23 am

    In English.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/euruope/2014-10/26/c_127140899.htm
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    Post  George1 Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:35 pm

    Crimean authorities have proposed to build aircraft carriers
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:57 pm

    Isn't that impossible because of the Bosporus?
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:10 am

    Flyingdutchman wrote:Isn't that impossible because of the Bosporus?

    Admiral Kuznetsov and Varyag were both built in Nikolavev (now in ZOG-ruled Ukraine) and they were obviously able to transit the Bosporus. I'm not sure of the treaty terms (have to look it up) but it may not prohibit the passage of still-to-be commissioned carriers. I expect that they can be built in Crimea, but then sailed to elsewhere (eg the St Petersberg yards) for final fit-out and equipping of the air-wing.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:32 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Isn't that impossible because of the Bosporus?

    Admiral Kuznetsov and Varyag were both built in Nikolavev (now in ZOG-ruled Ukraine) and they were obviously able to transit the Bosporus.  I'm not sure of the treaty terms (have to look it up) but it may not prohibit the passage of still-to-be commissioned carriers.  I expect that they can be built in Crimea, but then sailed to elsewhere (eg the St Petersberg yards) for final fit-out and equipping of the air-wing.

    That was because they are officially not Aircraft Carriers but are classified as "heavy aircraft carrying cruiser".
    Because of this they were able to pass through the Bosporus Wink.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:34 pm

    What other major shipyard in Russia capable of constructing ship with the same magnitude as Kuznetsov or cancelled Ulyanovsk ?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:37 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Isn't that impossible because of the Bosporus?

    Admiral Kuznetsov and Varyag were both built in Nikolavev (now in ZOG-ruled Ukraine) and they were obviously able to transit the Bosporus.  I'm not sure of the treaty terms (have to look it up) but it may not prohibit the passage of still-to-be commissioned carriers.  I expect that they can be built in Crimea, but then sailed to elsewhere (eg the St Petersberg yards) for final fit-out and equipping of the air-wing.

    That was because they are officially not Aircraft Carriers but are classified as "heavy aircraft carrying cruiser".
    Because of this they were able to pass through the Bosporus Wink.

    Having an aircraft carrier in the Black Sea would be a waste of time and resources, Russia already has Crimea near the Western/Central End of the Black Sea, as well as Sochi on the Eastern end of the Black Sea as territory to launch aircraft, that alone would make it orders of magnitude more useful when it comes to controlling naval affairs of the Black Sea than any carrier you could have in the Black Sea (including even new generation of US 110K ton mega carriers). BTW future Russian carriers will still be Carrier/Cruiser hybrids with several UKSK and Redut launchers.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:03 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Flyingdutchman wrote:Isn't that impossible because of the Bosporus?

    Admiral Kuznetsov and Varyag were both built in Nikolavev (now in ZOG-ruled Ukraine) and they were obviously able to transit the Bosporus.  I'm not sure of the treaty terms (have to look it up) but it may not prohibit the passage of still-to-be commissioned carriers.  I expect that they can be built in Crimea, but then sailed to elsewhere (eg the St Petersberg yards) for final fit-out and equipping of the air-wing.

    That was because they are officially not Aircraft Carriers but are classified as "heavy aircraft carrying cruiser".
    Because of this they were able to pass through the Bosporus Wink.

    Having an aircraft carrier in the Black Sea would be a waste of time and resources, Russia already has Crimea near the Western/Central End of the Black Sea, as well as Sochi on the Eastern end of the Black Sea as territory to launch aircraft, that alone would make it orders of magnitude more useful when it comes to controlling naval affairs of the Black Sea than any carrier you could have in the Black Sea (including even new generation of US 110K ton mega carriers). BTW future Russian carriers will still be Carrier/Cruiser hybrids with several UKSK and Redut launchers.

    Of course an aircraft carrier in the black sea Will never happen, but we were talking About constructing an aircraft carrier in the black sea.

    What Will be impossible unless you build it with the Kuznetsov configuration ( heavy aircraft carrying cruiser ).
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:37 pm

    In Russian doctrine, a fleet of huge aircraft carriers like the U.S. is unneccessary and low cost-effectiveness.

    Actually, at the moment Russia already possess a lot of aircraft carriers already. The different is that, while U.S. aircraft carriers float on the water surface, Russian carrier can fly. And while U.S. carriers use manned aircrafts, Russian carriers use unmanned suicide aircraft.

    Ah yes, what I am talking about is the "flying carrier" named Tu-24/22/16/95/160, Su-30/33/34/25, Ka-xx, and the unmanned suicide aircraft named Yakhonts, Oniks, Brahmos.Twisted Evil

    Of course, the cruise missile, aka "unmanned suicide aircraft" is smaller than manned aircraft, and aircraft with computer pilot has much better trajectory than human pilot, and when unmmaned cruise missle was destroyed you do not need to hold a funeral ceremony like a manned aircraft.Twisted Evil

    So basically, in anti-ship naval combat, Russia used flying aircraft carrier (Tu-xx) and unmanned suicide aircraft (cruise missile) to destroy the American floating airbase and manned aircraft carrier. Well, in some case, there are Russian floating "airfield" for unmanned suicide aircrafts, something we called Kirov or Slava.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. is over-obsessed with the humiliating defeat of Pearl Harbor, therefore the U.S. is over-obsessed with aircraft superiority in naval battles. American aircraft carrier is nothing but a floating airfield with minimum self-defense. In order to survive, the U.S. aircraft carrier need a whole huge fleet to protect it. Just like the useless defenseless termite queen need a whole colony to protect it.

    And the ironic story is that, while the U.S. usually blabber about their aircraft ejectors and blabber about "Russia does not have them", actually the position and mechanism of ejector is a severe weakpoint of the U.S. aircraft carriers. U.S. aircraft carriers rely 100% on ejector, and a aircraft carrier only has 2 of them. That means each turn, only 2 aircraft can taking off. And then wait, and then other 2. Just like a huge army goes through a very tiny and thin bridge.Twisted Evil

    Meanwhile, although Russian aircraft carrier does not have proper ejector, there is 10-12 taking off position for airplanes their. That means in one instance Russia can launch 10-12 airplanes into the battlefield.

    Another ironic story is that, American F-18 has shorter range than Russian unmanned suicide aicraft aka cruise missiles. That means Russian Tu-xx stays in a safe range, unleashes all missiles, and goes away, and F-18 cannot do anything due to out of range.Twisted Evil

    Back to the main problem, I has mentioned that in anti-ship naval combat - the main parts of naval battles, Russia does not used aircraft carriers with manned aircrafts, but flying (Tu-xx) and floating (Kirov, Slava) carriers with unmanned suicide airplanes (P-xxx, Klub,...). Newest Russian suicide aircrafts like Yakhont, Oniks , or Brahmos have new turbofan with very high efficiency and the capability to fly at low speed and high alitude at the initial part of the trajectory, and they only decrease the alitude and increase the speed at the very end to bypass the enemy defense system. The Russian suicide airplanes has very long range (1500 km), very fast maximum speed, and stealthy cloaks to fool the enemy defense system.

    Besides the suicide unmanned aircrafts aka cruise missiles, in anti-ship naval combat the Russian also launched unmanned mini "locator". These machines receive the radar beam from the Russian broadcaster, and function similarly to the satellites of the GPS. These mini "sattelites" is only 90km high (GPS is about 20000km), they broadcast a very high intensity waves, close range cover, with rapid change of frequency and can hardly be jammed (meanwhile the GPS can be jammed more easily). With these mini "sattelites", Russian suicide unmanned aircrafts aka cruise missiles can hit the enemy ship with very high accuracy. Meanwhile, American UAV and cruise missiles used the GPS with lower accuracy and can easily be jammed, that's why many Tomahawks fall in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and that's why Iran caught an U.S. UAV, the U.S. UAV mistook Iran as its own home. Twisted Evil

    --------

    So, because the anti-ship naval combat , the main part of naval battle, is carry out by super accurate suicide unmanned aircraft (aka cruise missile), Russian traditional style of aircraft carrier is designed to fulfil the role of... cruiser. That is further enhance the control and domination of the water surface. That is the reason why Russian aircraft carriers have a very large space for helicoper like Ka-xx. Of course fixed wings aircrafts like MiG-xx and Su-xx can use these carriers for very long range combat. But Russian aircraft carrier will not function as the trump card in anti-ship naval combat like the U.S. Because Russia already has unmanned suicide aircraft like Yakhont and Oniks to do the anti-ship parts.

    And because the role is similar to a cruiser, Russian aircraft is heavily armoured and has strong self-defense capability, like a true cruiser.
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    Post  Flyingdutchman Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:40 am

    I read something about possible future aircraft carriers and a option is to build the ship in two shipyards with two large pieces being connected ( just like the mistral ).
    This would meen that the Aircraft Carrier could be constructed early next decade?

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