Ka-27/29/31 Naval Helicopters

d_taddei2 wrote:A very unseen/unheard of version of the ka-27,
the Ka-29TB an assault version that can carry 16 troops plus weapons obviously intended for commandos etc. Has any seen or heard much about this version. Does Russia use it.

Most were inactive but they have been upgrading and putting back into service a few a year lately.

It is basically the Naval Hind... there were two models AFAIK, and they will be the standard troop helicopters for the new helicopter landing ships.

The Mistrals were supposed to carry a mix of these and the Ka-52K attack helos.

One model had a side mounted 30mm cannon next to the weapon pylon, while the other model which is the most common has a four barrel rifle calibre gatling gun behind a panel in the nose.... actually they were probably not different versions but different armament options for the same type.

I seem to recall that the model with the 30mm gun has the ammo inside the main cabin so when using it there is less room for troops inside, so they went for the other model to maximise the number of troops carried.

Would take 16 troop capacity with a grain of salt... with full gear probably less than this would be carried... maybe 8-10?



You can see the 2A42 barrel along the side of the aircraft in the above image.

Have no idea how many they have in service, but seem to remember for the anti piracy operations they used them to deliver naval infantry onto enemy ships and that sort of thing...

Will be the troop transport helo for the Ivan Gren vessels and the new helicopter carriers they will be laying down soon and could be carried by the Kuznetsov to deploy naval infantry.

By the time the Ivan Rogov and her sister ship hit the water it will be 2028-2030, so perhaps they will be using Minoga, which is supposed to replace all versions of Helix like the anti sub, troop transport, and AEW models.

A funny thing occurred to me looking at those photos of the helicopter in the air... the Helix has a rather long weapon bay down its centreline normally used for torpedoes and depth charges which made me wonder... those new rectangular rocket pods they are developing are probably 3-4 metres long so you could possibly mount one or two sets inside those bays in a way that the entire pod is lowered down to fire the rockets and can then be retracted up again just for some extra fire power.

Because of their length you would not fit a lot of pods under there but perhaps the new mini weapons for drones would allow quite a few bombs and missiles be carried there to attack small targets like speed boats or surface drones perhaps.

The new Minoga should have a rear ramp door which could allow gatling guns in rifle calibre or HMG calibre to be mounted for shooting at targets on the water... that would be great fun...

i think you are being pessimistic... like saying in 2008 the problems with unit navigation found in the conflict in Georgia wont be solved because funding for the Army before then had been minimal and much of it taken up with disposing and storing cold war stuff they have in abundance... but after the wakeup call of 2008 they turned most things around and GLONASS became useful and new equipment started getting deployed into service rather than just produced in tiny numbers for air shows and defence expos...

These two helicopter carriers should be in the water by 2028-2030 and they will need to be testing and operating craft on them... even if they use older aircraft to start off with they will at least have a test batch of Minoga helicopters to operate on the carriers in the early 2030s.

The Russian airforce upgrading Su-30s to essentially be two seat Su-35s does not mean the Su-57s are cancelled or even delayed.

I do understand your pessimism because we are talking about the Russian Navy, but I think things are going to change... they are going to have to change for the better because the Future of Russian trade is with the rest of the world which means by ship.

The substitute for the Ka-29 should be the easisest to do. It´s the basic version of the new heli + outriggers and some electronics (optics, ESM, ECM) from an already existing attack heli (most likely the Ka-52).

This new Minoga design, if it has a rear ramp door will actually be superior to the Ka-29 in terms of getting troops and weapons and light vehicles on and off... they would have two versions... a sort of Mi-24 and a Mi-8 version, the former for delivering troops and the latter for delivering troops and weapons and equipment... both of which likely armed with rockets and cannon and to a degree armoured and with ESM ECM EW protection suites.

I suspect they might go with less armament and more troop capacity but you never know.

The four barrel rifle calibre gatling gun in the nose is a bit weak perhaps... maybe having them in side door mounts to suppress enemy interests on landing and taking off, but I would try to fit a twin barrel 23mm gun in the nose with substantial ammo loads as that gun appears to be very good.

Rely on Ka-52s for support and fire power and just carry more troops the way the learned with the Hind and the Hip.

That is not the point, but that scarce resources should be used in more important things such as strategic deterrence, atomic submarines, missiles or drones, therefore the Soviet legacy will be squeezed to the maximum and particularly the Navy is what less priority.

Their navy is their access to world markets and will be critical moving forward...

Naval aviation will begin to develop after 2028 or 2030, therefore we will see all the reserves of planes and helicopters put into operation, as has been the case in recent years

I agree, but many legacy aircraft are going to be eliminated... the Minoga is going to replace the Helix family and in many cases especially on smaller ships but even on bigger ships the Helix might get replaced by the much lighter Ka-226 modular helicopter... I would think a new version of the Mi38 will replace the very popular and successful Mi-14, and of course some model of the Tu-204 should at some stage replace the Il-20/22 and Il-38 and Tu-142 in the recon and MPA roles.

The MiG-29s don't need replacement for a while but I think a new carrier based Su-57 would be worth funding, and they need to invest a lot on their naval air defence missiles to drag them up to the level of their land based equivalents... cooperation and coordination with land based SAMs and artillery gun systems should allow costs to be shared with the army... 152mm guns and perhaps even 203mm guns could be developed for Cruisers and Destroyers and coastal artillery platforms...

There is still a good amount of Ka-27 in reserve, which is enough to extend the resource for another 15 years.
Moreover, there is a number of Il-38 aircraft in reserve equivalent to those currently in service, which is enough to replace the existing ones with those in reserve and continue operating for another 15 years while a new ASW aircraft is developed.
The same can be said of the Tu-142, only half of the existing ones are used, in Mongokhto only 8 of the 16 that are usually in the base are used while the Kilepovo uses 10 or 12 of the 19 that are usually in the base. There are also several more Tu-142 stored in the Taganrog factory

The problem there is that using them at current rates what you say makes sense, but expanding their use as the navy gets more use and expansion then you are probably going to halve the buffer to 7.5 years before replacements have to start being looked at.

Obviously lots of areas that need attention and they can't all be addressed at once, so extend the lives of some platforms while focusing on new production for other things... upgrades to destroyers and cruisers while frigate design is sorted and corvette designs are decided on... I suspect either the standard or heavy frigates will go into serial production but not both... if both do then light for Black Sea and Baltic Sea and heavy for Northern fleet and Pacific fleet... and a variety of corvette types is normally good because they are too small to be fully multirole so having some with one bias and others to compliment them makes sense though you don't want 10 completely different types of course.

Therefore, Soviet planes and helicopters will continue to operate for a good number of years, especially considering that developing any aircraft takes many years, more than 12 or 15 years from the time it is designed until the devices begin to be received in combat units

I agree it does take time to develop replacements but I would say replacements have been in development for some time too, so I don't think 15 years is accurate... perhaps half that... which would mean about the same time the new helicopter carriers are supposed to be hitting the water...

In this picture you can see helicopters in reserve at Severomorsk-1 a few years ago, there are 12 Ka-29s and about 20 Ka-27s

A tempting target for Orcs...

It is not a question of optimism or pessimism, it is a question of realism based on limited resources and money.

The pessimism or optimism comes from the prediction of whether the resources and money will remain limited for the Navy or if the priority might shift focus now the Air Force and Army are getting all the new stuff they were having developed for them...

Ratnik III should be good enough to last for quite some time and only tweeks and adjustments and fixes needed... a Naval Ratnik and an Air Force Ratnik programme might be worth looking at too.

For the two Helicopter Carriers, the Ka-52K naval version has already been developing for a decade, personnel carrier helicopters are not a priority, the Ka-29 is available and can do the job, it is not something that makes a difference, that is why it has been put money into hypersonic missiles and other projects do not receive money and are stagnant for several years

Better helicopters including troop carrying helicopters are getting funding and are in need of development, there is also funding for higher speed helicopters too, whose new technology is being used to improve existing types with new rotor blades and engines and presumably new transmissions.

The new Su-57 has spurred on development of new air delivered weapons designed to be stored and used from internal weapon bays, and for the same reason the delivery of two helicopter carrying ships along with the Ivan Gren type landing ships is going to create demand not only for troop carrying helicopters of a naval type, but also armoured vehicles for the naval infantry units to replace their BTR-82s and T-55 tanks.

For example, the modernization of the Il-38N was suspended in 2015 when only 8 units had been modernized.

Yes, funding is tight, but the shift in relations with the west and the need to build up their own merchant fleet instead of relying on western ships and western ports means also a shift in focus... Russia can't rely on the British Navy or the US Navy or the French Navy to do the right thing in international waters and respect international law.

Russia doesn't need to establish Russian fleets in every ocean of the world, nor does it need to become some world police force, but it does need to expand its naval reach with good quality ships and subs and they are getting there... their frigate is excellent and the upgraded model looks even better and the quality of the Onyx and Calibre missiles has been proven as has the land based BUK and S-350 types, as well as Pantsir and TOR...

in Ukraine naval helicopters do not make a difference

Correct, but they deem naval helicopters important enough to build several Ivan Gren ships and two Ivan Rogov type helicopter carriers, which suggests a looming importance for future use of naval infantry forces around the world... they looked at Mistral boats but settled on a design that is supposed to have a two month endurance at sea with 1,000 naval infantry on board with their armour and helicopters... obviously it is better to have it big and not need it whole capacity than for it to be too small and inadequate.