Future russian aircraft carriers. #2

eehnie wrote:https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.sputniknews.com%2Ftechnik%2F20180225319701993-russland-marine-flugzeugtraeger%2F&edit-text=

The Russian naval forces can wait tensely for a new aircraft carrier.  A corresponding project has now been prepared, reported on Sunday, the TV channel "Zvezda".

According to preliminary calculations, the length of the new ship should be 330 meters, the width - 40 meters.  The ship is to carry up to 90 aircraft and helicopters and can record radar early warning aircraft.

For the people that wants to pay attention to the reality.

This new means:

1.- The Preliminary Design of the Project 23000 has been completed.
2.- The Preliminary Design of the Project 23000 is ready for examination of the Ministry of Defense.
3.- Pending approval of the project by the Ministry of Defense.

Compared to other projects:

1.- The Preliminary Design of the Project 23560 Lider was approved by the Russian Ministry of Defense in the spring of 2017. The Project 23560 Lider is more advanced than the Project 23000 Shtorm.
2.- According to the public news about the Russian Marine Doctrine of 2015, a project of aircraft carrier must be ready by 2020. There is not other alternative project publicly known at this point.
3.- There are not news about the a preliminary design prepared for the Projects Privoi, Lavina or Kashalot of Large Amphibious Ships (helicopter carriers). The Project 23000 Shtorm is more advanced than the Project Priboi, the Project Lavina and the Project Kashalot.

Wrong this means they only just started, "preliminary calculations".

Definition of preliminary: denoting an action or event preceding or done in preparation for something fuller or more important.

So they are at the OPENING stages of even getting a design finished to even propose it to the MOD, the project is no where near finished and is not awaiting approval from the government at all

You are aware that "preliminary design" can be made out of lego cubes?

From 2015...

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://tehnowar.ru/18891-perspektivnyy-avianosec-shtorm-poluchit-unikalnyy-korpus.html&xid=17259,15700002,15700021,15700105,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700201&usg=ALkJrhgo2gzbCETtkw0q5gB6PrvZihuzQQ

Prospective aircraft carrier "Storm" will receive a unique hull

Multi-purpose heavy aircraft carrier of the project 23000E "Storm", which was developed by the experts of the Krylov State Research Center for the Russian Navy, will receive a body that has no analogues in the world, allowing to reduce the resistance to the ship's movement by one third and obtain the maximum possible characteristics, the adviser to the Director General of the Center told Interfax-AVN Valery Polovinkin

"During the development of the project, our institute proposed an original hull for this aircraft carrier: optimal in terms of resistance. Its shape and decks are defined in such a way that, with limited displacement and main dimensions, it is possible to have the largest possible fleet of aircraft. This goal has been achieved, "said V. Polovinkin.

He noted that, according to preliminary estimates, the resistance to the movement of this ship will be approximately 30% less than the traditional contour of the hull. "This means that with conventional energy it will be possible to have a cruising range of 30% more and less fuel consumption," the expert explained.

V. Polovinkin said that the advance design provides for a gas turbine and nuclear version of the aircraft carrier's power plant.
design provides for a gas turbine and nuclear version of the aircraft carrier's power plant.

Earlier it was reported that the Krylov State Research Center completed the design of a new multipurpose heavy aircraft carrier, the project received the index 23000E "Storm". According to preliminary data, the length of the ship will be 330 meters, width - 40 meters, and the draft - 11 meters. Its speed will reach 30 knots.

Now the Russian Navy has one heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser - Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov.

This achieved with Lego

Less and more

If this information is correct they will go the US-American way with big carriers.

What the hell are you smoking?

The Kuznetsov is hardly a US-American way big carrier... it is 305m long, so we are talking a new carrier that is only 25m longer... so clearly not a 100K ton super carrier.

The catapult system makes no sense with a ski jump... clearly they want a cat system for heavy aircraft but most of the aircraft will take off on their own... ie we are talking about a Russian style carrier with mostly fighters that can also launch an AWACS aircraft and possibly an inflight refuelling tanker so the fighters can take off with a full weapon load and perhaps half fuel and refuel after getting airborne.

Very unlike US carriers BTW.

Is there any other way than catapult or ski jump to lunch a fighter from a carrier ?

STOL/VTOL... but both are extremely expensive as they need totally new aircraft designs that are fundamentally compromised...

BTW when you guys have finished with the personal jibes has anyone else actually thought about the figures given properly yet?

The Kuznetsov is 305 metres long and a 72 metre beam, so 330m long and 40m beam sounds a little strange to me to be honest...

eehnie wrote:From 2015...

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://tehnowar.ru/18891-perspektivnyy-avianosec-shtorm-poluchit-unikalnyy-korpus.html&xid=17259,15700002,15700021,15700105,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700201&usg=ALkJrhgo2gzbCETtkw0q5gB6PrvZihuzQQ

Prospective aircraft carrier "Storm" will receive a unique hull

Multi-purpose heavy aircraft carrier of the project 23000E "Storm", which was developed by the experts of the Krylov  State Research Center for the Russian Navy, will receive a body that has no analogues in the world, allowing to reduce the resistance to the ship's movement by one third and obtain the maximum possible characteristics, the adviser to the Director General of the Center told Interfax-AVN Valery Polovinkin

"During the development of the project, our institute proposed an original hull for this aircraft carrier: optimal in terms of resistance.  Its shape and decks are defined in such a way that, with limited displacement and main dimensions, it is possible to have the largest possible fleet of aircraft.  This goal has been achieved, "said V. Polovinkin.

He noted that, according to preliminary estimates, the resistance to the movement of this ship will be approximately 30% less than the traditional contour of the hull.  "This means that with conventional energy it will be possible to have a cruising range of 30% more and less fuel consumption," the expert explained.

V. Polovinkin said that the advance design provides for a gas turbine and nuclear version of the aircraft carrier's power plant.
design provides for a gas turbine and nuclear version of the aircraft carrier's power plant.

Earlier it was reported that the Krylov State Research Center completed the design of a new multipurpose heavy aircraft carrier, the project received the index 23000E "Storm".  According to preliminary data, the length of the ship will be 330 meters, width - 40 meters, and the draft - 11 meters.  Its speed will reach 30 knots.

Now the Russian Navy has one heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser - Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov.

This achieved with Lego

Less      and more    

Yes? You know we had parameters set and goals for systems 20-30years ago that are coming into service now. Doesnt mean they were made 30 years ago. I am not sure what are you trying to tell us here. That they already welded the hull somewhere same as Leader ?

GarryB wrote:

If this information is correct they will go the US-American way with big carriers.

What the hell are you smoking?

The Kuznetsov is hardly a US-American way big carrier... it is 305m long, so we are talking a new carrier that is only 25m longer... so clearly not a 100K ton super carrier.

The catapult system makes no sense with a ski jump... clearly they want a cat system for heavy aircraft but most of the aircraft will take off on their own... ie we are talking about a Russian style carrier with mostly fighters that can also launch an AWACS aircraft and possibly an inflight refuelling tanker so the fighters can take off with a full weapon load and perhaps half fuel and refuel after getting airborne.

Haha I don't smoke!

They are talking about dimensions from waterline, so the new carrier will have exact the dimensions of a Nimitz or Ford Carrier. And 90 airplanes is a big number. A mix of skijump and catapult makes really no sense, your are right.

But project is in far future...we will see in many years!

GarryB wrote:

If this information is correct they will go the US-American way with big carriers.

What the hell are you smoking?

The Kuznetsov is hardly a US-American way big carrier... it is 305m long, so we are talking a new carrier that is only 25m longer... so clearly not a 100K ton super carrier.

The catapult system makes no sense with a ski jump... clearly they want a cat system for heavy aircraft but most of the aircraft will take off on their own... ie we are talking about a Russian style carrier with mostly fighters that can also launch an AWACS aircraft and possibly an inflight refuelling tanker so the fighters can take off with a full weapon load and perhaps half fuel and refuel after getting airborne.

Very unlike US carriers BTW.

"Only 25m longer", that is ALOT longer to be fair. Ford class is some 335 or so m long.

Also 90 borts onboard means it will be very, very big. In general numbers it seems comparable in size to Ford class for an example, which is super-carrier as much as one gets to be.

Isos wrote:This thing is only from sputnik quoting a TV chanel ... They are not quoting official guys from MoD. Keep calm I'm pretty sure we won't hear anything about this for the next years. They made the same articles claiming shtorm is the new carrier design. Sputnik military specialist are not reliable. Most of the time they don't even use correct words when it comes to military science.

BUT BUT the INTERNET SAID So, it must be true!

Isos wrote:This thing is only from sputnik quoting a TV chanel ... They are not quoting official guys from MoD. Keep calm I'm pretty sure we won't hear anything about this for the next years. They made the same articles claiming shtorm is the new carrier design. Sputnik military specialist are not reliable. Most of the time they don't even use correct words when it comes to military science.

There are no "sputnik military specialists", just journalists that need to get clicks on their articles.

Another article at Sputniknews Germany, interview with Alexej Leonkow (expert)...

I hope it's not water on eehnies watermills

https://de.sputniknews.com/politik/20180226319718068-flugzeugtraeger-marine-kriegsschiff/

I try to translate...

Only the concept exists no blueprint! They try to work on the blueprint now and construction can start 2023 (earliest date) to 2028. The biggest risk are gigantic costs, so the project is not really sure. The carrier will have two runways for starting, one CATOBAR and the other skijump. The carrier is too big for black sea or baltic sea, so only fleets would be Pacific and Northern Fleet for this type of carrier.

Azi wrote:Another article at Sputniknews Germany, interview with Alexej Leonkow (expert)...

I hope it's not water on eehnies watermills

https://de.sputniknews.com/politik/20180226319718068-flugzeugtraeger-marine-kriegsschiff/

I try to translate...

Only the concept exists no blueprint! They try to work on the blueprint now and construction can start 2023 (earliest date) to 2028. The biggest risk are gigantic costs, so the project is not really sure. The carrier will have two runways for starting, one CATOBAR and the other skijump. The carrier is too big for black sea or baltic sea, so only fleets would be Pacific and Northern Fleet for this type of carrier.

"Currently, the new aircraft carrier is only a concept that comes from the developer Krylow. The Deputy Chief of Naval Operations, Viktor Barsuk, said in the summer that the drafting of a draft was anchored in the state armaments program from 2018 to 2025. In the autumn, Barsuk specified that the work is expected to start in the period from 2023 to 2028"

The world isn't all "black & white". "Storm haters" is the wrong term- we r just being objective here as opposed to Storm fan boys!
I don't see much need for such big CV/Ns; Russia isn't export oriented PRC with its long SLOCs; she can get a few more "unsinkable a/c carriers" in key areas & maintain its interests abroad just as well, if not better, while concentrating on perimeter/Arctic possessions defence & the NSR. Those designers r peddling their projects to stay in business- after Indian "nyet", their only hope is that the RuN will order them.
Read about the dying Japanese Empire a/c carriers & Yamato-class battleship fates:

Two battleships of the class (Yamato and Musashi) were completed, while a third (Shinano) was converted to an aircraft carrier during construction.
Due to the threat of American submarines and aircraft carriers, both Yamato and Musashi spent the majority of their careers in naval bases at Brunei, Truk, and Kure—deploying on several occasions in response to American raids on Japanese bases—before participating in the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October 1944, as part of Admiral Kurita's Centre Force. Musashi was sunk during the battle by American carrier airplanes. Shinano was sunk ten days after her commissioning in November 1944 by the submarine USS Archerfish, while Yamato was sunk by US naval air power in April 1945 during Operation Ten-Go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato-class_battleship
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ise-class_battleship#Conversion_to_aircraft_carriers

Russia isn't export oriented PRC with its long SLOCs

Do you think Russia has much of a future if it can only trade with its land neighbours?

Take a good look at them and work out the potential max trade that is possible with those countries...

Now look at the rest of the world... spending 20 billion dollars to open Russias trade options to the rest of the world is an excellent investment... especially when taken with other factors... Russia is spending big on liquified natural gas... now it is going to be needing to ship that to its customers... with a tiny navy of corvettes how will it do that?

If it needs a navy that can operate anywhere in the world it needs air cover to support those operations... it needs a carrier.

BUT BUT the INTERNET SAID So, it must be true!

Yeah, we get you don't agree with Eehnie... the real question is why you are all being about it?

They are talking about dimensions from waterline, so the new carrier will have exact the dimensions of a Nimitz or Ford Carrier. And 90 airplanes is a big number. A mix of skijump and catapult makes really no sense, your are right.

It makes no sense for a piece of shit US "Imperial cruiser" destroyer of baby milk factories... it makes perfect sense for a scaled up Kuznetsov.

Well painful part for eehnie is the fact that this new carrier (if it ever even gets made) is now in pre-concept phase (AKA all talk) so whatever they end up building or even just drawing up would be completely different to fabled Project-whatever Shtorm-class supercarrier so Shtorm will remain what it always was and what it was always designed to be: fanart.

IDK why Russians want to make uber-AC with air-wing 90 fighters/helos  But statement 2 ski-jumps and 1 catapult makes me suspicious.
Navalized Su-57 is also not for free  much better then F-35 though. The question is how many of ACs and where they suppose to roam?

GarryB wrote:It makes no sense for a piece of shit US "Imperial cruiser" destroyer of baby milk factories... it makes perfect sense for a scaled up Kuznetsov.

If you see the new article of Sputnik and check previous articles about the Project 23000 you will see the parameters are just the same. The new article of Sputnik is talking about the Project 23000. That some people here hate so much.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=es&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.sputniknews.com%2Ftechnik%2F20180225319701993-russland-marine-flugzeugtraeger%2F&edit-text=

Russia's navy can look forward to new aircraft carriers

technology
18:02 25.02.2018   (updated 19:19 25.02.2018)   To the short link

The Russian naval forces can wait tensely for a new aircraft carrier.  A corresponding project has now been prepared, reported on Sunday, the TV channel "Zvezda".

According to preliminary calculations, the length of the new ship should be 330 meters, the width - 40 meters.  The ship is to carry up to 90 aircraft and helicopters and can record radar early warning aircraft.

Faster than Bullet: New Missiles for Russian Navy >>>

Crew des russischen Atomkreuzers Pjotr Welikij (Archivbild)
Sputnik / Grigory Syssoew

The launching system of the new aircraft carrier will consist of a so-called ski jump, a kind of "ski jump", and a device for acceleration.  The departure deck of the ship should be twice as large as that of Admiral Kuznetsov , who is currently the only aircraft carrier in the service of the Russian Seekriegsflotte.

With the development of the new ship, the Russian Krylov Research Center in St. Petersburg should deal.  Construction is scheduled to commence under the new state-of-the-art upgrade program for the period 2018-2025.

As exameple of the data from 2015, the other article posted in the previous page is valid:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=es&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://tehnowar.ru/18891-perspektivnyy-avianosec-shtorm-poluchit-unikalnyy-korpus.html&xid=17259,15700002,15700021,15700105,15700124,15700149,15700168,15700173,15700201&usg=ALkJrhgo2gzbCETtkw0q5gB6PrvZihuzQQ

Prospective aircraft carrier "Storm" will receive a unique hull

Multi-purpose heavy aircraft carrier of the project 23000E "Storm", which was developed by the experts of the Krylov  State Research Center for the Russian Navy, will receive a body that has no analogues in the world, allowing to reduce the resistance to the ship's movement by one third and obtain the maximum possible characteristics, the adviser to the Director General of the Center told Interfax-AVN Valery Polovinkin

"During the development of the project, our institute proposed an original hull for this aircraft carrier: optimal in terms of resistance.  Its shape and decks are defined in such a way that, with limited displacement and main dimensions, it is possible to have the largest possible fleet of aircraft.  This goal has been achieved, "said V. Polovinkin.

He noted that, according to preliminary estimates, the resistance to the movement of this ship will be approximately 30% less than the traditional contour of the hull.  "This means that with conventional energy it will be possible to have a cruising range of 30% more and less fuel consumption," the expert explained.

V. Polovinkin said that the advance design provides for a gas turbine and nuclear version of the aircraft carrier's power plant.
design provides for a gas turbine and nuclear version of the aircraft carrier's power plant.

Earlier it was reported that the Krylov State Research Center completed the design of a new multipurpose heavy aircraft carrier, the project received the index 23000E "Storm".  According to preliminary data, the length of the ship will be 330 meters, width - 40 meters, and the draft - 11 meters. Its speed will reach 30 knots.

Now the Russian Navy has one heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser - Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov.

- Project 23000: First article. Variant for Russia. Preliminary Design completed by 2018.
- Project 23000E: Second article. Variant to export. Preliminary Design completed by 2015.

For the people that wants to pay attention to the reality. This new means:

1.- The Preliminary Design of the Project 23000 has been completed.
2.- The Preliminary Design of the Project 23000 is ready for examination of the Ministry of Defense.
3.- Pending approval of the Preliminary Design of the Project 23000 by the Ministry of Defense.

Compared to other projects:

1.- The Preliminary Design of the Project 23560 Lider was approved by the Russian Ministry of Defense in the spring of 2017. The Project 23560 Lider is more advanced than the Project 23000 Shtorm.
2.- According to the public news about the Russian Marine Doctrine of 2015, a project of aircraft carrier must be ready by 2020. There is not other alternative project publicly known at this point.
3.- The Preliminary Design of the Project ??? Kalina was completed by the summer of 2017. The Project 23000 Shtorm and the Project ??? Kalina are more or less in the same stage of development at this point.
4.- There are not news about a Preliminary Design completed for the Project ????? Priboi, the Project ????? Lavina or the Project ??????  Kashalot of Large Amphibious Ships (helicopter carriers). The Project 23000 Shtorm is more advanced than the Project ????? Priboi, the Project ????? Lavina and the Project ????? Kashalot. It is logical taking into account that the works on the Project 23000 started around 2011 and the works on the Large Amphibious Ships started after the option of the Mistral ships failed, in 2014-2015.
5.- There are not news about a Preliminary Design completed for the Project ??? Husky or the Project ??? Submarine Interceptor.

Makes sense.

Following the habitual procedures the Preliminary Design of the Project 23000 can be approved in some months, maybe in 2019.

IDK why Russians want to make uber-AC with air-wing 90 fighters/helos  But statement 2 ski-jumps and 1 catapult makes me suspicious.
Navalized Su-57 is also not for free  much better then F-35 though. The question is how many of ACs and where they suppose to roam?

Well if they want to be a global power they need a fleet of ships that can operate anywhere... which means a decent number of aircraft that can also operate anywhere.

It wont have two ski jumps... it will have two takeoff positions that run up the ski jump just like on the Kuznetsov.

The cat system wont run up the ski jump because it is for heavier aircraft fully loaded so the g forces a ski jump applies on takeoff would be counter productive.

Very simply, during normal operations the ski jump will be the normal method of getting fighters airborne, and most of the time they will have a modest weapon load of air to air weapons only the vast majority of the time and probably only half fuel. AWACS aircraft will be launched from the cat and inflight refuelling aircraft based on the AWACS design will also be launched to fully top up the AWACS aircraft and any fighters already in the air.

In an emergency once there is an AWACS airborne the cat can be used for fighters with full fuel and weapons as well as inflight refuelling aircraft to support aircraft in the air...

Another reason they are in no urgent hurry for a carrier is that there is no current destination for it except Cuba and Venezuela and perhaps Vietnam, North Korea, and Myanma or Indonesia and India. As ties develop, they can go to countries like Argentina or Yemen or the countries in Africa.

Its shape and decks are defined in such a way that, with limited displacement and main dimensions, it is possible to have the largest possible fleet of aircraft.  This goal has been achieved

So they are claiming that clever design has allowed a smaller weight and dimensions but maximised aircraft payload... which is not what you guys are claiming... that it is a US super carrier...

What I find amusing is that after bitching about Eehnie saying that one or another carrier will be built the people who are bitching the hardest that he is now wrong about which particular design will be used generally stated that the Russians weren't getting any carriers at all and can't even build Frigates...

Looking forward to the denials... but it seems they want carriers and they want carriers that are not stupid mini carriers with VSTOL fighter shit on them...

[quote="GarryB"]

What I find amusing is that after bitching about Eehnie saying that one or another carrier will be built the people who are bitching the hardest that he is now wrong about which particular design will be used generally stated that the Russians weren't getting any carriers at all and can't even build Frigates...

Looking forward to the denials... but it seems they want carriers and they want carriers that are not stupid mini carriers with VSTOL fighter shit on them...

Welcome to the super weapons club comrade. Death to the haters of heavy equipment (this is satire not a death threat).

Anyway It is so good to hear that our glorious Shtorm class carriers are on the way soon Russia will rule the seas (evil laugh).

Alright jokes aside time to celebrate the Russian MODs choosing of the right option.

GarryB wrote:

IDK why Russians want to make uber-AC with air-wing 90 fighters/helos  But statement 2 ski-jumps and 1 catapult makes me suspicious.
Navalized Su-57 is also not for free  much better then F-35 though. The question is how many of ACs and where they suppose to roam?

Well if they want to be a global power they need a fleet of ships that can operate anywhere... which means a decent number of aircraft that can also operate anywhere.

Unlikely global with 2 CVs. Size of population and economy will not really allow Russia to get even close to US in terms of naval power projection. Those 2 ACs have no chance against US carrier groups. Russian power projection it will be at level of UK not US. This of course will be much better then France unless Germans who would have to pay for plans or Napoleon Micron plans

That's my question why do you need so huge airwing if you have no plans for Midway style wars? In US first Nimitz was 13bln USD without planes. Interesting that Russia would have to build NEW type of AWACS for naval use thus again couple of billions for 4-6 planes? and for catapults US one costs 1bln USD and doesnt work as planned yet
v
Interesting choice we'll live to see it in practice though

GarryB wrote:
It wont have two ski jumps... it will have two takeoff positions that run up the ski jump just like on the Kuznetsov.

That's your interpretation. Article says: 2 skijumps and 1 "acceleration device". Possible you're correct but you cannot be sure without seeitn this
Ah and 2 aisles.

GarryB wrote:
Another reason they are in no urgent hurry for a carrier is that there is no current destination for it except Cuba and Venezuela and perhaps Vietnam, North Korea, and Myanma or Indonesia and India. As ties develop, they can go to countries like Argentina or Yemen or the countries in Africa.

For vising this countries and present Russian flag much smaller and cheaper Ac than 10bln USD onr would be just fine.

Looking forward to the denials... but it seems they want carriers and they want carriers that are not stupid mini carriers with VSTOL fighter shit on them...

Let me remind you thet previously they were talking abut two options: small ~ 30k and 100k classes. What will be chosen ultimately we need still couple of years to live to see. Currently after a half year statement changed but in mid 2018 i expect yet another change. When they calculate budget and costs of 12-14 USD blns per AC then admiralty gets more reasonable:)

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
That's my question why do you need so huge airwing if you have no plans for Midway style wars?

They will have the naval version of the SU-57 and Zircon missiles giving them vast range superiority over any us carrier.

Also could someone please get hold of the list of anti ship weapons carried by a us carrier? I believe they are lacking in the department of cruise missiles that can outrange modern Russian air defences.