Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+106
lyle6
The_Observer
slasher
The-thing-next-door
Kiko
TMA1
PhSt
Backman
lancelot
Maximmmm
Rodion_Romanovic
Big_Gazza
Boshoed
owais.usmani
Arrow
jaguar_br
Ivanov673
archangelski
hoom
LMFS
Hole
dino00
Peŕrier
KomissarBojanchev
Cheetah
AMCXXL
mnztr
SeigSoloyvov
Isos
miketheterrible
Azi
Arctic_Fox
Tsavo Lion
Cyberspec
GunshipDemocracy
AK-Rex
gaurav
Singular_Transform
KiloGolf
eehnie
kopyo-21
VladimirSahin
max steel
d_taddei2
Project Canada
OminousSpudd
Berkut
Morpheus Eberhardt
x_54_u43
KoTeMoRe
ult
JohninMK
jhelb
Mike E
mack8
Odin of Ossetia
nemrod
PapaDragon
wilhelm
Teshub
Radium
sepheronx
Rmf
higurashihougi
kvs
EKS
mutantsushi
Book.
victor1985
Svyatoslavich
collegeboy16
franco
Manov
medo
magnumcromagnon
AbsoluteZero
Honesroc
Dorfmeister
George1
coolieno99
Rpg type 7v
flamming_python
Giulio
Vann7
a89
eridan
Mindstorm
spotter
macedonian
zg18
Werewolf
Sujoy
Firebird
Russian Patriot
SOC
TheArmenian
TR1
Hoof
nightcrawler
Austin
USAF
solo.13mmfmj
Viktor
Stealthflanker
GarryB
Admin
110 posters

    Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2661
    Points : 2830
    Join date : 2015-12-31
    Location : Merkelland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 08/09/20, 02:00 am

    kvs wrote:The PAK-DA will be a high altitude aircraft like the Tu-160.   So an NK-32 derivative engine makes total sense.   It makes no sense for the An-124 which requires a high bypass turbofan without
    any high altitude operational mode.    As I posted the PD-35 is a target size of a whole class of engines that will include smaller thrust variants.     Since the PD-14 is already certified, the "PD-35"
    class is not that far off in the future so will overlap any re-engine need for An-124s.   I just don't see how the NK-32 is a shorter path to a D18-T replacement, it will have to have every turbine and
    "fan" stage totally redesigned.



    Not every turbine, probably it would be alright to keep HP and IP turbine (and also IP and HP compressor), especially if they already improved them for the new version of the NK32.

    It needs for sure a new fan and they must change the LP turbine paired with it (possibly they can keep what is already there and just add 2 or 3 stages at the end.

    As far as the combustion chamber, I do not know if it copes with the latest civilian regulations about emissions and noise.

    Such derivative engines are nothing strange or new.
    The Olympus engine of the Concorde has been modified to create both an industrial engine and a ship gas turbine, and also Kuznetov has experience with industrial gas turbine derivatives.

    As I wrote above, a few years ago (in the early 2000s) they also did a similar thing with the D30, increasing the thrust  and the bypass ratio (from 2.2 to 3.65).
    For the NK32 the changes would be more, but not unfeasible.

    The results in term of SFC and emissions will not be on par with a fully modern engine, but it can be available soon (especially if they actually worked on it).

    The PD24 variant of the PD35 will be available maybe 3 to 4 years after the PD35 will be introduced in service, so we are talking about 2030 at least.

    By the way, UAC is considering some some additional development  of MC21 by 2035.

    These would be the larger variants
    MC-21-500 and 600, with engines with a takeoff thrust of about 20-25 tons.
    And this would consist in the development of the PD24 engine by that time.

    Back into the engine modification topic, here some info on the D-30 modernisation

    wikipedia wrote:
    D-30KP-3 "Burlak"  is a turbofan engine deeply modernized in the 2000s at NPO Saturn. It features a new fan, more than 1.5 times the bypass ratio, increased thrust by 1 ton, fuel consumption is reduced by 11%. Complies with the standards of the fourth chapter of ICAO on noise and emission of harmful substances.


    https://vpk.name/news/56492_nelegkie_na_podem.html


    Engine problem

    Nikolay Boltenkov believes that the Il-76 has only one problem - the D30-KP engine, which does not meet the ICAO emission and noise requirements. According to him, NPO Saturn has developed and successfully tested the deeply modernized D-30KP-2 engine, called the D-30KP-3 Burlak. "The result is a very interesting engine for us, which meets the standards of the fourth chapter of ICAO on noise and emission of harmful substances. The thrust increased by 1 ton, fuel consumption decreased by 11%, it was supposed to double the assigned resource," said Mr. Boltenkov. Nikolay Boltenkov considers the installation of Perm engines PS-90A-76 on his IL-76TD, which has worked out half of the calendar resource, "economically unjustified", since this requires a rather serious modernization of the aircraft, associated with the replacement of pylons and linking the engine with the rest of the onboard systems. Burlak, similar in design to the IL-76 D-30KP, does not require this, and the cost of remotorization of existing aircraft is acceptable for the operator.

    In this regard, Mr. Boltenkov regrets that the United Engine Corporation (UEC) has not yet included Burlak in its production line, although Aviakon was ready to act as a launch customer for NPO Saturn and confirmed its need for 40-43 engines of this type. However, according to experts, the position of the UEC is quite understandable from the point of view of the economics of engine manufacturers. "It is much more efficient to concentrate production on the production of modern PS-90s, which in the future will account for hundreds of units, than to open a line for the remotorization of an aging aircraft fleet," says Oleg Panteleev, head of the AviaPort analytical service.




    https://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2005/04/08/89761.html


    D-30-KP-3 "BURLAK" - A HIGHLY EFFECTIVE SOLUTION FOR THE MODERNIZATION OF THE POWER PLANT OF THE IL-76 AIRCRAFT AND ITS MODIFICATIONS

    Source:  PJSC" UEC - Saturn " "
    Published: 08.04.2005 ,

    The Il-76 transport aircraft can be confidently called one of the most successful aircraft of its class in the history of world aviation. It is still one of the most demanded cargo aircraft and forms the basis of the transport aviation fleet in Russia and a number of other countries.

    In modern conditions, the operation of the IL-76 is carried out in two large segments: commercial cargo transportation and transport operations of government services and departments. In total, 491 Il 76 aircraft are currently in operation in Russia, more than 300 - abroad. Most of them (about 70%) have been in operation for 10-15 years, that is, they have approached or are approaching the second half of their life cycle.

    The solution to the problem of the "low-budget" modernization of the Il-76 aircraft, which are in the second half of their life cycle, is designed to ensure the program of re-motorization of the Il-76 with D-30KP Burlak engines being implemented by NPO Saturn. The main task solved within the framework of this program is to expand the range of capabilities and increase the life cycle of most of the Il-76 family aircraft fleet (Il-76TD transport aircraft, Il-76MD military transport aircraft, Il-78 tanker aircraft, A- 50) by upgrading the base engine of the Il-76 family - D-30KP, serially produced by NPO Saturn.

    The modernization consists in replacing the 3-stage low-pressure compressor with a single-stage fan and increasing the bypass ratio from 2.2 in the base engine to 3.65 in the D-30KP "Burlak". The use of a highly efficient low-noise fan combined with an increase in the bypass ratio will reduce the specific fuel consumption in the engine by about 10%, increase the resource and ensure its compliance with ICAO Chapter 4 noise and emission standards.

    NPO Saturn has been working on the D-30KP Burlak program since mid-2003. At present, the first stage of bench tests has been completed, based on the general results of which a typical engine design for certification tests will be determined. Engine certification is scheduled for Q1 2007. Work with IL OJSC on linking the engine to the IL-76 aircraft is in the active phase: a technical task has been formed, the aircraft flight characteristics have been determined, the installation of engines on the aircraft and an investment project for the remotorization of the IL-76 fleet are being worked out. Technological preparation of production was carried out at NPO Saturn, and the technology of manufacturing fan blades was tested.

    We can say with absolute confidence that the main technical tasks of modernization have been solved, in particular, improving operational characteristics, increasing engine resource and increasing its efficiency, ensuring modern and promising environmental characteristics.

    The technical assignment for the design of the D-30KP "Burlak" was aimed at increasing the engine thrust from 12,000 to 13,000 kg. As a result of bench tests, this figure was not only achieved, but also exceeded, reaching almost 14,000 kg. With subsequent fine-tuning, this indicator will become the norm. This will increase the takeoff weight of the aircraft to 195 tons, take off from a shorter runway, and maintain takeoff thrust at a higher ambient temperature (up to +30 degrees Celsius).

    The design features of the D-30KP "Burlak" allow, by reducing the temperature in front of the turbine by 40 degrees, to increase the service life of the hot part of the engine and the engine as a whole, significantly increasing the overhaul and assigned resources, calendar service life.

    D-30KP "Burlak" allows to reduce specific fuel consumption from 0.71 to 0.64 kg / kg h, which allows saving up to 18%. fuel per hour. This leads to an increase in flight range or an increase in payload.

    Aircraft equipped with D-30KP Burlak engines will fully comply with all modern ICAO requirements for emissions of harmful substances and noise levels on the ground, which will allow them to freely perform air transportation outside Russia after 2006.

    The cost of remotorization of Il-76 aircraft and its modifications with D-30KP Burlak engines is 3.5 times lower in comparison with PS-90A. The cost of remotorization is the most important indicator of the economic efficiency of modernization and is considered as the sum of the costs of installing engines on an aircraft and their further operation. The low cost is due to the high degree of unification (75%) of the D-30KP "Burlak" with the base engine D-30KP-2, and the modification of the engine during the overhaul will further reduce the cost of re-engining the aircraft as a whole. In addition, the creation of a new infrastructure for servicing the engine and aircraft in operation is not required.

    LMFS likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40583
    Points : 41085
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  GarryB 08/09/20, 06:02 pm

    The An-124 (and probably also the new il-106) needs an engine with about 23-24 tons of takeoff thrust (but it could benefits of a bit more thrust, and in the past motor sich proposed a D18T modification with 25-26 tons of takeoff thrust).

    It depends on what they want for the Il-106... if they want it to be a four engined aircraft and they end up putting the same engine in it that they then put in the An-124 they they are shooting themselves in the foot.

    The real value of the An-22 over the An-124 was not that 80 tons is a better capacity than 120 tons... the value was that its engines and propellers were more efficient so it was cheaper to use.

    If the An-22 had the same engines as the An-124 it would not be cheaper to use... it could use shorter runways and would probably accelerate much better but costing the same would mean often it would make more sense to just put a 150% An-22 load into an An-124 and just use less planes.

    There are a couple of ways the Il-106 could be cheaper than an upgraded An-124 with 24 ton thrust engines... using two more powerful engines (ie PD-35s) or using the same number of less powerful but more fuel efficient engines (something like a PD-22... which is still rather more powerful than the 14 ton thrust engines in the Il-76 at 40 ton payloads and 16 ton thrust engines in the Il-76 at 60 ton payloads)

    The idea behind the PD-35 is that it is going to be the top end of a scaleable family of engines with modern designs and made from modern materials... that should be able to be produced without a lot of extra testing and a brand new from scratch design would need.

    The PD35 will not be ready before at least 6 years and even if it is a scalable design the PD24 will be less of a priority, and will be available later.

    If they can solve the current problem of the new Russian engines for the An-124 then the problems with Slon and Il-106 are not urgent and can be solved in good time.

    Right now it is the An-12 and An-24/6 and An-72 and An-2 and light transports that are more urgent in terms of needing replacement as the airframes are starting to expire...

    They need anyway to design and test a new engine, even if they could save a bit of time by reusing the solutions from its smaller (PD14) and bigger brother PD35).

    See that is where I disagree... the Slon is going to be a 160-180 ton capacity aircraft and the Il-106 is going to be an 90-110 ton capacity aircraft between the current 60 ton Il-476 and An-124 at 120/150 ton depending on the variant.

    There was talk of using inflight refuelling on the Il-106 and therefore increasing the payload capacity and extending flight range... which means most jobs done by the An-124 would now be done by the smaller cheaper aircraft and the bigger jobs the An-124 did will be done with the Slon...

    Essentially the An-124 would get replacement engines and then work for the remainder of their airframe lives and then be retired and replaced by fully Russian aircraft.

    Concerning the NK32 derived engine, as it was mentioned in another thread, it should be in development already since several years ago and a variant of it should go on the Pak-Da subsonic bomber).

    Yes, the issue is that for a flying wing there is not a lot of internal volume for an enormous high bypass turbofan engine, while on the big transport planes that could also use it there is plenty of room, so much of the work done on the engine to make it suitable for a high subsonic flying wing but fitted internally could be used for the version for the An-124 to bide its remaining time in service, while the full sized full power 35 ton thrust version called PD-35 could be developed from that with a bigger fan no longer constrained by needing to be internal... to be used in 4-5 years time on Slon and Il-106... four engines and two engines respectively perhaps...

    Another NK32 derived engine, called NK-23D should also be in development (or was proposed) and it is not clear how much commonality there is between this one and the Pak-Da engine.
    It wouldn't need to be started from scratch anyway.

    Perhaps the number is the hint... maybe the NK-23D is the NK-32 with a higher bypass ratio and no afterburner for use on the An-124 to replace the Ukrainian engines... perhaps including an afterburner for the PAK DA for takeoffs and rapid climbs... (it would not need to go supersonic as that would be problematic but not impossible.... the main issue is power to weight ratio needed for sustained supersonic flight requires slim low drag design, which is the opposite of what a strategic bomber wants with max fuel and max internal weapon payload...)

    The fan needs of course to be completely new, going from a multi stage very low bypass fan (needed for supersonic speed) of the NK32 to a large single stage fan (maybe a scaled up version of the PD14 fan, if perm motors and Kutznetov exchange information)...

    I am sure they know what they are doing... Smile

    The only strange information (dated 2015) available in internet mentioned that, since they wanted to keep the same nacelle of the D18T, they will end up compromising the design and limiting the Bypass to a value of about 5,5 to1, the same as the old D18T, and with a specific fuel consumption slightly worse than the old D18T... but that does not make sense...unless we are talking about a solution that can be ready in a relatively short time and it is just a placeholder...

    Depends who is running or paying for the programme... if it is the military then they wont care about fuel consumption... they have x number of planes each needing 4 new engines... if they can keep the costs down they wont care about the fuel consumption difference... if fuel consumption was a primary concern then wait for a better engine to be delivered instead and get the full benefit of a new design...

    Worst case scenario they could have one of those external bladed fans that for a time were considered to be the way of the future... you can't get much more bypass than that... Smile

    and specific fuel consumption 0.565 kg / (kgf • h) with a thrust of 5000 kgf. According to the official data of Motor Sich PJSC, the thrust and specific fuel consumption of the D-18T series 3 in cruising mode in the same conditions is 4860 kgf and 0.546 kg / (kgf • h).

    So in cruising mode the new engine will create a total of 20 tons thrust, while the old engines would generate 19.44 tons thrust.

    0.565kgf per hour at 20 tons thrust is 11.3 tons of fuel per hour, while 0.546kgf per hour at 19.44 tons of thrust is 10.6 tons per hour... but with the extra thrust the aircraft with the new engines and old nacelles should be flying faster, which will reduce flight time and get you to where you were going faster.

    If the pilot with the new engines wanted to fly at the same speed and throttled back to 4860kgf per hour the difference in fuel consumption at the same thrust with the same engine covers so therefore at the same speed would be 10.98 tons per hour which is less than 300 kgs of fuel difference... considering the Ukrainian engine is no longer available and there are no spares that can be bought for it from anywhere I would say burning an extra 300 kgs of fuel an hour is not really a big deal... they will be replacing them in time anyway...

    It would be smarter to redesign the nacelle and allow the advantages of a higher bypass... in that case however this will mean that it will not be able to mount them in the existing an124 withoout modifying the pylons and the mounts as well...

    300kgs of fuel is about 300 litres... you are going to have to burn a lot of fuel before a redesign becomes profitable for the Russians... and keep in mind while I say they can export the engine to existing users, Ukraine will likely go after them for violating the terms of their contracts by letting Russians work on Ukrainian owned designs... it wouldn't matter for Russian planes because they pretty much make all the other parts so the Orcs can go suck on a lemon, but if you are an international company and they threaten to invalidate your warranties and block your supply of spare parts if you let the Russians touch the planes then it is more of a problem... and they don't care.... it is not like they are doing anything else like making engines or planes... they have lots of time on their hands.

    By the way, if I am not mistaken Kuznetov has in the not so remote past, already did a comparable operation (but smaller in scale), when they improved the D30 engine with a bigger fan to increase a bit the bypass.

    The PS-90A family of engines I think... the first two made with US help but III model Russian parts.

    As I wrote above, a few years ago (in the early 2000s) they also did a similar thing with the D30, increasing the thrust and the bypass ratio (from 2.2 to 3.65).

    Ahh, yes, now I remember... after the PS-90A engine was ready it was realised that a 6 million dollar new engine that burned less fuel than the D-30 was hard to justify... with four engines per aircraft that is a 24 million dollar bill for just one set of new engines when the originals cost about 600K each... 2.4 million dollars for original engines vs 24 million for new ones... 21 million dollars buys you a lot of fuel vouchers to cover the price difference.

    The real issue was noise and pollution emissions so they made an upgraded D-30 with better fuel efficiency that met the new requirements... I don't think it was much more powerful.... still only about 14 tons thrust but in cruise they operate at about 2 tons thrust anyway so it is not a big deal... for the new engine the price went up to 800K per engine... not as sophisticated or state of the art, but for most airlines and users much more practical...


    The results in term of SFC and emissions will not be on par with a fully modern engine, but it can be available soon (especially if they actually worked on it).

    This is a factor... if it is only for Russian military transports then noise and emission regulations don't apply.

    D-30KP-3 "Burlak"

    That is the one... didn't realise it had a 1 ton thrust increase...




    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2910
    Points : 2948
    Join date : 2018-01-22

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr 11/09/20, 03:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:The thing is that re-engining the An-124 is to basically replace the Orc engines... they don't need to be super powerful or super efficient... they just need to offer the right level of power and be Russian.

    In the long term the PD-35 is actually too powerful... remember the Ukrainian engines being replaced are about 23 ton thrust engines, so replacing four 23 ton thrust engines with a total of 92 tons thrust, with either two PD-35s with 70 tons of thrust or four PD-35s with 140 tons of thrust does not balance... it will either be under powered or over powered.

    Keep in mind that the 6 engined An-225 has 138 tons thrust so actually using four PD-35s on the An-225 would be a good plan as it reduces weight and complication by removing two engines but retains the thrust of all 6...

    The NK-32 of the Blackjack has a dry thrust of something like 14 tons and full AB thrust of 25 tons... using AB on a transport simply does not make sense but it is a low bypass turbofan engine... so essentially changing the front fans to make them 2-3 times bigger means the rear hot turbojet section sucking through vastly more cold air would dramatically increase thrust but would reduce the exhaust velocity... in other words the thrust might be 25 tons thrust without afterburner but the engines would now be way to wide to fit inside a Blackjack and certainly would render the aircraft subsonic only even if they could be adapted to fit.

    Essentially what they might be talking about is using the hot section of the NK-32 to drive a high bypass turbofan to get a quick simple 24-25 ton thrust non afterburning high bypass jet engine... wont have amazing performance but should be good enough to replace the Ukrainian engines.

    They wont need to use it on anything else... it could be kept on An-124s and exported to other operators of the aircraft that also now can't get Ukrainian engine parts...

    When the PD-35 is ready and other models like a PD-24 or whatever is needed they can put it on Slon and Il-106 type transports that will essentially eventually replace the An-22 and An-124 in Russian service... the replacement engines could be made for export too to support operators of the An-124 as well...

    You can't just take a 4 engine plane and convert it to a 2 engine or a 6 to a 4 It will require wholesale reengineering of the entire wing to the point of not being economic. you want to have something close to the same power range around 10-15% + is useful.
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2910
    Points : 2948
    Join date : 2018-01-22

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr 11/09/20, 03:51 pm

    Military definitly cares about fuel consumption for airlifters. It changes the range/payload capability significantly especially for Russia which does not have a global fleet of refuelling planes.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion


    Posts : 5958
    Points : 5910
    Join date : 2016-08-16
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Tsavo Lion 20/09/20, 05:18 am

    Tu-160 set a record for the range and duration of a non-stop flight
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2910
    Points : 2948
    Join date : 2018-01-22

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr 20/09/20, 10:57 am

    has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13483
    Points : 13523
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  PapaDragon 20/09/20, 12:23 pm

    mnztr wrote:has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?

    It can't

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40583
    Points : 41085
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  GarryB 03/10/20, 12:40 am

    Removed all the stuff about replacing carriers with strategic bombers and and the arctic etc etc.... to the talking bollocks thread in the general chat section.

    avatar
    owais.usmani


    Posts : 1830
    Points : 1826
    Join date : 2019-03-28
    Age : 38

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  owais.usmani 31/10/20, 03:20 am

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 12312810

    George1, flamming_python, dino00, magnumcromagnon, Big_Gazza, kvs, tanino and like this post

    dino00
    dino00


    Posts : 1677
    Points : 1714
    Join date : 2012-10-13
    Age : 37
    Location : portugal

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  dino00 04/11/20, 03:57 am

    Tu-160M ​​first took to the air with new engines russia

    MOSCOW, November 3 - RIA Novosti. The deeply modernized Tu-160M bomber made its maiden flight with new engines, the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) reported .
    "The first flight of Tu-160M ​​with new production engines NK-32-02 took place at the KAZ aerodrome named after Gorbunov. The plane was piloted by the crew led by Anri Naskidyants. The flight took place at an altitude of 6,000 meters and lasted 2 hours and 20 minutes," the company noted.

    https://ria.ru/20201103/dvigatel-1582868395.html

    franco, markgreven, Big_Gazza, kvs, Maximmmm, thegopnik, LMFS and lancelot like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11134
    Points : 11112
    Join date : 2018-03-25
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Hole 04/11/20, 09:02 am

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Tu-16011
    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Tu-16012

    markgreven, George1, dino00, Big_Gazza, PapaDragon, Maximmmm, zardof and lyle6 like this post

    Maximmmm
    Maximmmm


    Posts : 320
    Points : 321
    Join date : 2015-07-28
    Location : Switzerland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Maximmmm 05/11/20, 12:42 am

    It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4916
    Points : 4906
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Big_Gazza 05/11/20, 02:55 am

    Nice pic of the NK-32-02

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 8486920_original

    George1, Arrow, dino00, kvs, PapaDragon, Maximmmm, DerWolf and like this post

    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2910
    Points : 2948
    Join date : 2018-01-22

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr 05/11/20, 04:38 am

    Maximmmm wrote:It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not the M2 TU-160. Its a completed older frame and a testbed for the new avionics.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 11134
    Points : 11112
    Join date : 2018-03-25
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Hole 05/11/20, 08:44 am

    That´s why he wrote "new Tu-160 flying soon". Wink

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40583
    Points : 41085
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  GarryB 05/11/20, 12:24 pm

    There were four unfinished Tu-160s when the Ukraine stopped cooperating... two of which were completed but two more that could not be completed because the box structure that houses the swing wing structure is huge and is made of titanium that has to be wielded in a low oxygen forge... the only place on the planet that could do that was now in the Ukraine, so they were never going to complete those two planes because the cost of building a forge big enough to complete them would be enormously expensive and not something that could be justified to finish two planes.

    Fortunately for Tupolev Russia has decided to make the PAK DA which will be a large flying wing made of large titanium sections with large one piece box structures that required a similar forge to the one used to make the original Blackjacks... but in this case built in Russia.

    Who knows they might use the same facility to make the PAK DP high speed interceptor...

    The point is that now they can build more Blackjacks and make them into a viable and useful fleet of aircraft that will become more affordable... with fifty more aircraft that means 200 more engines and unification with the Tu-22M3M design means 60 of those will need another 120 engines so that is 320 engines they need which makes developing a brand new engine viable as well... and guess what... the engine for the subsonic strategic range PAK DA flying wing that will be based on this new engine will also be useful for long range airliners and heavy and super heavy transports as well... a gift that just keeps giving.

    The first 16 odd Blackjacks were different... lots of changes.... a bit like prototypes in many ways... but now they can focus on a new revised and improved design they can apply to new planes and to upgrade older planes to this new standard so they will be cheaper and easier to service... right now they likely have a service manual for each aircraft showing the differences and different equipment etc... not so efficient or desirable.
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2910
    Points : 2948
    Join date : 2018-01-22

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr 05/11/20, 02:05 pm

    Will the last 2 unfinished be completed or will they just go ahead with the M2 variant?
    Maximmmm
    Maximmmm


    Posts : 320
    Points : 321
    Join date : 2015-07-28
    Location : Switzerland

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Maximmmm 06/11/20, 12:19 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Maximmmm wrote:It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but this is not the M2 TU-160. Its a completed older frame and a testbed for the new avionics.

    Yeah you're right and it's why I wrote "soon".
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15881
    Points : 16016
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  kvs 06/11/20, 07:46 am

    Maximmmm wrote:It's really good news. Kuznetsov was really struggling to restart production since the whole factory had gone to the dogs. Only 2 year delay in delivering the engines is pretty acceptable imho, considering how much work had to be done. Plus it's a modernized variant.
    If you would have told me 10 years ago we'd be seeing new production Tu-160s flying soon I'd have been giddy.

    Pretty acceptable? Two years is miraculous. Even China with all its massive resources couldn't pull something off like this.
    As for the USA, it is hard to tell what engine innovation they actually have. I do not think they evenhave an NK-32 class engine.
    The GE F101 is basically half of the NK-32. Given the rot in the US MIC, it would take more than 2 years for even just an
    improved version of GE F101 to be put into service. And that is without losing the production infrastructure.

    People are always putting Russia down, whether consciously or subconsciously. All that hate propaganda has effectively
    propagated in the world information space. There are simply no objective comparisons and 100% spin instead.

    GarryB likes this post

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5169
    Points : 5165
    Join date : 2018-03-04

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  LMFS 06/11/20, 09:00 am

    Actually they had big delays providing the engine (it was not a two years project) and the whole Tu-160 restart program has been a massive struggle, but it is definitely worth the effort, such a platform is priceless...

    PapaDragon likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13483
    Points : 13523
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  PapaDragon 06/11/20, 09:18 am

    LMFS wrote:Actually they had big delays providing the engine (it was not a two years project) and the whole Tu-160 restart program has been a massive struggle, but it is definitely worth the effort, such a platform is priceless...

    Correct, it was a massive pain in the ass but they pressed on and are now back in the game

    Contrast that with stuff like Soviet lunar program where they dumped shitload of time and money only to give up right before the end zone just because they weren't first anymore


    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11605
    Points : 11573
    Join date : 2015-11-07

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Isos 06/11/20, 09:26 am

    Tu-160 was expensive even for USSR.

    It's a shame that they let Ukraine destroy plenty of them.
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 2910
    Points : 2948
    Join date : 2018-01-22

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  mnztr 06/11/20, 09:50 am

    Maybe they will use the NK-32 for the PAK-DP? The Mig-31 already has 70K lbs of thrust, so 110K on a larger airframe would make for a pretty potent interceptor capable of carrying all kinds of weapons.
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15881
    Points : 16016
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  kvs 06/11/20, 11:48 am

    LMFS wrote:Actually they had big delays providing the engine (it was not a two years project) and the whole Tu-160 restart program has been a massive struggle, but it is definitely worth the effort, such a platform is priceless...

    Would you really claim it was a hohum non-achievement if the "delay" was 8 years? As we see from the PAK-FA engines, it takes a long time
    to come out with new ones and reworking old ones to get 10% more fuel economy is not some nose picking exercise.

    If we were in 1999 nothing would be happening at all and only a Ukrainian style dissolution would be in progress. Russia should thank its
    lucky starts for Putin's "regime" and the various "delayed" military projects. BTW, military projects are not civilian projects so a lot of the
    yapping about delays is BS. Delays relative to what?

    LMFS
    LMFS


    Posts : 5169
    Points : 5165
    Join date : 2018-03-04

    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  LMFS 06/11/20, 01:02 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Would you really claim it was a hohum non-achievement if the "delay" was 8 years?   As we see from the PAK-FA engines, it takes a long time
    to come out with new ones and reworking old ones to get 10% more fuel economy is not some nose picking exercise.  

    If we were in 1999 nothing would be happening at all and only a Ukrainian style dissolution would be in progress.   Russia should thank its
    lucky starts for Putin's "regime" and the various "delayed" military projects.   BTW, military projects are not civilian projects so a lot of the
    yapping about delays is BS.   Delays relative to what?

    No, I totally agree this is a massive success, absolutely relevant and necessary. I was just clarifying that it was a very difficult endeavour. Putin himself had to pull their ears a couple of times, it demanded to process huge amounts of documentation, it has been claimed as a major achievement of the Russian aerospace industry which actually needed sharing resources of all the main companies to see it done. That is why I say the platform is "priceless", because it is just by major resolve and political will that such can be created.

    I personally find it very rich how "failures" and "successes" are so lightly attributed by us external observers, without understanding the efforts and difficulties that stand behind feats and platforms that only very few nations (or just one like for the Tu-160) can accomplish. The same goes about constant whining over status of naval industry etc etc. That Russia can even try and achieve what they are achieving, even after many attempts and frustration, has enormous merit IMHO. Nobody should expect the full restoring of the MIC after the 90's could be a cake walk...

    kvs likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Tu-160 "White Swan" - Page 35 Empty Re: Tu-160 "White Swan"

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is 26/11/24, 11:54 am