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Isos wrote:They are actively using iranian drones. Certainly not russian made ones.
They've been actively using Russian drones of every type since the operation started
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UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2
flamming_python- Posts : 9392
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They've been actively using Russian drones of every type since the operation started
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flamming_python wrote:Isos wrote:They are actively using iranian drones. Certainly not russian made ones.
They've been actively using Russian drones of every type since the operation started
Yes, what Russia lacked till now was the attack drones (like reaper, predator and similar) and also the small suicidal drones.
There are several in development (altius, Orion etc) but till now Russia mainly used and produced reconnessaince type drones (apparently Orion has also some strike capabilities, but I do not know if it has been used in Syria or ukraine in this way).
Anyway, here a reply from a post in the Ukrainian thread
okhotnik is way bigger and faster (almost 1000 km/h) than both or those drones and it's powered by one Su-35 engine.Serberus wrote:famschopman wrote:
More a question; I was just wondering if Russia has a predator/reaper like equivalent, it feels like this capability should be top priority?
S-70 Okhotnik?
https://youtu.be/4iUp_tgsHeY
Carries huge payload, dropped a 500kg bomb in a test, apparently stealthy, flies at high speeds but still in development stage though
It is not something relatively cheap like the Turkish drone.
It is an unmanned fighter bomber, it is like comparing a small missile boat (the predator) to a gorshkov class frigate (the okhotnik)
The predator is powered by a 115 hp rotax 914 engine and it is comparable to the Turkish drone used by Ukraine and to the Iranian shahed 129.
The reaper instead is powered by a honeywell turboprop engine of about 900 hp.
Among the russian drones, the Altius is the most similar in capabilities and payload to the reaper, but it is uncoveniently powered by two engines instead of one (because until now there was no decent modern turboprop engine in production in that power range).
The engines are 2 twelve-cylinder diesel engines RED A03 / V12, produced in Germany (the same engine of the yak 152 trainer), each with 500 hp.
Probably starting from 2024 Russia will be able to do a derivative UAV with a single VK-800 turboprop (currently in development in the engine department of the Ural civil aviation plant (for the Baikal aircraft).
Concerning the predator equivalent instead, Russia is developing petrol engines for both drones and light civil aviation on this power range ( as i already posted in the Russian UAV thread), and they can either develop a new drone or possibly more easily do a russian derivative of the Iranian shahed 129 with Russian engines and russian parts.
Isos
Isos- Posts : 11489
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flamming_python wrote:Isos wrote:They are actively using iranian drones. Certainly not russian made ones.
They've been actively using Russian drones of every type since the operation started
Even their soldiers complain that they lack drones.
Now that iranian drones are doing the job, they write this piece of propaganda to try to save the face.
Hole- Posts : 11019
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Lancet and Kub suicide drones are being used massively in 404.
Armed Orion drone was used in Syria.
DPR and LPR soldiers were lamenting about a lack of small recon drones (multicopters).
Armed Orion drone was used in Syria.
DPR and LPR soldiers were lamenting about a lack of small recon drones (multicopters).
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2589
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The S-70 Okohtnik was very likely to become a successor to the Su-25 and therefore an attack (heavy) unmanned drone. My first "pick" for a unmanned fighter aircraft might be the GROM..It is possible that I am wrong, time will tell. The projected flight height is up to 12,000 meters, which is not too much, but not too little. After all, this picture is just a mockup and there will be many more changes.
That's just my opinion and nothing more..
That's just my opinion and nothing more..
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Isos- Posts : 11489
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Hole wrote:Lancet and Kub suicide drones are being used massively in 404.
Armed Orion drone was used in Syria.
DPR and LPR soldiers were lamenting about a lack of small recon drones (multicopters).
If they can't supply cheap small civilian quadcopter then they are doomed.
You can buy them online for tens of dollars to few hundred for better ones. They also have chinese support who produces most of civilian drobes worldwide yet they strugle getting them.
The problem of the russian army and MiC is the same as yours. They keep beleiving in their own lies instead of facing their issues.
Buying iranian drones didn't kill them. It was a fast solution to a big problem. They seem to be ashamed to admit they don't produce everything and have needs that can be quickly fullfied by external suppliers.
Even the US buy from other countries. You can't make everything.
Werewolf- Posts : 5922
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Isos wrote:
If they can't supply cheap small civilian quadcopter then they are doomed.
You can buy them online for tens of dollars to few hundred for better ones. They also have chinese support who produces most of civilian drobes worldwide yet they strugle getting them.
The problem of the russian army and MiC is the same as yours. They keep beleiving in their own lies instead of facing their issues.
Buying iranian drones didn't kill them. It was a fast solution to a big problem. They seem to be ashamed to admit they don't produce everything and have needs that can be quickly fullfied by external suppliers.
Even the US buy from other countries. You can't make everything.
Why are you making an issue where non is?
You also have no issue by just out lying as like Russia never operated any drones until now.
They have operated drones since day one as several people mentioned. You can lust all you want about large Reaper like drones, but they have very limited use against a country with serious AD capability. The drones that have been operating are rather small and hard to spot let alone fly just several dozen meters over the ground to avoid enemies AD from both sides. A Reaper drone would be an expensive one-way drone even today. The Ukrops have still some mobile ADs left that are just waiting for now months to pop out and down something significant. This is a propaganda war on the battlefield not actual Generals planing and conducting operations of operational let alone tactical level.
You seem to be affected by the propaganda posts on the internet rather than the development of the battlefield. I bet you won't be able to pin point a single event where Russia or Ukraine gained anything on the battlefield only due to some killer drones shifting the front line.
Drones have a psychological affect, that is certain, but the frontline moves only when artillery and combined arms of mechanized/motorized troops along with infantry reinforcement hardens the frontline while the enemy get obliterated.
I have the impression that drones somehow are wunderwaffle in some heads.
Yes, they are useful. Yes, they have their place to be, but they are not making any difference now on the big picture other than more memes on the internet and psychological warfare tool against Ukrops. The number of killed UAF or SS-LARPers by killer/kamikaze drones is still no where near to be considered significant. It is the buzzing/whizzling sound of a WW2 bomb that has more of an affect than the small explosive charge it carries.
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GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6109
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Rostec uses developments on the Su-47 Berkut fighter to create drones
It's about reverse sweep wing.
MOSCOW, 26 September. /TASS/. Developments in the creation of a reverse-swept wing and composite materials in the project of the Su-47 Berkut fighter are used today in the creation of domestic drones. This was reported to TASS at the state corporation Rostec on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the first flight of the experimental Su-47 aircraft, developed by the Experimental Design Bureau (OKB) of P. O. Sukhoi (part of the United Aviation Corporation, UAC).
As stated in the TASS article "The Black Wing of the Berkut": how the Su-47 fighter was created, information for which was provided by Rostec, "the colossal knowledge about the reverse-swept wing made of composite materials obtained in the tests of the Berkut is used to create unmanned aerial vehicles and civil aircraft.
The swept-back wing has less inductive drag, which increases the aircraft's take-off and landing characteristics, maneuverability, and subsonic flight range. But creating such a wing is a difficult task, when certain flight speeds are reached, the entire structure can be destroyed. The use of composite materials made it possible to achieve high rigidity characteristics.
Obninsk research and production enterprise Tekhnologiya (part of Rostec) was instructed to manufacture panels for the reverse-swept wing for the Berkut. The panels used a new material developed by VIAM, which was not inferior in its characteristics to the world's best carbon fiber samples in the 1980s.
"It was a difficult time. Factories were closing, in general the situation was difficult. And we received an order for the manufacture of a reverse swept wing for the Su-47. This is a colossal experience that served as a breakthrough not only for aviation, but also for our production. A method was introduced automated laying out of products for aviation equipment, the materials were brought to high quality, and it was an excellent practice for the workers," said Alexander Konashenkov, operator of machine tools with program control of ONPP Tekhnologiya.
On the Su-47 "Berkut" fighter, it was possible to introduce a number of new design and technical solutions that were not previously used on aircraft of this class: the implementation of a large degree of longitudinal static instability, the use of large-sized milled panels of double curvature in the design and composite materials in the loaded structural elements of the airframe etc.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/15864963
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Werewolf- Posts : 5922
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GunshipDemocracy wrote:Rostec uses developments on the Su-47 Berkut fighter to create drones
That is really surprising to hear, but maybe because I already thought it is a dead end despite being a great design. It is in my opinion the sexiest Fighter. Interesting to see if anything comes to life out of the Su-47. Now I am little bit hyped.
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Werewolf wrote:
Why are you making an issue where non is?
You also have no issue by just out lying as like Russia never operated any drones until now.
you have right here but IMHO you still don't see drones full potential. As for current state or RuAF/MIC regarding drones IMHO the long implementation time or rely too long development is related with not enough priority to drones. It might be MoD could not make up their minds to focus on specific concept of application and tried too many solutions?
But war is not always on time you expect it so Iranian drones is a great help - ready to use and very very price/effect effective.
I have the impression that drones somehow are wunderwaffle in some heads.
Yes, they are useful. Yes, they have their place to be, but they are not making any difference now
And here I respectfully disagree. They are not Wunderwffe, yet. Yes drones do make difference and they are the future of warfare. ATM they do not play a decisive role yet but their role can only grow. You loose manned fighter - problem is with pilot, the a one you train for years. Drone? you just build one.
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ALAMO- Posts : 7278
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The last thing to say is that it was dead.
The project was actually surprising in all aspects, starting with even making it flyable in the sad reality of the 90s.
Tons of new materials were used, and it flew hundreds of hours bringing tons of useful studies.
Some insiders are considering it as a milestone, that brought a whole new generation to light.
The project was actually surprising in all aspects, starting with even making it flyable in the sad reality of the 90s.
Tons of new materials were used, and it flew hundreds of hours bringing tons of useful studies.
Some insiders are considering it as a milestone, that brought a whole new generation to light.
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Werewolf wrote:GunshipDemocracy wrote:Rostec uses developments on the Su-47 Berkut fighter to create drones
That is really surprising to hear, but maybe because I already thought it is a dead end despite being a great design. It is in my opinion the sexiest Fighter. Interesting to see if anything comes to life out of the Su-47. Now I am little bit hyped.
No you're not or we both are :d
The swept-back wing has less inductive drag, which increases the aircraft's take-off and landing characteristics, maneuverability, and subsonic flight range.
doest it mean unmanned fighter? Drones till now are not really highly maneuverable. Looks like "Ruskies" are going to change it...
Isos- Posts : 11489
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Why are you making an issue where non is?
You also have no issue by just out lying as like Russia never operated any drones until now.
They have operated drones since day one as several people mentioned.
On hand you have soldiers complaining about lack of drones and russians buying iranian drones because they have no other solution...
....and...
...on the other hand you have you a random dude saying there is no problem with drones.
Even the russians are saying they have a huge gap in drones and you still manage to say everything is fine. Stop your pro russian bullshit.
Ukrainian managed to make a far better use of their chinese civilian drones than russians with their military drones.
Their drone tech is shitty. Their production is worse.
Werewolf- Posts : 5922
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They probably could make an unmanned fighter but it wouldn't be able to make much use of it's maneuverability capabilities. I am certain it is hard to program to be autonomous and remote control will have to much of a delay. I don't know I am not a scientist, but it is certainly interesting to keep an eye on further development.No you're not or we both are :d
The swept-back wing has less inductive drag, which increases the aircraft's take-off and landing characteristics, maneuverability, and subsonic flight range.
doest it mean unmanned fighter? Drones till now are not really highly maneuverable. Looks like "Ruskies" are going to change it...
Isos wrote:
On hand you have soldiers complaining about lack of drones and russians buying iranian drones because they have no other solution...
....and...
...on the other hand you have you a random dude saying there is no problem with drones.
They have used and deployed plenty of drones from Kamikaze drones to Targeting/Intel drones.
The biggest complain is for lack of drones comes from the grunts on the battlefield which indeed have been using Quadrocopters to lure out enemy forces and were often lost in the process. Many russians have donated and are still donating drones collectively. They indeed have asked russian bloggers, MoD and relatives for additional quadrocopters.
Isos wrote:
Even the russians are saying they have a huge gap in drones and you still manage to say everything is fine. Stop your pro russian bullshit.
There is the issue at hand...You said Russians don't use or have them and only now they have drones, which is the issue I am addressing. It's not Pro-Russian bullshit, but the sentiment of where the focus has to be. As soon as we would have some "Reaper-like" drone operating you would be amongst the crowd complaining why are the Russians to incompetent by loosing them to AD of the Ukrops. There are certain aspect of War you can not control to 100% and you still manage to pick up the smallest parts that have no real affect on the outcome of the war.
Iran was first to be sanctioned to the Moon and back and they didn't stuck their heads in the sand and did nothing. Russia is trying to built up entire sectors which have been sanctioned by the West. You can't just stomp out entire fleets and high-war production rates of drones if you don't have the facilities to build every little component on your own. Russia is lacking in this regard because they are currentely working on a long term solution.
You should quit the twatter sphere and look on the battlefield and numbers of KIA. Drones are at the bottom of the list of weapon systems with high kill ratio.Isos wrote:
Ukrainian managed to make a far better use of their chinese civilian drones than russians with their military drones.
Their drone tech is shitty. Their production is worse.
Where did the Ukrops made any difference with drones on the battlefield? Just one example with an obvious outcome that can be credited to drones. Please, one example!
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Isos- Posts : 11489
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You should quit the twatter sphere and look on the battlefield and numbers of KIA. Drones are at the bottom of the list of weapon systems with high kill ratio.
Where did the Ukrops made any difference with drones on the battlefield? Just one example with an obvious outcome that can be credited to drones. Please, one example!
You have plenty of videos showing destruction of russian tanks and artillery with dumb chinese drones armed with grenades.
Russia is strugling finding few HIMARS that are runing on the front during the day without cammo.
No one said drones maje you win a war and are the only weapons there but they are valuable.
And no one said russia isn't using drones. It's just that lack numbers and good tech.
Lot of video showed the hazardous accuracy of KUB suicide drones.
That's why they bought iranian drones. If what you say is true then they would have no need for them.
sepheronx- Posts : 8757
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What Russia bought were cheap and effective suicide drones. Observable and strike drones are still Russian ones. Orlan 10 is used by artillery and command units so and russias got thousands of them if not more.
Also, isos, Russia made it clear they aren't going to be part of the Twitter and telegram army and what you see is only part of it all.
And regarding artillery systems, you seem to ignore a major issue that has been mentioned dozens of times - mobile artillery systems have a high survivability rate because they do something others don't- they move. Meaning that once they unload their payload, they move. Since it takes seconds to unload their payload, it takes a minute or so to move away. No amount of drones will fix this issue and it's something Americans even admitted is a problem hence why they invested a lot developing them too.
Certain planes are ideal to be used in such an environment to detect the launches and monitor their movement. But there is a reason why the Ukrainians use forests and other ways to hide the equipment.
Anyway, Russian MoD saw a need for these Iranian suicide drones and now has local production. Probably using Russian comms and optics (contrary to what people may think or say, Iran has no microbolometer production as far any specialists are aware and most of theirs comes from China, which most countries do. Russia makes their own microbolometers).
Also, isos, Russia made it clear they aren't going to be part of the Twitter and telegram army and what you see is only part of it all.
And regarding artillery systems, you seem to ignore a major issue that has been mentioned dozens of times - mobile artillery systems have a high survivability rate because they do something others don't- they move. Meaning that once they unload their payload, they move. Since it takes seconds to unload their payload, it takes a minute or so to move away. No amount of drones will fix this issue and it's something Americans even admitted is a problem hence why they invested a lot developing them too.
Certain planes are ideal to be used in such an environment to detect the launches and monitor their movement. But there is a reason why the Ukrainians use forests and other ways to hide the equipment.
Anyway, Russian MoD saw a need for these Iranian suicide drones and now has local production. Probably using Russian comms and optics (contrary to what people may think or say, Iran has no microbolometer production as far any specialists are aware and most of theirs comes from China, which most countries do. Russia makes their own microbolometers).
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Isos- Posts : 11489
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They bought Mohajer-6 drones too which is an equivalent of Forpost.
The loitering drones are way better than zala product and a different class.
They manage to hit Odessa with them. Lancet et Kub have less than 40km range. Their warhead is also huge with a big fuel tank that burn the target.
It's a real power up for them.
The loitering drones are way better than zala product and a different class.
They manage to hit Odessa with them. Lancet et Kub have less than 40km range. Their warhead is also huge with a big fuel tank that burn the target.
It's a real power up for them.
sepheronx- Posts : 8757
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Isos wrote:They bought Mohajer-6 drones too which is an equivalent of Forpost.
The loitering drones are way better than zala product and a different class.
They manage to hit Odessa with them. Lancet et Kub have less than 40km range. Their warhead is also huge with a big fuel tank that burn the target.
It's a real power up for them.
My understanding is that the forepost drone alternative is to help with these particular suicide drones. And yeah, of course they will have much better range when they are also much larger too.
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Did this events shift the frontline? No.Isos wrote:
You have plenty of videos showing destruction of russian tanks and artillery with dumb chinese drones armed with grenades.
Do they have high kill ratio? Even if we counted all the propaganda videos by the Ukros we still wouldn't be able to make a claim that they made any outcome on the battlefield in their favor.
Now you are playing just dumb...Isos wrote:
Russia is strugling finding few HIMARS that are runing on the front during the day without cammo.
The HIMARS like most western Wunderwaffles were in command of the US for propaganda war on twatter. They provided the orcs with real time data and satelitte images to figure out where they can strike Russians or Russian positions without getting killed. That was their only purpose. They didn't achieve a single thing. Some potholes in a bridge smaller than potholes Russians are used to. HIMARS is a catastrophic failure on the battlefield and to be placed next to the St. Javelina. Propaganda tool and nothing more.
Isos wrote:
No one said drones maje you win a war and are the only weapons there but they are valuable.
Like I said and I can repeat it, maybe you will listen. Drones have their purpose and have much higher outcome on the battlefield if they are used to provide real time intel and provide targets for the Artillery. The Kamikaze drones or armed drones are useful mainly as psychological warfare tool to demoralize the already demoralized troops.
The big purpose of Iranian Kamikaze drones right now is to demoralize the forces that are not at the front getting torn to pieces by Russian artillery.
If we observe the Ukropian channels you can see that they are on 24/7 on their own propaganda and the moral of Ukrops across the entire country is very high because they don't know much about the suicide squads that are just literally thrown into a death trap. You could use these Kamikaze drones to demoralize the troops at the back, but why kill a few dozens when the Orcs send thousands daily to die?
Armed and Kamikaze drones have to be used to destroy single points of high importance.
They bought them mainly because there are opportunity to expand BRICS rather than the true purpose of the drones. Not to discredit their usefulness or quality, but Russia could have ignored all foreign supplies to not give in the perception of enemies propaganda, that Russia is running out of something or doesn't have something. Russia plays even now the BRICS relationships by also inviting willing countries to the referendum as observers and are leading role in the development and importance of BRICS.Isos wrote:
And no one said russia isn't using drones. It's just that lack numbers and good tech.
Lot of video showed the hazardous accuracy of KUB suicide drones.
That's why they bought iranian drones. If what you say is true then they would have no need for them.
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Isos wrote:They bought Mohajer-6 drones too which is an equivalent of Forpost.
Mohajer-6 has very good optics.
In any case, i don't see why is that a problem. Existence of problem was recognized and they bought more.
That's how it should be done.
Russia doesn't have anything comparable to Shahed 136. That drone has much bigger range and heavier warhead than any Russian kamikaze drone, currently in production.
It is a good solution, as not every target in the deep will not need Kalibr or some other missile, plus it is much cheaper. Also, it is much harder to detect by NATO, than missile launches. That is why Ukrainian AD isn't active and they use infantry weapons to try and shoot it down.
Last edited by caveat emptor on Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Isos- Posts : 11489
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Did this events shift the frontline? No.
Euh, yes the frobtline shifted and russians retreated and now are mobilizing.
Their drones are used effectively and their Himars too. With the few they had they managed to hit plenty of russian ammo stocks.
They also managed to hit a fucking airbase and destroy plenty of su-30 and su-24.
Ukrainians are fighting very well even if they lack weaonery advantage.
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Them hitting that airbase in Crimea had nothing to do with drones but more of a successful strike of Mlrs systems. Which emphasizes what I said on how these systems actually do change the battlefield quite a bit. Himars get all the attention but smerch, tos, etc are all similar in being able to make moves that are next to impossible to deal with. Drones have nothing to do with that of course.
I would wager the product 305E to be a far greater weapon in russias arsenal and huge advantage. What Russia has been striking with these Iranian drones are no different what they were hitting earlier. It's just much cheaper to do it this way honestly.
What we gather is also mostly from volunteer units and or Ukrainians. As I said, rest is radio silence on our end.
EW systems have been used and there is great limitation what drones can do. This has been proven multiple of times. It's good to use here and there but not to be used as a replacement for something else. Luckily Ukraine doesn't have a strong EW structure. If it did then these drones would be borderline useless.
I would wager the product 305E to be a far greater weapon in russias arsenal and huge advantage. What Russia has been striking with these Iranian drones are no different what they were hitting earlier. It's just much cheaper to do it this way honestly.
What we gather is also mostly from volunteer units and or Ukrainians. As I said, rest is radio silence on our end.
EW systems have been used and there is great limitation what drones can do. This has been proven multiple of times. It's good to use here and there but not to be used as a replacement for something else. Luckily Ukraine doesn't have a strong EW structure. If it did then these drones would be borderline useless.
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caveat emptor- Posts : 1970
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sepheronx wrote:Them hitting that airbase in Crimea had nothing to do with drones but more of a successful strike of Mlrs systems. Which emphasizes what I said on how these systems actually do change the battlefield quite a bit. Himars get all the attention but smerch, tos, etc are all similar in being able to make moves that are next to impossible to deal with. Drones have nothing to do with that of course.
Saky airport was act of sabotage or negligence. None of the MLRS Ukrainians have, can hit target so far away. Unless they got ATACMS missile, which would be discovered by AD, as it is rather big.
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sepheronx- Posts : 8757
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caveat emptor wrote:sepheronx wrote:Them hitting that airbase in Crimea had nothing to do with drones but more of a successful strike of Mlrs systems. Which emphasizes what I said on how these systems actually do change the battlefield quite a bit. Himars get all the attention but smerch, tos, etc are all similar in being able to make moves that are next to impossible to deal with. Drones have nothing to do with that of course.
Saky airport was act of sabotage or negligence. None of the MLRS Ukrainians have, can hit target so far away. Unless they got ATACMS missile, which would be discovered by AD, as it is rather big.
Very good point, it is indeed sabotage. Not the systems but lax in the counter intelligence at the time.
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At the end of the day, we are discussing a moot point. Who cares what color is the cat as long as it catches the mice.
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