Western propaganda

Few weeks before I subscribe in this forum, i was among several people in the world strongly thinking that no russian hardwares could match with US weaponery. It does not exist an something abble to down F-15, F-16, F-18, F-4E. In the next I will explain why.

Western Propagada: A tool very efficient

If this was an area where western was far ahead Soviet Union, is the propaganda.
During my youth, i was passionned by everything in relation with weapon, I tried to become pilot, however, as I had a glass, I was suppressed to pass tests in order drive an aircraft.
Each weeks I bought several military newspapers magazins. I watched as I could, several tv documentaries about US wars Vietnam, Korea.
The mechanism of western propaganda is, very, very efficient, not stupid, and very clever.
In fact I've never seen or heard words, or sentences like "we are the strongest, we are the best, the others are...". Never i've witnessed of this kind stupidities.
The system lead you to think that there is no things abble to match with US weaponnery. You will think that, they will never force you to think that.

By for example articles like "F-15 is the best aircraft in the world, after... it has the more victories.", far in magazin you will see a mig-23, mig-25 downed. For example during documentaries about Vietnam, we heard..."For the vietcongs...punishment starts...we saw B-52 dropping bombs". In another subject ...."Israelis air force, are among the best of the world".
For Israelis's auxiliary, during the bekaa's battle IDF annihilated 102 aircrafts syrian fighters-we will see after, in another topic, how, it was a pure lie-. Moreover, no use to back to images during the first gulf war, where US bombed, bombed Iraq again and again. After pictures with american soldiers smiling with an iraqi prisonners, sometimes with civils, happy to see the civilization comming to them.
Adding all that images, sounds, you will lead, sometimes by force, to think that the best aircrafts in the world could only be americans. No one can match, moreover, the 90's decade with the soviet union's collapse, and the USA unfortunetly for us became the only superpower in the world.


When doubts cast

- My first doubts was, when I saw the success of Mig 21, Mig 23 in the world.
- When in 2006, a little Hizbollah milice stop israeli invasion, and blowing many of their armor vehicles, and burnt many of their Merkava.
- 2008, my doubt became a true reality, because we were at the top of US power, after that, reality recalled USA. Georgia, after US green light, attacked Russia. Do not tell me this is the jester of Tbillissi that has undergone himself this attack. It was the next step of US great middle east, and normally the next step was US air force, bombed russian forces, and after triggered a new world war. However nothing has passed, US staid muet, and things staid like that.
- 2008 when the krach occured, it showed to the rest of world, how US economy is so weak.

Father of western propaganda.
The efficiency of western propaganda is to fight your doubts, by chieftly seduced you. They know you will be conviced.
The master of western propaganda is not Goebbels but Edward Bernays. Goebbels is a dwarf comparing to Bernays.
For more information you can download his books Propaganda in pdf version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Bernays

Don't forget William Hearst and Douglas McCarthy the masters of anti-Soviet propaganda, The first taking faschist propaganda and spreading to the west while the other trying to portray socialism as demonic(utter stupidity) and starting discrimination against anyone with even minorly left political views.

I too used to watch discovery documentaries about communism and military channel and I always had a feel they were BSing me to believe some preposterous things.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:Don't forget William Hearst and Douglas McCarthy the masters of anti-Soviet propaganda, The first taking faschist propaganda and spreading to the west while the other trying to portray socialism as demonic(utter stupidity) and starting discrimination against anyone with even minorly left political views.

I too used to watch discovery documentaries about communism and military channel and I always had a feel they were BSing me to believe some preposterous things.

Questions Kommissar:
Thx, I ignored D. Mccarthy, W. Hearst.
What would be your reaction when your learned a day, that Israel downed very easily more than 100-we will see next about this western 'israeli hoax- syrian aircrafts ? Furthermore it was said that most of downed aircrafts were Sukhoi, mig 21 and especially Mig 23 -B, and M, don't forget that, in that time Mig 23 was the backbone of many air force defense in the world- ?
Moreover what is your reaction, when most of the time, when you read, and see any pictures, any tv documents relating Vietnam war, they always talk US weaponnery as for example about Phantom ? And about Phantom F4, all images, pictures depict it as an exceptionnal aircraft -that was not-, all images are beautifull technicolor, the rare images about Mig, when they are, you see black&white poor qualities, immediatly after they showed Phantom dropping its bombs during an operation like Rolling Thunder, or Linebacker.
The message underliying that soviet weaponnery is weapon for tacky soldiers, and Soviet Union were very late, and innefective against western modern weapons.
Once you saw other things than their filty lying figures, you realize that the contrary, soviet weapon are redoutable between experts hands

PS: To Kommissar, by William Hearst, did you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Randolph_Hearst ?

War is often called a game, but the stakes are death... very few people would enter an actual game where the stakes were their life where they had to use equipment that they knew was inferior to the other side.

It is not just the west as we know it today... before WWII started most British Empire countries believed Japanese planes were made of rice paper and could not fly in the rain. The Zero was the best fighter anywhere in 1941, its problem was that it didn't improve and change when it came up against different enemies.

The Germans thought the pinnacle of Soviet tank production was the T-32 multi turreted tank and the T-26 light tank.

The point of course is that it doesn't matter how good or how bad your equipment is, it is how it is used... tactics... and how your enemy reacts too.

German Panzer 2-4 tanks were inferior to the T-34 and KV-1 tanks they faced, yet they were still effective because they operated as a team with good communications... they called in air support and artillery to deal with targets their own guns couldn't deal with, or they bypassed the enemy strong points and left those problems for the infantry forces to reduce and destroy.

The west is never going to admit to having inferior material, even when it is obvious, because they can secure local superiority in numbers, and they also have what are called force multipliers and of course good communications to allow them to be far more efficient and effective with their use of force.

Even if Serbia had F-22s they still would not have won over Kosovo... NATO would simply have launched cruise missile attack after cruise missile attack against all the potential airfields it could have operated them from.

GarryB wrote:
The west is never going to admit to having inferior material, even when it is obvious, because they can secure local superiority in numbers, and they also have what are called force multipliers and of course good communications to allow them to be far more efficient and effective with their use of force.

Even if Serbia had F-22s they still would not have won over Kosovo... NATO would simply have launched cruise missile attack after cruise missile attack against all the potential airfields it could have operated them from.

The problem is Iam more than 45 years old, bac + 4 years in university, and I believed their propaganda.
A few months ago, I was with friends talking about Russia, and I said them that Russia, is far to match USA, noone in the world could downed their modern fighters.
I realize how poor of me, I was far from the truth, because of the lack of culture.

Back to Serbia, Iam near sure, Serbia will retrieve Kossovo, if not tommorow, it's after-tommorow, but one day, Serbians will free their historic land.
If some of you, desires to understand the world that we live, and the propaganda's mechanism, I advise you Guy Debord, and his books la société du spectacle, it exists in english version, you can download it directly by Internet. The movie can be seen/or download it.
But take care, it's a marxist-rhetoric, and sometimes it's hard to understand.
He was opposed to the capitalist world, and soviet system. He was one the top universalist intellectuel international. Just as example, for him he considered the chinese soldiers on earth since Tchin era, is great hoax.
In 1994 he suicided himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Debord

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Society_of_the_Spectacle_%28film%29

A few months ago, I was with friends talking about Russia, and I said them that Russia, is far to match USA, noone in the world could downed their modern fighters.

Not that far from the truth actually... no country in the world would choose to take on the US military for fun or for practise.

Of those that actually get the opportunity to do so it is generally up to the US who has the chance and they like to prepare and plan to minimise the chance of loses to a very high degree.

Where the risk is high you will see the US not even turning up with fighter aircraft... Syria, and indeed Libya... so it is not just sensible enemies, but a sensible US that prevents US aircraft from being shot down.

The US these days sends UAVs to do the job they used to send modified bombers to do (ie RB-xx), so the chances are further reduced, and finally tactics... they wont just send in a single fighter to enter enemy air space to duke it out and see who is the best pilot... they will start with jamming and cruise missiles to take down communications and command and control centres and then attack airfields etc so that by the time US aircraft are over enemy airspace the enemy air force and air defence network is already broken so it is never a "fair" fight.

Of course in war there is no such thing as fair... a good example would be the superior coordination of German troops and artillery and air power during WWII... in the attack you can concentrate your forces in one small area and create local superiority which allows you to break the line... the Soviets used tactics to over come this... notably in Stalingrad where the close proximity of hand to hand combat was a great equaliser, where air power was no longer so effective...

Any enemy can use such tactics to negate an advantage their opponent has... try to fight on Americas terms and they will thrash you... make them play on your terms and you have a chance.

Why do you hate our freedom?

But really, I remember when I was maybe 10 years old I saw the Su-27 in a magazine. My first though was how could a backward civilization produce such a lethal yet elegant aircraft, and why have I never seen this in a TV military documentary? It made me very curious as to what else the "bad guys" might have that I wasn't aware of.

Thank you Mikhail Simonov. When I run into him in the afterlife I'll have to buy him a drink

The west likes to pretend it is open minded and progressive, but at the end of the day it is a closed shop that is not open to different cultures and new ideas.

Most of the criticisms the west likes to use against its enemies can be fairly applied to the west itself... often with more validity... The west has actually been responsible for undermining democracy, and outright invasion over the last century or so than Russia could ever be accused of... which is not to say that Russia is some innocent victim.

American fast food is more likely to kill the world than "Russian expansionism" ever will.

In fact the greatest danger to life as we now know it would be if China and India adopt American consumerism and waste and start burning up resources the way the US has for the last half century or so... the world could barely support 300 million people doing that... imagine when almost 3 billion try.

Of course my main hope is that technology will save us, but perhaps it will be a false hope. The oil companies suppressed alternative energy sources because they weren't making money from alternative energy, and now that they have all rebranded themselves as "energy" companies and pretend to be working on alternative fuels I really think nothing has changed.

The plans to go to Mars and the Moon will help develop technologies to recycle and reuse because we are going from an environment where water and food and heat and light are abundant to places where they are not. The technologies required to clean up polluted material or waste material and make it reusable will likely end up being valuable at some time in the future.

I'm sick of any propaganda. Please, don't call it western propaganda. Call it real name. In Uk press Us soldiers are depicted as cowboys, and Uk soldiers as overall better material. Not to mention that they bash american gun ownership like they don't have their own problems to deal with. Btw, Israel is always a bad guy in Lithuanian press. Same in UK papers.

Regular wrote: Israel is always a bad guy in Lithuanian press. Same in UK papers.

But I assume in Baltic media Chechen and Albanian religious extremists are seen as some kind of heroic freedom fighter martyrs because they commited genocide on Russians and Russian allies ?

BTW I've always wondered which Baltic governments are more russophobic. I've heard that Lithuanians are the least and Estonians are the most. Those clowns really mean business with their government supported SS worship events in Tartu. I wonder after how much more time will they put up statues of Hitler and pals over obliterated memorials of fallen soviet soldiers.

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

BTW I've always wondered which Baltic governments are more russophobic. I've heard that Lithuanians are the least and Estonians are the most. Those clowns really mean business with their government supported SS worship events in Tartu. I wonder after how much more time will they put up statues of Hitler and pals over obliterated memorials of fallen soviet soldiers.

I have nothing against british, nothing against american people, they are all victim as us, but here in west, propaganda this is where I swam, since the begining of my life.
When I mean states, I mean true countries, with history, with economy, streams input/output from normal situation. Baltic states are not countries, just a simple provinces that were removed from Russia, when Russia was weak. As soon as possible, with the US's decline situation, these provinces will be back to Russia. Baltic countries are just only tools in US hands in order to blow, attack, destabilize Russia. The ultimate goal of this global'oligarchy, is established in Russia, as fly changed the donkey. USA is ill, Econmy is ruined, now for this cruel barbaric oligarchy; it is time to leave, and to search a new area, Russia is the better area for them.
After their goals done successfully, believe me, Baltic countries, as Poland, as Slovak, Check, etc...will be dropped, as you throw a dirty sockets in garbage.
If I was a baltic's politician -as a fanatic guy Lansbergis for example-, I started to see what's happenned recently during the second world war, when Roosevelt, Morgenthau, Marshall sacrified the all east of Europa-either you name Sikorsky or not, Churchill or not-, british empire, and frencheese empire.
They have no senses, just calculus. They used Walesa as in football party when you shoot the ball, when the ball is useless, it was thrown in garbage. Look what'is happenning in Poland.
US global oligarchy is more satanic, is far more diabolic than you can never imagine. What is the weight of baltic countries ? Null or near. This card will be sacrified soon or later.

Just a last word concerning baltic countries, without american help -that is going to become less and less the case- these countries will collapse. As Baltic countries have no output to offer, the only thing that they can do for their masters, is to leave US deploying a so called shield, or new Pershing II.

In this new chessboard Israel is going to be dropped too, those who will pay, are not the leaders and richs, no, as always the average people who will pay the hard price. Let's leave the baltic politicians to dream into their idealistic nonsens utopias. How will be hard the awakening.
It took me decades to understand what is the oligarchy, and what are their purposes, and untill now I still discover new things that I ignored.

I agree with most of what you say but Baltic cultures are quite different from the Russian culture. I would say a extensions of Russia are Ukraine and the glorious socialist Byelorussia . BTW the only empirialist action the USSR ever did in its history was the Baltic annexation and that is a bit debatable since these regions were previously territories of the russian empire and the main soviet goal between 1922 and 1941 was to take back the lost territories of the former empire. However if the Georgian paranoid leader didn't take them they would've surely captured. Were they all faschist quasi-dictatorships? Yes(Pats, Smetona, that Latvian dude that I forgot).But did Addie Shitler view them as a fellow Aryan race not worthy of total enslavement and subsequent extermination? No. It would've been interesting if that would've happened. Mostl likely Leningrad being so close to the border would've been occupied thus ensuring defeat of the USSR and thus eastern Europe losing all hope of being saved from being slaves of Nordic families but if the USSR by miracle actually won by miracle I'm 100% sure that the Baltics(apart from Estonia) would have a warm opinion of Russians and would view them as distant brothers with common Slavic roots.

Russia doesn't need to retake the Baltic countries by force. instead when the situation in the EU becomes extra shi**y maybe they would leave it gradually get into a Russian alliance(probably by then the almost Scandinavian level of russophobia will be worn out).

nemrod wrote:

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

BTW I've always wondered which Baltic governments are more russophobic. I've heard that Lithuanians are the least and Estonians are the most. Those clowns really mean business with their government supported SS worship events in Tartu. I wonder after how much more time will they put up statues of Hitler and pals over obliterated memorials of fallen soviet soldiers.

Let's leave the baltic politicians to dream into their idealistic nonsens utopias. How will be hard the awakening.
It took me decades to understand what is the oligarchy, and what are their purposes, and untill now I still discover new things that I ignored.

the Baltic politicians don't believe in utopias(except if you consider their wishes total Russian extermination) they, like almost every east European politician(including the s**theads ruling Bulgaria) is to make the EU give them more "development" money so they could steal it in order to fill their own pockets.

No offence to members from baltic states but they seem to me to be rats jumping ships when it suits them... a bit like the west.

Churchill always said he hated communism yet was prepared to join an alliance with them when it suited his purposes.

It was actually communism that released the baltic states and gave them independence in the 1917 commie revolution. They were only returned to the fold by that Georgian Stalin because he knew war was coming and he wanted control of all the neighbours he could manage because he knew war with Germany was coming.

So much hate and false accusations. But I'm a calm man, it's not like I don't hear nonsense from other side - to most westerns we are russians or polish. Again - Lithuania never had SS because no one wanted to join. Thats why we were punished by Nazi occupants. No gov supported SS parades in Lithuania.
You know that it is really insulting to read that Lithuania is not a country. Guess who attacked Muscovites in good old days. Read some history. You are all welcome to visit, our number 1 turists are Russian anyway (guess they don't hate it so much as You do)
And no after Beslan Chechens are evil in our media. We even arrested their supporter. It's not London where they roam free. We don't support Georgia as our new government seen there is nothing to gain there.

And here is my view - Quality of life in Lithuania is better then in Russia. Not saying that is good too, as in Uk I earn 8 times more for same job as in Lithuania and work less hours.
My mother travels to Russia once in 6 months. She stayed in science town called Pushino two weeks ago. Is there a word for BESPRIDEL in English? She is very pro-russian and she organises events with youth from ex soviet block that interested in BioChem goes to European tech. and science campuses. Russian science is clining on good intentions and enthusiasm as money is very small and there are old people who sacrifice themselves to teach youth as there is no middle aged people. Prices in Russia are same and sometimes biger than in Lithuania. Wages are smaller, there is more corruption. Not saying we are way better but definety there was no awe when I was in Moscow. Very clean city I must say, but not best place to live because of nonsense prices. And so much can be done to attract more investment.

How an old right winger as Landsbergis is relevant? He did his job when needed while most chickened out. Don't like his paranoid rhetoric and his name became a curseword for some. If cat shits in his slipper he blames KGB. Our gov today is different, less talking, less working. As for American help please tell me what do we get? OUR "TANKS" ARE M113, almost no airforce and apart from few jets there is NO NATO MILITARY stationed. Our economy is service based as European union wasn't happy that we wanted to be economicly independent so they destroyed our agriculture and now we have european shopping centers every where and no major factories where we could make our products even for internal consumption not to talk about export. Not to mention EU funds that always reach wrong causes and wrong people. Not to mention brain drain. Still we are way better than Greece or Cyprus. Life is stable. We eastern europeans don't panic and carry even when it's bad. Not like our southern members that we have nothing common with :-D

Sorry guys, but it's funny to read it, same like a blind man telling how ugly is the women he met. Our and Russian propaganda does splendid job in distorting real image too. I have loads russian friends who can show me Russia better than any guide and tell me more than any news agency

I never mentioned SS parades in Lithuania. I said about the Estonian ones .

BTW be proud you have M113s. They are one of the best APCs ever built

I have another question. Before 8.8.08 did the Lithuanian media mention anything about the donation of some Lithuanian weapons to Georgia? Did Suckasswilly even pay for them ?Did it significantly weaken Lithuanian military power?

KomissarBojanchev wrote:
BTW be proud you have M113s. They are one of the best APCs ever built

Hmm, another of Sparky's disciples eh

KomissarBojanchev wrote:I never mentioned SS parades in Lithuania. I said about the Estonian ones .

BTW be proud you have M113s. They are one of the best APCs ever built

I have another question. Before 8.8.08 did the Lithuanian media mention anything about the donation of some Lithuanian weapons to Georgia? Did Suckasswilly even pay for them ?Did it significantly weaken Lithuanian military power?

No, i've never knew about it, never heard these donations before war, but I don't know why they need more AK-47 for? They had more than us before war. Plus they have heavy equipment, hell we even few of us receive AT training because even training shots cost. You know, it didn't weaken our army but it drained our reserves. Reserves are kept for reason, not to give away to third party. They promised us that we could establish business in his country and etc, but don't know if we lost interest in it or he didn't keep his word. Thanks God we have different Government that doesn't get in these ventures and only questionable purchase is. And back in 2008 I was serving and we all thought it was full scale operation by Russians. Didn't have internet access for like 2 weeks so basically imagined Georgian armed completely decimated by airstrikes and tochka attacks. I found out that they managed to get out(run away)relatively clean.

Estonian matter - Don't know why some of them still respect those who served in SS as it just undermines their look as modern country. Invite some germans there too, make it more awkward than it is now. Estonia is a strange country, they don't look at us as our brothers and they think they are Northern, they pretend they are smaller Finland. I know they are doing better economically than us, their army is better funded and life there is definitely better than ours,they don't need to run away from their country to find work abroad. They seem to don't how to act properly when it comes to relationships with Russians in their country. They want to assimilate them but only wides gap between them.

Wasn't very impressed with M113 when i was serving maybe because of it looked like a matchstick box. I can't say we need something better or never but it wouldn't hurt. We still have old BTR-60 used by some of our services.
check this if interested. AK-47, Btr, people riding on top of it, Mi-8 what not to like They are not special forces, more or less something like Omon.
http://tv.delfi.lt/video/8CrIGuZq/

KomissarBojanchev wrote:

I have another question. Before 8.8.08 did the Lithuanian media mention anything about the donation of some Lithuanian weapons to Georgia? Did Suckasswilly even pay for them ?Did it significantly weaken Lithuanian military power?

I did not know that, but from vicous baltic politicians countries nothing astonished me.
The only purpose of their so-called independance is to provoke Russia. But what can they do ? Their independance is bought by Washington and consequently are tightly linked to US neocons. I heard that Lituania, Estonia, Lettonia, beside Poland, and Cech pushed for Georgia's integration into Nato.
Fortunetly in that time, Germany vetoed, and understood very quickly the danger.

The things were simple, if they waged a war against Russia, Germany won't participate, after that France, Belgium, Netherland, and many western countries followed Germany. They did not want war with Russia.
Fortunetly the 2008 crisis ended this stalemate.

nemrod wrote:...That ends the Syrian Air Force in less than an hour

Not hard to believe knowing the state that it is now.

To summarize, Iam not military, I don't know exactly the state of Syrian air defense, and their aircrafts, however what Iam sure, in order to counteract -if Russia and China are OK, and this is far to be the case- Syrian air defense, it will take far more than an hour, if not several weeks, if Russia and China help Syria, it will take years, and years, as Iran will undoubtly help Syria, and behind Iran, there is Russia, and China.

According to reports from Syria, IAF already attacked targets belonging to Syrian regime.. 9 times...
It looks that Israel is being used as proxy to end this war. No doubt in that.
Despite S-300 from Russia, Syrian AD and AF couldn't stop Israel raids from happening.

Not hard to believe knowing the state that it is now.

I doubt Nato could end a meeting in an hour let alone defeat even the lowliest air force.

Remember the week they promised to defeat the Serbs in regarding Kosovo... more like 2 months and they had to trick the Russians into convincing them to lay down their arms with a false promise of being a part of the solution.

BTW Have moved this thread here as I has not as much to do with US and NATO militaries as it does international politics.

Russia 155th in 2013 Global Peace Index

MOSCOW, June 12 (RIA Novosti) – Russia slid two places to 155th slot among 162 countries in the 2013 Global Peace Index, an annual report by a Sydney-based non-profit research group published Tuesday.
Russia’s downgrade was due to simmering violence in the North Caucasus and the country’s growing role as a global arms supplier, the Institute for Economics and Peace said in its report.
Russia ranked the worst of all post-Soviet countries. Globally, the only countries with a worse rating were the Democratic Republic of Congo, Pakistan, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, Somalia and Afghanistan.
The rating was topped by Iceland, Denmark and New Zealand. The United Kingdom ranked 44th, the United States 99th, China 101st and India 141st.
The world has become 5 percent less peaceful since 2008 due to a rising number of homicides, increased military spending and political instability, the report said.
Violence cost the world almost $9.5 trillion in 2012, the report said.
The Global Peace Index is compiled since 2007 and is based on data from the Economist Intelligence Unit. Russia ranked 118 of 121 countries in the 2007 rating.

Why did I post this rubbish?


This is a critical result actually!


This is very important and needs to be published widely.

The title is rubbish, this has nothing to do with peace, this is a morality index showing the countries that actually follow what the US preaches... the top countries are the ones that do as they are told and don't get in the way of western prosperity, but also respect human rights and all the crap the US talks about but never actually does itself.

Russia rates low because it does not support the pro western agenda... rating it low because there are problems in the Caucsas and it exports weapons is funny because the US exports rather more weapons by a large margin and regularly invades countries without UN approval... not to mention its little Gulag in Guantanimo with non people held without legal procedure. Its war on drugs seems to be more about propping up friendly dictatorships in Central and South America who operate death squads and are the opposite of western political correctness than anything to do with dealing with drug production... which is largely ignored in Afghanistan.

The thing that makes this pro western index so important and amusing is how badly the US and UK are actually doing measured by their own standards.

They might invade a country because its leader is a dictator but they are happy to install dictators sympathetic to them when it suits them which is one of the reasons for their poor standing in their own index...

Hahahahaha....

source: http://en.rian.ru/world/20130612/181629606/Russia-155th-in-2013-Global-Peace-Index.html

My comments above are awaiting moderation but should soon appear...

Peace only made by Us bombs? NATO gets dragged in conflicts thanks to US.
Funny thing is that while I was in Russia it looked peaceful to me.
My friend has business there, restaurant in Moscow. No racial attacks, nothing. Just nostalgic people who like pribaltika food, only thing he is afraid is bureaucracy. Not saying that Russia is safest place in the world, but 155 place... Ridiculous...