Naval Air Defence systems

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

Isos wrote:Russian navy isn't going to use shtil. It was already mounted on grigorovitvh which were upgraded of old soviet frigate meant for Indian navy. The fact is that they knew Gorshkov will take time to be ready so they ordered some of them.

The only other ships that can use shtil are Sovromenys which use older version. They can be upgraded with VLS (Chinese are doing this) but they won't as they will be replaced by gorshkovs.

But russia's main navy anti air defence systems will be Redut (Gorshkov and Steregouchy), and future S-400F ( for destroyers and cruiser, which is still not ready for naval use) and pantsir and tor for smaller vessels.

Concerning Nakhimov, I don't think it ill get Redut which is too "small" for such a ship. The VLS can't take bigger missiles like 48N6E, just 9M96. An upgrade to S-300FM is more usefull while S-400F is not ready, at least I never heard of a naval S-400. Redut is more navale S-350 than, like some articles say, a naval S-400.

It was said that the Nakhimov will be equipped with S-400PMU/Fs on her refit

There is no such thing as a 'S-400F' and won't be. You had the S-300F and then that sort of evolved into a more modular and flexible system with a smaller footprint - the Redut VLS. They're not going to take a step back from that now.

IMO it doesn't make too much sense to talk about S-300s/S-400s in the naval context. As S-300/400 battallions are composed not only of launch & reload vehicles, but search radars, tracking/engagement radars, command vehicles and other infrastructure. That's why it makes sense to call them these different designations.

However on a ship all of those functions are handled by the ship's sensors and control systems itself, and also via interfacing with other ships and whatever other assets.

So the only differentiation between a S-300 and S-400 that's left in the naval context - are the missiles themselves.

And the missiles of the S-300P/S-300F are being phased out along with these systems themselves, while the newer missiles have been unified between S-350, S-400 and Redut VLS (and partially S-300PMU); except for the fact that the largest missiles are only compatible with the S-400 launch vehicles, from what we know.

The Nakhimov will be equipped with Reduts; the only question is will those Reduts be compatible with the long and ultra-long range 48N6 series missiles. I would guess yes. Befitting a ship of its class.

Ideally it would have S-500 missiles; but as the S-500 is only going to be introduced on land by 2019 - the time-frame is way too tight to develop and test a naval version for the Nakhimov, along with all the radar and sensor modifications for that class of weapon.
Perhaps the Peter the Great will eventually get the S-500 on its next modernization.

flamming_python wrote:

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

Isos wrote:Russian navy isn't going to use shtil. It was already mounted on grigorovitvh which were upgraded of old soviet frigate meant for Indian navy. The fact is that they knew Gorshkov will take time to be ready so they ordered some of them.

The only other ships that can use shtil are Sovromenys which use older version. They can be upgraded with VLS (Chinese are doing this) but they won't as they will be replaced by gorshkovs.

But russia's main navy anti air defence systems will be Redut (Gorshkov and Steregouchy), and future S-400F ( for destroyers and cruiser, which is still not ready for naval use) and pantsir and tor for smaller vessels.

Concerning Nakhimov, I don't think it ill get Redut which is too "small" for such a ship. The VLS can't take bigger missiles like 48N6E, just 9M96. An upgrade to S-300FM is more usefull while S-400F is not ready, at least I never heard of a naval S-400. Redut is more navale S-350 than, like some articles say, a naval S-400.

It was said that the Nakhimov will be equipped with S-400PMU/Fs on her refit

There is no such thing as a 'S-400F' and won't be. You had the S-300F and then that sort of evolved into a more modular and flexible system with a smaller footprint - the Redut VLS. They're not going to take a step back from that now.

IMO it doesn't make too much sense to talk about S-300s/S-400s in the naval context. As S-300/400 battallions are composed not only of launch & reload vehicles, but search radars, tracking/engagement radars, command vehicles and other infrastructure. That's why it makes sense to call them these different designations.

However on a ship all of those functions are handled by the ship's sensors and control systems itself, and also via interfacing with other ships and whatever other assets.

So the only differentiation between a S-300 and S-400 that's left in the naval context - are the missiles themselves.

And the missiles of the S-300P/S-300F are being phased out along with these systems themselves, while the newer missiles have been unified between S-350, S-400 and Redut VLS (and partially S-300PMU); except for the fact that the largest missiles are only compatible with the S-400 launch vehicles, from what we know.

The Nakhimov will be equipped with Reduts; the only question is will those Reduts be compatible with the long and ultra-long range 48N6 series missiles. I would guess yes. Befitting a ship of its class.

Ideally it would have S-500 missiles; but as the S-500 is only going to be introduced on land by 2019 - the time-frame is way too tight to develop and test a naval version for the Nakhimov, along with all the radar and sensor modifications for that class of weapon.
Perhaps the Peter the Great will eventually get the S-500 on its next modernization.

Yeah....  the Talk about S-400s on the Nakhimov were just based on articles i've read about the Nakhimov's refit....  
(Want to post links to them but i can't but searching Admiral Nakhimov S-400 in Google brings up articles from Naval Recognition, Sputnik, RBTH and other sites about the S-400 being equipped into the Nakhimov for her refit... Deagel also has an short info page for the S-400F for the Nakhimov)

I wasn't aware you can equip Redut VLS with 48N6 missiles....  
Last i saw someone suggesting that, people said it was too big....

Besides...  Redut is still having issues with the guidance of its 9M96E2 missiles which range is only 120KM so i doubt it could effectively guide 48N6 missiles with its FCS....  
But i may be wrong...  
Would like if a mod or an admin could confirm this correct this for me  

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:I wasn't aware you can equip Redut VLS with 48N6 missiles....  
Last i saw someone suggesting that, people said it was too big....

Besides...  Redut is still having issues with the guidance of its 9M96E2 missiles which range is only 120KM so i doubt it could effectively guide 48N6 missiles with its FCS....  
But i may be wrong...  
Would like if a mod or an admin could confirm this correct this for me  

If you can fit 3x 9M96s tubes in the place of 1x full-size 48N6 on a S-400 launch vehicle; then I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to fit 1x 48N6 in a large Redut cell that occupies the space of 4 standard Redut cells. Even a 40N6.
Such an installation would have to be deeper (twice as much); hence perhaps why you haven't seen it yet in the ships which have Redut but are all quite a bit smaller than a Slava or Kirov class.
Perhaps software/sensor limitations play a role too as you hinted.

Either way, I would find it hard to imagine the Nakhimov being limited to just the 9M96s with a Redut. That would give it less range than the Pyotr Veliky with its S-300FM that's compatible with 48N6 missiles.

I guess they can just upgrade the Nakhimov's S-300F to a S-300FM too. However that's legacy technology at this stage, as would any further upgrade to it be to a S-300FM2, S-400F or whatever.

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

Yeah....  the Talk about S-400s on the Nakhimov were just based on articles i've read about the Nakhimov's refit....  
(Want to post links to them but i can't but searching Admiral Nakhimov S-400 in Google brings up articles from Naval Recognition, Sputnik, RBTH and other sites about the S-400 being equipped into the Nakhimov for her refit... Deagel also has an short info page for the S-400F for the Nakhimov)

I wasn't aware you can equip Redut VLS with 48N6 missiles....  
Last i saw someone suggesting that, people said it was too big....

It's S-300FM, same as currently on Peter the Great.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2310

'Product 3M-48 - 120 million rubles. [anti-aircraft missile system S-300FM]'

"The Poliment-Redut-R R&D work is focused on developing small-, medium-and intermediate-range missiles for arming the relevant ships,"

I find it weird that they're talking about Poliment-Redut as if its a completely new system rather than one that was supposed to be in service like 10yrs ago...

Why work on two different systems that fulfill the same role?  Seems redundant to me

It's quite confusing to me too.
I have 2 main theories:
An intentional Russian MoD organised Hi-Lo setup with blank page all-new tech Redut/S-350 High end, high risk vs modernised Sthil-1/Buk-M3 Low end, low risk.
Unintentional side-effect of letting various companies/design bureaux try to get Export orders. (Talwars have non-VLS Sthil-1, S-350 is supposed to be heavily based on work with South Korean K-sam)
Maybe a bit of both

Is this really what is being proposed for the Nakhimov Refit?

Sort of, sort of not.
There is no official list of what's changing/image of what it should look like. I think the 2nd pic is probably pretty close to what's known though.
There is a price-list of components that are supposedly going into it & a few official quotes.
10* UKSK modules has been quoted = 80* Onyx/Kalibr/Zircon even though the area appears to give room for more (hence a bunch of fan-art pics show many more than 80 cells)
I believe 6* Naval Pantsir has been quoted. (= 192* ~15km missiles)
The price-list includes the large Podberezovik, Fregat, Poliment (most people missed the 5P-20K code), Puma fire control radars, updated S-300FM (which might include the 48N6 from S-400) there is no new S-300 grid-style VLS (other than some English language references to one called Krepost) so presumably will continue to use the existing 12* 8-cell rotary launchers = 96* long range SAMs, no Redut launchers mentioned but seems an obvious addition that can replace Tor/Osa, your 2nd pic has 56* cells which seems a bit light but not bad in context of 96* longer & 192* shorter range missiles.

chicken wrote:

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

Yeah....  the Talk about S-400s on the Nakhimov were just based on articles i've read about the Nakhimov's refit....  
(Want to post links to them but i can't but searching Admiral Nakhimov S-400 in Google brings up articles from Naval Recognition, Sputnik, RBTH and other sites about the S-400 being equipped into the Nakhimov for her refit... Deagel also has an short info page for the S-400F for the Nakhimov)

I wasn't aware you can equip Redut VLS with 48N6 missiles....  
Last i saw someone suggesting that, people said it was too big....

It's S-300FM, same as currently on Peter the Great.


'Product 3M-48 - 120 million rubles. [anti-aircraft missile system S-300FM]'

Ah....  
Well...
Shit....  

Not saying the S-300FM is bad tech but its definitely old (17 Years)....   Wouldn't be that confident engaging NATO aircraft with late 2000s or Early 2010s DECM/OECMs (F/A-18G with its AN/ALQ-214V2 IDECM as an example or the AN/APG-81 AESA radar which has OECM capabilities)   150KM is also not that great for an AD Range for Capital ships....    (SM-6 for comparison has a range of 240-400KM tho i suspect effective range with high POH is around 200-300KM)

I can see why the RuN is lacking behind in pushing out new Weapons systems tho...    
The predicted 250KM range of the 48N6 Missiles would be a nice stop gap until a we get better ULR SAM Systems to be used as standard like a Naval version of the S-500....
Also that list didn't speak of any Weapon modification of changes as well...  only S-300FM....  
Strange.....

*Note When i say late 2000s i meant as an Era (2005-2010) and early 2010s (2010-2015)....

updated S-300FM (which might include the 48N6 from S-400)

Update yet no change to the Name of the system? I guess its update to FCS....   Also I doubt the FCS of the S-300F series can guide missiles to the ranges of beyond 180KM as effective as the S-400...  Again..  its still based of the original S-300FM FCS with some refurbishment....    I can see the Redut system being able to operate it with Updates to the System but....   Unless the russians built the Program Architecture of the S-300F FCS like AEGIS but as far as i know, it wasn't....   Russia's first attempt at an AEGIS-like system is the Poliment-Redut Universal System as far as i know which is more recent so i doubt the S-300F's FCS is that adaptive... Or else there would be no reason to create the S-400 combat Package if S-300s with system updates were adequate enough to operate 48N6E3 (I'm aware that newer S-300s can operate 48N6 missiles but the E3 variant is what we want as it fits the bill for Naval ULR missiles of the modern age... and last i checked, the 48N6E3s are exclusively being run by S-400s right now)

10* UKSK modules has been quoted = 80* Onyx/Kalibr/Zircon even though the area appears to give room for more

Russians can probably fit more than 10 UKSK modules (And they probably should since they will be playing with a lot of Surge attacks and missile barrages against US destroyers with AEGIS)....  
I hope they do...

no Redut launchers mentioned but seems an obvious addition that can replace Tor/Osa

Osa-MA's era as PD systems has already been long over....  Their missiles probably won't even track Tomahawk BLK IV MMT (Multi-Mission AShM capable) or Harpoon IIs (Updated) after launch because the 9K33M's seeker is most likely going to get spoofed by their onboard DECM untill they reach EOS targeting distance....  but by then, they would have failed in their job and the CIWS would take over instead.... Reduts would make a good system to use now using their (9M96 Baseline as medium Range and 9M100s as PD)

An intentional Russian MoD organised Hi-Lo setup with blank page all-new tech Redut/S-350 High end, high risk vs modernised Sthil-1/Buk-M3 Low end, low risk.

I can see that as use until the russians have finished testing the Redut System and can fully replace the Shtil-1....    Shtil-1 can be kept as export i guess.... Or be integrated to the Redut system... Either way...  Shtil-1 is long overdue IMO and with the standard it has (40-50KM only?), Better focus R&D to the Redut system which is more comparable to the SM-2ERs for reference.....

Update yet no change to the Name of the system?

Its what they say
On one hand S-300 with its bewildering array of variants & possible configs is kinda the poster child for modular upgradable & scalable land based SAM so I don't discount possibility of capability upgrades under same designation.
Maybe they have unused S-300FM stuff sitting in a warehouse from when they were finishing off PtG?
On the other hand Ustinov just had a big upgrade but still has S-300F designation & there's no mentions of improved capability.

Osa-MA's era as PD systems has already been long over

I meant replace as in use the physical location (though also Ustinov apparently retains Osa for some reason)

until the russians have finished testing the Redut System and can fully replace the Shtil-1.... Shtil-1 can be kept as export i guess.... Or be integrated to the Redut system

For my part having developed & put Stihl-1 into service I want to see them build more ships with it.
Its a pretty big missile with very medium range but it seems silly to waste that effort on only 3 or 6 orphan 11356es.

Osa-MA's era as PD systems has already been long over.... Their missiles probably won't even track Tomahawk BLK IV MMT (Multi-Mission AShM capable) or Harpoon IIs (Updated) after launch because the 9K33M's seeker is most likely going to get spoofed by their onboard DECM untill they reach EOS targeting distance.... but by then, they would have failed in their job and the CIWS would take over instead.

Neither OSA or TOR have seekers on their missiles... they are all command guided... so as long as a radar on the ship can track the target OSA or TOR should be able to hit it.

There is no talk of S-400 but all the electronics and systems will likely be upgraded to S-400 level even if old missiles are used.

Eventually newer missiles based on the new large S-400 will be made and may be called S-400 or maybe not.

When S-500 enters service then larger launch tubes make sense anyway.

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:Osa-MA's era as PD systems has already been long over....  Their missiles probably won't even track Tomahawk BLK IV MMT (Multi-Mission AShM capable) or Harpoon IIs (Updated) after launch because the 9K33M's seeker is most likely going to get spoofed by their onboard DECM untill they reach EOS targeting distance....  

Complex "Оса" (domestic version for the Army) are routinely tested against representative targets of product BGM-109 and ATACM and show not problem in theirs interception , in particular the subsonic former representing one of the most trivial target among aerodynamics ones.


https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/6975/


I believe that not a single further word is necessary to add on the performances of the latest version of "Tomahawk" cruise missile (TLAM Block IV), its abysmal level is under the eyes of anybody with the last attack to the Al-Shayrath air base.

I believe that the hidden details of this attack will "resurface" in the next years, when theirs military and ,even more diplomatic, impact will be much lower, if any, in comparison with the existing boundary traced by Russia-US  de-confliction and ROE agreement at the time in force in Syria.

Anyway sometimes numbers provide very important hints : USS Ross shot 36 missiles , USS Porter 23 (or probably 24 withg one malfunctioning at the start), just 23 missiles have reach Al-Shayrath air base.......

Mindstorm wrote:Anyway sometimes numbers provide very important hints : USS Ross shot 36 missiles , USS Porter 23 (or probably 24 withg one malfunctioning at the start), just 23 missiles have reach Al-Shayrath air base.......

What 23 - in the satellite pics you can count some 44 impact sites or craters; and some of those would have been targetted by 2 missiles so the US claim of 59 hits out of 60 launches (with 1 launch malfunction) looks accurate.

Rowdyhorse4 wrote:

updated S-300FM (which might include the 48N6 from S-400)

Update yet no change to the Name of the system? I guess its update to FCS....   Also I doubt the FCS of the S-300F series can guide missiles to the ranges of beyond 180KM as effective as the S-400...  Again..  its still based of the original S-300FM FCS with some refurbishment....    I can see the Redut system being able to operate it with Updates to the System but....   Unless the russians built the Program Architecture of the S-300F FCS like AEGIS but as far as i know, it wasn't....   Russia's first attempt at an AEGIS-like system is the Poliment-Redut Universal System as far as i know which is more recent so i doubt the S-300F's FCS is that adaptive...  Or else there would be no reason to create the S-400 combat Package if S-300s with system updates were adequate enough to operate 48N6E3 (I'm aware that newer S-300s can operate 48N6 missiles but the E3 variant is what we want as it fits the bill for Naval ULR missiles of the modern age... and last i checked, the 48N6E3s are exclusively being run by S-400s right now)

Are you talking about the S-300F's 3R41 Volna engagement radar of late-70s vintage? I'm pretty sure that replacing it with something more modern would be the least of all difficulties.

flamming_python wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:Anyway sometimes numbers provide very important hints : USS Ross shot 36 missiles , USS Porter 23 (or probably 24 withg one malfunctioning at the start), just 23 missiles have reach Al-Shayrath air base.......

What 23 - in the satellite pics you can count some 44 impact sites or craters; and some of those would have been targetted by 2 missiles so the US claim of 59 hits out of 60 launches (with 1 launch malfunction) looks accurate.

Actualy its not 23 its just 6 missiles that actualy reached an airbase. On satellite images you can not count any 23 impact sites, no matter how many yellow circles you draw over imaginary hits.

I'm pretty sure that replacing it with something more modern would be the least of all difficulties.

Well the most obvious difference between S-300F & S-300FM is the flap-lid as seen on PtG.

We know that Nakhimov is getting 2* S-300FM so that much is at least clearly getting changed.
But its not exactly bleeding edge on PtG is it? (and is there any clear reason why they only put 1 on PtG?)

On the other hand AEGIS ain't a spring chicken either, has had many upgrades over the years & there are significant variations in the installed equipment but it all still gets called AEGIS...

flamming_python wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:Anyway sometimes numbers provide very important hints : USS Ross shot 36 missiles , USS Porter 23 (or probably 24 withg one malfunctioning at the start), just 23 missiles have reach Al-Shayrath air base.......

What 23 - in the satellite pics you can count some 44 impact sites or craters; and some of those would have been targetted by 2 missiles so the US claim of 59 hits out of 60 launches (with 1 launch malfunction) looks accurate.

I hope that you do not refer to that self-embarrassing "analysis" by ISI ,with those at best imaginative yellow circles traced on an old satellite image of the Al-Shayrath air base.

I've seen in course of the latest years several trash-level "psychological-based" PR pieces in western media (aimed obviously at the bulk of the less informed easily gullible people in the public opinion), but one so openly inconsistent and basic in its deceiving mechanism I have difficulty to remember honestly.

It declare to have the evidence for 44 points of impact of TLAM on Al-Shayrath air base but show ......how strange

...only after-attack images of the points of impact already clearly visible in the UAV video provided by Russian MoD just few times after the attack (including thermal images clearly identifying the point of impact if actual TLAMs and secondary sympathetic detonations, like the two before one of the reinforced concrete hangar).

Those amateurish want-to-be PR operatives could begin with providing the after attacks images of the 10 ammunition storage sites "supposedly" hit in theirs child toy yellow circle infested old image. It will be VERY interesting

An old contributor to this forum , SOC - alias Sean O'Connor- in virtue if its vastly greater proficiency and intelligence, has at least attempted to provide a less laughable map of the after-attack impacts at the air base in an article for Jane's Defense named " Analysis : Satellite imagery refutes Russian claims about Tomahawk strike" (at now strangely unavailable at the same Jane's site ). In this piece, with some mental and semantics "triple mortal jump" and mixing point of impact collimating with UAV images and some fact twarting SOC attempt to provide some basis to save at least a fraction of the legendary 59 missile hits.....obviously without any hope of success.
At least one can appreciate the more evolute attempt

SOC (Sean O'Connor) is mostly on Facebook nowadays.

https://www.facebook.com/caffeinatedanalyst/?_fb_noscript=1

Serial production of naval Pantsir is officially a go:

https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/

Good.
Would have been nice to see an actual prototype or pre-series being tested though.

Russia launches serial production of seaborne air defense missile system

The development of the Pantsyr-ME seaborne surface-to-air missile and artillery complex has been completed



MOSCOW, June 23. /TASS/. The development of the Pantsyr-ME seaborne surface-to-air missile and artillery complex has been completed and the system has been launched into serial production, state hi-tech corporation Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov said on Friday.

"The development of the seaborne version of the Pantsyr air defense system that has no analogues in the world has been completed. The presentation of the Pantsyr-ME will be held at the International Maritime Defense Show in St. Petersburg," Chemezov said.

"The complex has already been launched into serial production," he added.

The Pantsyr-ME is the shipborne version of the Pantsyr antiaircraft missile/gun system. The system’s version for ground forces is called Pantsyr-S.

The International Maritime Defense Show will be held in St. Petersburg on June 28 - July 2.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/953074

Interesting they have gone for the twin barrel cannon models rather than the gatlings.

The twin barrel guns have a lower rate of fire but likely less vibration and movement during firing so would generate much tighter groups.

They already fire at a high rate... 2,000-2,500 rpm per gun, so less than half the rate of fire each, but with better accuracy then fewer rounds would be needed.

Another factor is the new time fused rounds... the twin barrel design has a muzzle device that can detect the muzzle velocity of rounds as they are fired... I would suspect they could use an induction coil to fuse the rounds as they are loaded, and the coil at the muzzle will determine their precise muzzle velocity, so accurate settings for the distance at which the shells will explode should be rather more effective than with a 6 barrel gatling gun.

Are you sure in that? Or you claim that becouse photo in post above? In photo it could be production of ground based units.

No, just based on photo...

Previously Kashtan and Kashtan-M have used 6 barrel gatling guns as standard within the Soviet Navy.

The original Pantsir had single barrel 2A72 cannon with a very low rate of fire but rather accurate.

They were replaced by the twin barrel 2A38M cannon of the tunguska due to rate of fire issues.

This is the first time a land based air defence gun/missile system has been adapted for naval use... so would they keep the land based guns or adapt them to the naval guns?

As I mentioned the muzzle of the 2A38M has an induction coil over one barrel and a shield over the other to measure the muzzle velocity of the rounds as they are fired.

A fuse setter could be used to set the timing fuse of the rounds based on the data about the incoming threat and muzzle velocity of the rounds as they are fired to ensure rounds detonating near the target to ensure instead of needing a direct hit to be effective, the rounds could detonate in the path of the incoming threat showering them in shrapnel of the exploding shells... an almost guaranteed hit...

Of course with a gatling gun the radar director can continue to track outgoing shells and perform the same role I suppose.

KPB Tula make Pantsir-S and Kashtan-M so they could use the gatlings too.