Will HATO save its less important members if it does not suit them?

and any war against the US means being glassed in return.

There is no reason to positioned thousands of troops and waste money on it.

Since attacking any of them would mean war against all of NATO.

Sure Russia may take some ground in a rapid advance but if it attacked a NATO state.

It would be forced back by the overwhelming odds, Russia could not hope to take on all of NATO.

It lacks the production capability and the manpower, simply put merely being in NATO is more than enough.

of course, Ukraine is not in NATO so Russia could pretty much steamroll them.

Actually it's true for all the ex-USSR republic that are now in NATO. Most of them are not protected by nato, only some soldiers there for propagabda.

Not true... the baltic states and georgia and now the ukraine are greatly valued by their HATO allies... as useful places to put listening posts and radars and spy shit... but mainly light units that can be withdrawn quickly if needed... well maybe you are more right than they like to admit.

Since attacking any of them would mean war against all of NATO.

No it would not. If a Baltic state did something stupid and Russia responded... like Georgia did in 2008, there would be a lot of talk and waving or panties, but I rather doubt they would do much more than that...

The US will use any opportunity but when push comes to shove they are not actually keen on direct fighting against Russia or China for that matter.

It would be forced back by the overwhelming odds, Russia could not hope to take on all of NATO.

Wow... the mantra as spoken in the bible of HATO... but let me ask you... if the US felt it was defending itself and was in the right do you think it would stop doing something for fear they might end up fighting Russia?

of course, Ukraine is not in NATO so Russia could pretty much steamroll them.

Hahahahahaha... and there it is.... and you can bet your bottom dollar that if it was Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania there might be a reason to turn a blind eye too...

If they look hard enough I am sure they can find it... HATO is supposed to be a collective defensive organisation... who did Serbia attack? Why HATO troops including Ukrainian and Georgian in Iraq and Afghanistan?

It is Americas brute squad.

Why would any Baltic state attack the Federation? they will never do such a thing.

You are suggesting an action that is devoid of any degree of intelligence.

Be bias all you want Garry, attack any NATO member means war with all of NATO.

If you think russia would win that war you're beyond bias, they would have zero chance.

Those countries aren't NATO and have nothing to do with the point I was making, bringing up countries outside of NATO to try and argue your point is idiotic Garry and it just a cheap deflection tactic.


@Mike it's also not a bluff if Russia decided to annex the baltics states, whats to say it won't think about going after others. Again be bias all you want and your statements reflect that.

That's your logic "Oh the baltic states are saying bad things about Russia, so the russian can totally bomb them" Why you fing kidding me Lol. I am going to pretend you did not say this.

People here are just insane, I swear. Completely clueless has to how matters like these work, Russia isn't going to bomb the Baltics over US missile batteries or mean words.

WW3 would have started if any of you had a say, I swear.

It's unlikely we would push into Russia, just push them back to their boarders and Russia would suffer a cost for trying to invade if it ever did.

Tell me genius when did I ever say six men would defeat the Russian army?.

I clearly said "Russia would lose against NATO"

Is NATO made up of six men? I am beyond confused at what you just said.

Did you not think at all before you typed because it clearly sounds like you did, your remark was moronic to a T.

as I said if you think we would just let Russia annex the Baltics you are delusional so very very delusional. Armchair experts think they know all when all people like you would do is send millions to their deaths, sickening really.

Also stupid to suggest NATO would do nothing about that. Iso I don't think your a moron but your views here are stupid for sure.

sure Russia would have the advantage in the open stages and it would gain some ground but once millions of men and equipment are moved in Russia would suffer death on a massive scale not seen since WW2, of course, they would do the same to us. the difference is, Russia's homeland would be easy to target after the first few months.

Russia poses no threat to the US in that way, their subs would be hunted down and destroyed. Their navy would be stuck near the shorelines and without that cover from surface ships their subs are easy prey.

NATOvsRussia is not a war that would end well for them, nor could their population sustain millions of men dead over the baltics.

But be my guest demand war with NATO and cost millions their lives, I only hope you have the decency to fight in the war you promote nothing is worse to me then an able body men who sends people to die for their beliefs and doesn't have the gal to fight for those beliefs.

Btw Putin himself has always said "War with NATO would be suicide"

Not touching the Baltics is a better choice than seeing their entire nation wiped off the map.

It's ignorant of reality to think because Russia has nukes it can do what it wants, at that point why not let them take Poland to? oh how about those other ex-soviet states. there is a line in the sand period.

Like it or not those territories are no longer part of Russia, so Russia cannot just gobble them up and expect to get off scot-free.

What you consider right or wrong doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things period.

Why would any Baltic state attack the Federation? they will never do such a thing.

As you keep suggesting, they have the entire might of HATO on a hair trigger just waiting to come to their aid... why would they shy away from conflict with Russia?

It is pretty clear the EU wants to pick a fight and are sanction happy too.

I doubt the plan is to start a war but their job is to be very obnoxious... which they are rather good at... who knows what might happen?

You are suggesting an action that is devoid of any degree of intelligence.

The whole purpose behind HATO is to defend Europe from Russian aggression, yet it is western countries that show aggression around the world... please continue to talk about intelligence...

Be bias all you want Garry, attack any NATO member means war with all of NATO.

They claim that, but when has it actually happened in practise... I mean Al Quada attacked the US in 11/9 yet in Syria you are treating them like allies as long as they keep their guns pointed at the Syrians and Russians and Iranians. Israel almost sank a US spy ship and nothing happened then either.

The only time HATO seems to attack is any country with good relations with Russia like Serbia and Syria... and even then they have to get Russia in to get things done...

If a Baltic state was stupid enough to get into a shooting war with Russia I would expect a few idiots from the Ukraine to go to protect democracy and likely a few more idiots from Georgia, and a few from HATO countries.... but I would be interested to see how HATO could get a force into the area that is big enough to make a difference that wont be targeted as it forms up...

If you think russia would win that war you're beyond bias, they would have zero chance.

So lets say a repeat of Georgia 2008... lets say Estonia decides that because it is not going to get money from Russia in compensation for all the terrible years of oppression they had to put up with... they decide to take a 100km strip of land along their border with Russia, so essentially they are moving their border 100km to the east along its entire length... they claim it a being their territory, which of course Russia claims is obviously rubbish. Estonia loudly proclaims they will start taking their territory and that if Russia tries to stop them then they will call on their HATO allies to help defend Estonian territory.

Now take me through how HATO is going to back up Estonia in such a venture... remember in the case of Georgia the US and all of HATO and the EU said Russia was invading what was essentially all Georgian territory so they accepted Georgias claim to South Ossetia and Abkhazia and still do...

Would it be any different with Estonia? Or indeed Japan claiming the Kurile Islands?

Those countries aren't NATO and have nothing to do with the point I was making, bringing up countries outside of NATO to try and argue your point is idiotic Garry and it just a cheap deflection tactic.

Neither Ukraine nor Georgia are in HATO yet the US has made all sorts of promises of support and assistance, and also all sorts of threats to Russia.

@Mike it's also not a bluff if Russia decided to annex the baltics states, whats to say it won't think about going after others. Again be bias all you want and your statements reflect that.

Russia wants to annex the Baltic states like a man with a newly amputated gangrenous arm wants it sewn back on without anaesthetic...

Those festering idiots can enjoy EU freedoms for all it matters to Russia...

Russia may bomb the shit out of them if the tensions with US about the missile launcher in easter europe keep growing and in the meantime "build" a road from Kaliningrad to the mainland which will mean annex the baltic states or a part of it.

They don't need a road to Kaliningrad... shipping will do just fine...

But you are right, it is the eastern european countries and the baltic states and former soviet hanger ons that squeal about the threat Russia poses and demands protection from a non existent threat... I am sure it is US and EU money well spent...

That's your logic "Oh the baltic states are saying bad things about Russia, so the russian can totally bomb them" Why you fing kidding me Lol. I am going to pretend you did not say this.

Absolutely... you need a poorly made and edited video showing the use of chemical weapons, or some highly likely bullshit about a highly deadly chemical agent that never seems to actually kill anyone that is other wise health, but don't present any evidence or information... just say it is highly likely and launch a cruise missile attack against them right?

People here are just insane, I swear. Completely clueless has to how matters like these work, Russia isn't going to bomb the Baltics over US missile batteries or mean words.

We know exactly how it works.... the problem that it only works one direction... you just shit yourself when we suggest Russia do to the west what the west routinely does to Russia and her allies and friends...

WW3 would have started if any of you had a say, I swear.

Dude... anyone put sanctions on the US like the US has put on everyone else and WWIII would have started decades ago...

US and UK sanctions on Japan essentially created the war in the Pacific but lets forget that now as we apply them to two countries with nuclear weapons and conventional weapons that are actually rather impressive...

It's unlikely we would push into Russia, just push them back to their boarders and Russia would suffer a cost for trying to invade if it ever did.

I think it is amusing that you think you could get troops in there to do that without being targeted by Russia... I mean in the Korean war when the US led international contingent got to the North Korean border with China, China then pushed them all the way back to where they are today, and China was not particularly powerful or amazing at the time either... they certainly had numbers...

as I said if you think we would just let Russia annex the Baltics you are delusional so very very delusional. Armchair experts think they know all when all people like you would do is send millions to their deaths, sickening really.

Well the strange thing is that most HATO experts admit that if Russia actually attacked the baltics they could not mobilise enough of a force in time to stop them.. and mobilising a force to push them back out would need to be much much bigger and could be targeted as it formed up as a preemptive self defence type thing...

sure Russia would have the advantage in the open stages and it would gain some ground but once millions of men and equipment are moved in Russia would suffer death on a massive scale not seen since WW2, of course, they would do the same to us. the difference is, Russia's homeland would be easy to target after the first few months.

Months? Is HATO intended to do this using air power like in Kosovo?

Russia poses no threat to the US in that way, their subs would be hunted down and destroyed. Their navy would be stuck near the shorelines and without that cover from surface ships their subs are easy prey.

Start sinking their navy and expect a nuclear response...

And the US has harpoons to sink ships... I think I can guess how that is going to work out... The US could only have a chance of winning by concentrating all its naval power in close to Russia... which means they will defeat the Russian Navy by making run out of missiles before the west runs out of ships, and even now I don't think even all of HATO has enough ships...

NATOvsRussia is not a war that would end well for them, nor could their population sustain millions of men dead over the baltics.

Russia does not want the baltics, and HATO is even less interested in getting into a conflict with Russia than Russia is interested in a fight with HATO but it is HATO that is picking the fights.

But be my guest demand war with NATO and cost millions their lives, I only hope you have the decency to fight in the war you promote nothing is worse to me then an able body men who sends people to die for their beliefs and doesn't have the gal to fight for those beliefs.

LSOS is French...

Btw Putin himself has always said "War with NATO would be suicide"

HATO never seems to be interested in offering Russia any alternatives other than surrender... which makes murder suicide the best option.

Not touching the Baltics is a better choice than seeing their entire nation wiped off the map.

Some times little dogs need a kick... ask Georgia...

It's ignorant of reality to think because Russia has nukes it can do what it wants, at that point why not let them take Poland to? oh how about those other ex-soviet states. there is a line in the sand period.

Don't you get it... Russia doesn't want the Baltic States... it doesn't want Poo land... it doesn't even want the Ukraine.... what it wants is that the Baltic States treat its Russian population with respect, what it wants is for the Ukraine to stop shelling and bombing Ukrainians that want to speak Russian... Ukrainians who want to speak Russian are not Russian... they just don't want to bother learning a different language for no good reason at all.

Like it or not those territories are no longer part of Russia, so Russia cannot just gobble them up and expect to get off scot-free.

Russia has never mentioned any intention of absorbing any of those territories... the Ukraine is not part of HATO and neither is Georgia... if Putin wanted to expand the motherland he could have easily kept moving to Tiblisi... it could have actually entered the Ukraine and taken Kiev and then kept the peace in both countries and just seize power... all opposition could be sent to guantanimo in Cuba... set up an open air prison next to the American one... I bet you will know which one will get all the attention and which will be ignored...

But no... Russia crushed the forces that attacked them in Georgia and then withdrew to the borders, and there were no Russian forces in the Ukraine. In the Crimea they never exceeded the number of troops they were allowed to have there by agreement with the Ukraine and were able to keep the peace while the people decided what they wanted to do and they decided to join the Russian federation... there was no annexation involved.

The Baltic states and Eastern Europe are damaged goods Russia doesn't need them... even if they walked in without firing a shot the first thing they would have to do is spend a few billion dollars fixing the places up... rebuilding industry and repair 30 years of neglect.

Money better spend in Russia on Russian companies and resources...

NATO won't escalate and respond to a tactical nuclear exchange. No matter what you say. Western societies are "pussified" and death is taboo. You really think US or French societies would allow a nuclear attack on cities ? Like seriously ?

More accurately they will show force and be really tough... in Africa or Asia or the Middle East where the country they are bombing can't attack Brussels or London or Paris or Berlin, but Russia can so there will be a lot more restraint despite the rhetoric...

If it was up to me I would clearly state that I woukdn't help them against Russia. They are clearly doing everything to start a war with them because they are racists.

Indeed, they are the little child holding on to his mothers skirt poking his tongue at the big kids from school knowing he is safe as long as his mother is there.

If mum saw what he was doing a good mum would give him a clip around the ear and tell him not to be so rude, because she wont always be around to protect you.... but surprise surprise HATO is a bad mum.

Will shift to a new thread about HATO and its responsibilities to protect all its members... I would add that HATO mantra is defence... other HATO members are not obliged to join wars started by other members... note Turkey refused to assist in the attack on Iraq in 1991 for example.

Isos wrote:And I tell you US or France will never use or start a nuclear war over Baltics state.

You said "US/Nato will push them back" but how ? It would need a huge mobilization and by the time Russia will considere those state as Russian mainland, IF they annex them and there is no sign they will do it any day soon. Then the russian nuclear doctrine is simple: use nuks against a big opponent if he endangers russian territory.

NATO won't escalate and respond to a tactical nuclear exchange. No matter what you say. Western societies are "pussified" and death is taboo. You really think US or French societies would allow a nuclear attack on cities ? Like seriously ?

Btw this has nothing to do with my initial statement which was that I said baltics states and Poland may not attack Russia military but keep attacking them diplomatically everyday and one day they may push little too far which can lead to a brtal answer of Russia. Specially Poland. This country is the most likely to bring a war btw Russia/Nato. In EU it doesn't have its place because it's just a US satelitte and in NATO it brings US missiles at Russian borders and very soon will ask some nuks deployed there and very likely also some cruise missiles.

If it was up to me I would clearly state that I woukdn't help them against Russia. They are clearly doing everything to start a war with them because they are racists.

Any attacks on Poland would lead to a swift response, Germany alone would not tolerate the Russian entertaining the idea they can do what they want with Poland the germans do not want the Russians on their borders again.

Russia is not dumb enough to bomb Poland or the Baltic states over political BS.

You keep bringing up nukes, the only time Russia would consider using them is if we try to move into their homeland and frankly I doubt we would try the goal would to be simply push back and contain at that stage.

Russia will not use nukes over annexed territory, they aren't that insane or bloodthirsty unlike 90 percent of the members on this forum it seems.

I don't know why you keep saying the west is pussified, I could say the same shit about Russians really. You are using less than a percentage of the population you see on videos and crap to judge the entire west?. Now that is also ignorant, sure you will find examples here and there but again I could do the same for the russians.

Congrats you finally said something that is logical, yes we would need a mass mobilization and that would take a few months but it would come and when it did the overstretched Russian army would quickly fall back.

In order to defend and take on NATO, Russia would need a population much much much bigger then it has and would need an industry that it doesn't have. Russia could not win in a conventional war against NATO. It's completely illogical to think they can.

I have been to a baltic state and I rarely saw racism towards Russians from the common folk anyways, of course, you will find racism anywhere you go and I could find super racist people in Russia to, so what's your point every country has racists? yeah they do. If you mean the government then sure I could see that but the Russians have racists in their government also, like the pot calling the kettle black here.

I am not saying the Russians are weak, I respect their fighting spirit and their skill but its just to big of a mountain for them to climb and there is no shame in that.

Ah, what great logic Mike, except you fail to realize if Russia uses nukes on us they will get used on them....dam guess you didn't think of that.

As for the paper tiger comment, well I wouldn't be so sure about that and your bias is showing btw terribly.

Doesn't matter if its connect to the mainland or not Russia doesn't have the forces to sustain a prolonged war against NATO, you can ignore this all you want but they simply do not have the numbers. The front could be right next to Russia it could be at the Baltics. They would lose millions of men trying to keep that ground sure NATO would to, but NATO can afford millions of losses. Russia's population cannot afford that many men dead, it still hasn't recovered from ww2 and it will take decades more for them to even get close.

No the US and Europe would not just ignore Russia taking the Baltics because then that would simply make the Russians cocky that they can go further, this would not be permitted at all. Your logic is pretty much flawed, because if that the case they can do whatever they want since they will threaten the use of warheads.

Russia also will not risk Nuclear death because of the baltics.

Supply lines aren't a big deal this isn't WW2 supply lines of that size are easy to cover.

Russia would get some targets sure but it doesn't have and will never have enough munitions to take out Europe, this is pure fantasy on your part and if it does that it well it will only push Europe harder which is fine. Do you really think Russia could knock out the EU with hundreds of missiles Lawls.

I swear I'd love to know how war works in your head.

I do not overestimate, Its simple as I have said Russia doesn't have the manpower to sustain occupation on such a wide area while maintaining defense on shorelines, fronts etc to fight back against NATO. It simply doesn't have the population for such a conflict and if it wanted to take the baltics whats what it would need to do.

We could also destroy their industry too, do you really think we can't bomb the shit out of their factories?.

Again yes Russia in the opening stages would have an advantage, but as the months go on their advantages would be neutralized.

It would actually be worse for them to just seize the baltics not touch the rest of Europe as that would make mobilization efforts far easier, they would need to size all of Ukraine and Poland to make a good enough front, just taking the baltics is shooting themselves in the foot.