Sukhoi/HAL FGFA: News

Russia, India to jointly develop 5th-generation fighter
RIA Novosti

14:04 15/10/2009 MOSCOW, October 15 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India are set to jointly develop helicopters, infantry fighting vehicles and a fifth-generation fighter, a Russian Defense Ministry spokesman said on Thursday.

Following a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military cooperation, Indian Defense Minister A. K. Antony said the two countries will sign a military cooperation agreement for 2011-2020 during the Indian prime minister's visit to Moscow in December.

The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

The participants in the meeting also expressed their interest in modernizing MiG-27 Flogger ground support aircraft, Su-30MKI fighter jets, T-72M1 and T-90S tanks and BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles currently in service with the Indian Armed Forces.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/10/mil-091015-rianovosti04.htm

India set to buy around 300 5th generation fighters from Russia

RIA Novosti

15:06 07/10/2010

NEW DELHI, October 7 (RIA Novosti) - India is planning to buy up to 300 co-produced fifth-generation fighters and 45 utility transports from Russia, the Indian defense minister said on Thursday.

"Over the next decade, Russian-Indian military cooperation will focus on two projects: a utility transport and a fifth-generation fighter," said Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who is on a two-day visit to India.

The jointly-produced fifth generation fighter will not be a copy of the existing Sukhoi T-50 prototype ordered for the Russian Air Force, but will be a separate creation, a high-profile source in the Russian delegation in New Delhi said.

The countries are planning to unveil a one-seater and a two-seater version of the fighter by 2015-2016.

The costs are planned to be shared by the two states fifty-fifty.

The Times of India earlier said India may invest over $25 billion on buying fifth-generation fighters for its Air Force.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/india/2010/india-101007-rianovosti01.htm

This can perhaps increase the frequency of joint air exercises between the two countries. It is really puzzling that despite vastly sharing common equipment in terms of aircraft make, technology etc both Russia and India have never held joint air wargames. The transport aircraft (MRTA) has a great potential in civilian industry as well since aviation is set to boom in the coming years.
According to HAL chairman, there's a possibility of modifying the transporter into a 100-seater passenger airliner which would not only circulate the money better within both countries but also offer a fine alternate to those smaller airlines tied down to Boeing-Airbus-Embraer-Bombardier firms.

This is good for India because they can make their own choices with regard to design to suit their own needs. Of course the challenge is that they need to get their own needs right.

For Russia this means that they will have a 5th gen Stealth fighter that they can potentially export to friendly nations much like they did with the Su-30MKI. I don't think they will sell an Su-30MKK to China this time around however unless it is a seriously dumbed down model. If India chooses to put a lot of western technology in their new fighter of course the Russians can develop an all Russian version like the Su-30MKK that can be exported without the ties of getting approval or in the case of Israeli equipment that a customer might object to.

Tshering22 wrote:This can perhaps increase the frequency of joint air exercises between the two countries. It is really puzzling that despite vastly sharing common equipment in terms of aircraft make, technology etc both Russia and India have never held joint air wargames.

It is pretty disappointing that we don't.

^^^ Russian Air Force chief said a little while ago that joint airforce exercises will be held in 2011 or 2012. It was reported by RIA Novosti.

From what i have read , India's Stealth Fighter FGFA will be based on t-50
after looking at all the videos i have one concern , how much or how many weapons it can carry , cuz i dont see a lot of space for 10-12 missiles ,
plz someone tell me about it ,

i am from india and i love Russia

Internally there is no "Stealth" fighter that can carry that many missiles, so no worries .

When designing something you have to make compromises.

For instance if you want to make a medium range surface to air missile and it must have a 70kg HE warhead then there is no much chance of making a small light missile.

A heavy warhead means more fuel and more warhead and fuel means bigger missile.

The extra fuel weight and enlarged size of the missile increases drag and actually needs extra fuel to get it moving at the speed required to the distance required.

It is a vicious circle.

In terms of a stealth fighter, if you want it to be supersonic then is needs a specific slim shape, it also needs specific shaping features for the purposes of radar deflection and absorption.

Except when the missiles are very very small, putting 12 missiles inside it then becomes very very difficult.

The irony is that modern stealth fighters like the F-22 really don't need to be highly agile and manoeuvrable, and actually carrying more ammo would be of huge benefit. It is like giving a Sniper a SMG with 200 rounds and a sniper rifle with 6 bullets.

Perhaps the best solution is actually a mix of a stealth fighter optimised for dogfighting like the T-50/PAK FA, and a large carrier stealth aircraft that is the size of a B-2 and can take advantage of its large size to make detection with high frequency radars difficult and fill it full of dozens of AAMs.

The stealth bombers (PAK DA) could orbit the battlefield with a couple of NEBO-M radars operating nearby picking out ALL the stealth aircraft in the area and have a couple of PAK FA fighters escorting them... on "away missions" perhaps one PAK DA could be unarmed and equipped with a stealthy inflight refuelling boom to refuel the PAK FAs and keep them in the air longer...

The PAK DAs could be packed with IIR seeker equipped models of the RVV-BD and of course the long range scramjet powered R-77s.

thanks for ur answers , but i am still wondering how much PAk-fa can carry , i had read some where it can only carry 4 short range missile or 2 long range missiles ,if that is the case then i think it is sad . if a 5thgen aircraft is going to be stealthy ,can fly at supersonic speeds without using after burners ,
and uses modern radars , then the possibilty of a dog fight is very less . cuz u may never see ur enemy face to face ,just lock on the radar and shoot ....
but if u have less missiles then u will need more sorties or u will need hugh numbers of aircraft to take out the ground targets as well as the air .
cuz if u have a 5th gen fighter u will want to send it first to clear the ground defenses ..

although the J-20 is no where near pakfa or F22 but it has a hugh capacity to carry more weapons and more fuel ,thus making it a long range fighter , most people say J-20 will not be good in a dog fight and i agree , but i dont think they designed it for a dog fight lol

and also can any1 shed some light on 5th gen fighter that india is making on its own ?

I think the J-20 design is more of a strike aircraft than a stealth fighter.

Of course it uses Su-27 engines so I can't see how it could be both larger and supercruise.

The size of the main weapon bays on the PAK FA should hold two large AAMs side by side, so four RVV-BDs, and it has been suggested (by me) that with the folding rear grid fins and slim strakes that the R-77 type missiles should be able to be carried 3 or 4 abrest, so 6-8 missiles in the two main bays.

They are developing a new range of AAMs including short, medium, and long, and ultra long range missiles, which will be designed for internal carriage to presumably allow more to be carried. (ie 8 in the two internal bays).

The PAK FA will likely operate with the Su-35, or in the case of India the Su-30MKI, so lack of AAMs shouldn't actually be too much of a problem.
The idea that a stealth fighter can just saunter into an enemies airspace and start taking it apart with impunity is a little thin.

The threat of enemy airpower would require an air to air load, but the requirement to deal with communication hubs and major SAM sites and HQs etc etc would mean air to ground weapons... if you are going to try to take on ground targets with their air force intact then you might get a surprise. If you try to go after their air force with their AD network intact you might get even more of a surprise.

Taking down an enemy country will require a mix of stealthy and non stealthy aircraft to deal with threats and targets as they present themselves.

Using the NATO model start hitting fixed infrastructure targets with cruise missiles. Protect those cruise missiles with stealth fighters shooting down enemy aircraft that get off the ground. Cruise missiles can deal with targets that stay in their hangars and all the air defence equipment you have found and plotted on your maps. Once the integrated air defence system is degraded then non stealthy aircraft can be sent in to hit mobile threats as they spot them like mobile radars and SAM systems. Once the enemies air power is neutralised and their major SAMs defeated then you can send in the strategic bombers with their big heavy bunker buster bombs to take out buried bunkers and HQs and you can then start dealing with enemy ground forces like armour etc.

In other words the Stealth fighters zip around at high altitude super cruising looking for enemy aircraft that attempt to deal with the cruise missiles.

Their high speed means entering the battlespace and exiting when they need more missiles relatively quickly and following the cruise missile paths and mapping out any threats or targets that can later be uploaded to the network.

Dedicated SEAD missions can be directed at the known large SAM sites in the country... large SAMs are expensive and most of the older generation were not particularly mobile so their locations will be known and if the cruise missiles don't effectively deal with them then an Su-34 with Kh-58s or even Kh-59Ms will.

Once the communications hubs and major SAMs are dealt with then high flying stealth fighters can be joined by Su-35s and the stealth fighters can carry external armament too.

thanks for a in detail reply ,

ricky123 wrote:thanks for ur answers , but i am still wondering how much PAk-fa can carry , i had read some where it can only carry 4 short range missile or 2 long range missiles ,if that is the case then i think it is sad .

Well whoever said that is blatantly wrong. The two side bays alone carry 2 short range missiles, and the middle bays at the very least can carry 4 large AAMs (of say RVV-BV size), and there is certainly size to carry 6 R-77 sized missiles.

The aircraft can carry 4 Kh-58UKShK in the main bays, so internal space is not lacking. This already planned mutlirole capability will be a big advantage to the service entry of the aircraft- F-22 for example still is rather limited in stores, the TYphoon took forever to turn into a multirole fighter, etc.

thanks gary and TR1
i have a question though

gary said cruise missles are fired first to take out the sam sites , but lets say if usa is going to war with iran

now usa doesnt have a site to launch cruise missle on iran or maybe yes if they do it from afghanistan ,but lets say they dont do it from there

then will they be able to launch missiles from aircraft carrier ? and will it be enough . from what i have read iran has upgraded versions of sams from russia
which can even detect stealth ...

if u were usa commander and trying to launch a attack on iran ,what would be ur best way to do it ... and usa dint use the F22 in war yet , do u think that will come in handy against iran ?

Cruise missiles?

The US navy can launch plenty from both submarines and Ticonderoga/Burke ships, and the USAF can use B-52s to launch AGM-86s...I guess the more advanced AGM-129 is retired now, but used to be an option recently.

EDIT: Wait, AGM-129 is still in inventory.

so dont u think iran will have some kind of protection for this ???

An operational air force can work against a cruise missile attack, a modern aircraft with look down shoot down radar can detect and track low flying cruise missiles and engage them with missiles.
Ground forces can also engage such threats but it is generally more difficult for them because of ground features blocking radar signals.

If they can knock out some of the major SAM sites and main radars then Iran becomes much more vulnerable to attack.

Of course if it did attack Iran, the first reaction from Iran would likely be to immediately start supplying taleban forces in Afghanistan and the Shia majority in Iraq with the sort of weapons they need to kick the western forces out of the region. Weapons like ATGMs and MANPADS would make things impossible for the western forces and they would have to leave.

Code:

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/09/11/russian_fifth-generation_fighter_jet_17727.html

i dont understand anything in this pic can any1 explain the diff shown at the bottom of the pic

why F22 which has smaller wings then t-50 can carry more payload ?

Who said F-22 can carry more payload?
Can the F-22 carry 4 Kh-58 sized missiles inside? Nope.

That info-graphic is nonsense anyways. Many inaccuracies - PAK-FA won't be going that fast for one.

It is unlikely they will produce enough to replace the Mig-29 and Su-27 in Russian service on a one for one basis.

I rather suspect that by 2025... assuming no major problems that they will have about 250 in total in service.

Also there are 4 confirmed prototypes built, not 3 so this is not new either.

Look at combat range difference between F-22 and PAK-FA. Its huge.

We haven't signed the final R&D deal yet with Russia. So looks like we won't get the first FGFA protype this year. Hope next government clears all these important defence projects.

Sukhoi to sign another contract with India on fifth generation multi-role fighter

MOSCOW, August 02. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer plans to sign another contract with India in the framework of the joint project for the construction of a fifth generation multipurpose combat jet, Alexander Klementyev, a Sukhoi deputy director general told Itar-Tass on Friday.

“We hope the contract [for experimental design works] will be signed soon,” he said.

The intergovernmental agreement on this project was signed back in 2007. Three years after, the sides inked a general contract on joint design and production and then the first engineering development contract. Works under this agreement were completed in 2013. “Since then, we have been working on the second contract for experimental design works,” Klementyev said, adding that this was a unique project aiming at long-term cooperation.

“We have never had such a format of cooperation before,” he said. “There used to be licensed production in China and in India, but now it will be joint designing and production of a new combat aircraft.”

The Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF) is a fifth-generation fighter being developed by India and Russia. An agreement on the project was signed in Moscow on October 18, 2007. The future aircraft will have a number of differences from its Russian prototype - the PAK FA fifth generation fighter - to adjust it to the requirements of the Indian Air Force.

Russia and India continue negotiations on fifth-generation fighter development

George1 wrote:Sukhoi to sign another contract with India on fifth generation multi-role fighter

MOSCOW, August 02. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer plans to sign another contract with India in the framework of the joint project for the construction of a fifth generation multipurpose combat jet, Alexander Klementyev, a Sukhoi deputy director general told Itar-Tass on Friday.

“We hope the contract [for experimental design works] will be signed soon,” he said.

The intergovernmental agreement on this project was signed back in 2007. Three years after, the sides inked a general contract on joint design and production and then the first engineering development contract. Works under this agreement were completed in 2013. “Since then, we have been working on the second contract for experimental design works,” Klementyev said, adding that this was a unique project aiming at long-term cooperation.

“We have never had such a format of cooperation before,” he said. “There used to be licensed production in China and in India, but now it will be joint designing and production of a new combat aircraft.”

The Sukhoi/HAL Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) or Perspective Multi-role Fighter (PMF) is a fifth-generation fighter being developed by India and Russia. An agreement on the project was signed in Moscow on October 18, 2007. The future aircraft will have a number of differences from its Russian prototype - the PAK FA fifth generation fighter - to adjust it to the requirements of the Indian Air Force.

I am disappointed that Modi and Putin could not resolve the FGFA issue.