Exports of highly advanced technology weapons

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Turks could easily hand over data and specs that would severely compromise the aircraft and their stealth tech. They are ways to get more than enough from one sample, sure you can't get EVERY single thing but you can get close to 90 percent of the details

What "specs" will they hand over that it would compromise the aircraft?

What do you mean by compromise to start with?

You talk about things you do not understand on the basis of a meme, that everything military is high-tech and very very secret.

nero wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Turks could easily hand over data and specs that would severely compromise the aircraft and their stealth tech. They are ways to get more than enough from one sample, sure you can't get EVERY single thing but you can get close to 90 percent of the details

What "specs" will they hand over that it would compromise the aircraft?

What do you mean by compromise to start with?

You talk about things you do not understand on the basis of a meme, that everything military is high-tech and very very secret.

Not everything is but somethings are.

You should know what compromises means, it means in this case details you would not want someone to know are learned.

You assume because Russia says "Eh there is no way they can do that" I wouldn't take their word on that, long have you have the correct data you can easily figure out classified things about the design.

Not to mention Nato friendly guys would hand over mechanical details.

How to deal with it, how to best detect it, everything.

Again think what you wish, just saying selling your stealth fighter to a NATO ally is absurd and foolhardy.

@Garry

Selling anything to China is a mistake unless it's two gens behind they will just reverse engineer it sure it may not be has good as the original but it will be cheaper and MUCH cheaper.

I have made my opinions on selling up to date tech to China is a mistake from day 1.

Again think what you wish, just saying selling your stealth fighter to a NATO ally is absurd and foolhardy.

If they make an export version of su-57 for a nato country, it will be made in different materials, with different RAM coating and paint, totally different radar with half of the sources codes erased and lots of equipment swiched for western ones.

You think you are smarter than Sukhoi engineers ? Like they don't know what can be done if they give sensitive tech to a nato country ?

Selling anything to China is a mistake unless it's two gens behind they will just reverse engineer it sure it may not be has good as the original but it will be cheaper and MUCH cheaper.

And who is buying them ? Even chinese army still wants russian stuff rather than the shit Norinco and other produce. Even arabs are disapointed with their shit while they have like no clue what is modern military technology and strategy.

They "copied" S-300 but still buy S-400. They will "copy" S-400 but still beg for S-500 in 5 years when US will bring some IRBM near their shores.

Modern stuff are not like the ones from 39-45. You can't just take the dimensions, see what material is used and copy it. You need a huge industry behind any single thing in the S-400. You also need the sofwares and the source codes which Russia will never give to anyone. You can't guess what the computers are doing and a big part of why S-400 is so good is the computing.

Chinese reverse engineered will be MUCH cheaper but also much more bad. That was proven by anything china copied from small arms to jets. Their military industry suck and everyone knows that.

GarryB wrote:... the Russians are upgrading their Su-57s with new equipment all the time...

Won't it make more sense for Russia to derive a light stealth fighter jet with small internal bays from the MiG-21? Mig-21 already has a small radar cross section.

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:... the Russians are upgrading their Su-57s with new equipment all the time...

Won't it make more sense for Russia to derive a light stealth fighter jet with small internal bays from the MiG-21? Mig-21 already has a small radar cross section.

And where do you put the fuel ?

Small fighter with weapons bay are a waste of time. F-16 and mig-29 were already very short legs and obliged development of conformal fuel tanks and SMT upgrade.

With a lighter jet with weapons bay it would be already worse.

Just take a look at the F-35.

You should know what compromises means, it means in this case details you would not want someone to know are learned.

You could apply that reasoning to Turkey not wanting the US to know how their brand new air defence SAMs work too...

You assume because Russia says "Eh there is no way they can do that" I wouldn't take their word on that, long have you have the correct data you can easily figure out classified things about the design.

Public information is ball park stuff, but different customers will be offered different packages depending on their demands and of course how much they are prepared to pay.

The Turks might get all the detailed information they want to share with the US from the operations manuals they are given by the Russians to use the systems, or they might even invite US specialists to come and climb all over the systems, but do you really think its secrets will lead to serious counters being developed any time soon? And even if it did are the Russian systems the same as the Turkish ones?

There is bluff and counter bluff at play here...

And who is to say the CIA hasn't already dropped a huge wad of cash to some S-400 trained soldier in the Far east to deliver all that information and more already?

Is that really a good reason to turn down a 5 billion dollar contract with all the effects it is having on the relationships between NATO partners and leading to potential future cooperation and sales...

Get over yourself... it is large cash injections like this that fund development and replacement systems... the profit margin in these export sales are enormous which means production capacity can be expanded and properly used reducing the price and increasing deployment of the Russian systems too.

Selling anything to China is a mistake unless it's two gens behind they will just reverse engineer it sure it may not be has good as the original but it will be cheaper and MUCH cheaper.

And no one else does that of course... the value of the ruble means if it is cheaper then they have half arsed the job regarding materials... Russia has already learned when German marine engines are not available because of sanctions that the Chinese offer a good price, but in terms of reliability they lack in terms of metalurgy... whether they didn't know or it is just a consequence of cost saving in areas that needed better quality harder wearing materials is not really important... the fact is that cheaper often means not good enough...

I have made my opinions on selling up to date tech to China is a mistake from day 1.

One could argue the same issues apply to selling high tech stuff to Russia, but by hook or by crook they are likely going to buy the technology from somewhere, and once they have it they can build upon it with their own talent and can often lead to directions that are ahead of those they bought the technology from.

Thales have a good relationship with Russia because Russia is a modern country with educated workers able to produce high quality products for much less than EU member states can manage... Russian produced Thales products are sold around the world for a much bigger profit than domestically produced products...

The stuff made in Russia is in brand new factories with new equipment... it makes it harder for existing factories in the west to compete...

You think you are smarter than Sukhoi engineers ? Like they don't know what can be done if they give sensitive tech to a nato country ?

The Americans created a programme to buy supersonic anti ship missiles... they wrote the specs around the Granit anti ship missile because that is what they wanted to test their systems against... US companies came up with all sorts of designs, but the best system for this 5 million dollar contract was the Kh-31 from Russia, which was accepted and turned in to the MA-31 target missile... they offered up a very early model with rather weak performance and it still won ahead of all the best and the brightest from the US MIC.

Russia is under no illusions who the bad guys are, and who they need to keep secrets from...

You also need the sofwares and the source codes which Russia will never give to anyone. You can't guess what the computers are doing and a big part of why S-400 is so good is the computing.

Indeed, and a lot of it will be software... how far away can an S-400 battery detect and track an F-35... well the Turkish system can detect it at X range, the Indian system can detect it at Y range and the Chinese system can detect it at Z range... but those distances will depend on what each country demanded regarding the specs for the system, and pretty much comes down to how much they paid for it... pay more and get better range... but you wont get the same range the Russians are getting...

Chinese reverse engineered will be MUCH cheaper but also much more bad. That was proven by anything china copied from small arms to jets. Their military industry suck and everyone knows that.

That is a bit harsh... many weapons are simple and easier to copy. State of the art things like aircraft engines are not so simple and require expertise in a range of areas... it is not just a case of replication of parts and assembling them together...

China still buys jet engines from Russia... If China was to invest a few billion dollars on jet engine technology they could master that too...

Won't it make more sense for Russia to derive a light stealth fighter jet with small internal bays from the MiG-21? Mig-21 already has a small radar cross section.

If you want stealth it makes more sense to start from scratch. If you could turn any aircraft into a stealth aircraft then it would be done that way. It isn't. You can make any current design more stealthy but it has the problem of the law of diminished returns.

In other words you can spend $1,000 dollars and make any piece of crap car run, you can spend $10,000 dollars on that car and make it look tidy, you can spend $100,000 dollars and make it fast, but you reach limits where further improvements get much much more expensive and don't really improve performance as much as the earlier cheaper changes.... in other words the cost goes way up and the improvements become less and less everytime so soon it is not really worth trying to upgrade it further.

It makes more sense to start with a new design from scratch to get a great design for less outlay.

Small fighter with weapons bay are a waste of time. F-16 and mig-29 were already very short legs and obliged development of conformal fuel tanks and SMT upgrade.

With a lighter jet with weapons bay it would be already worse.

And that is the key... you probably couldn't make a light stealth fighter that is worth anything useful... medium stealth fighter is the best you could probably achieve but don't make it light and don't expect it to be cheap, though it can be made more affordable than the heavy fighter.

If you treat it like the PAK DA bomber... the PAK DA bomber mixes two roles... theatre bomber and strategic bomber... it can do this because the former demands a large bomb load but over moderate flight ranges, while the latter is a more modest strategic weapon load with a larger fuel load.

With a medium fighter you can trade fuel and weapons loads for different roles... less fuel and more weapons at the start of the conflict to deal with lots of enemy aircraft and cruise missile/standoff missile attacks, and later on less weapons and more fuel to patrol airspace and deal with threats that present themselves.

Internal weapons and fuel minimise RCS and drag, which allows medium to high altitude operations where speed and range are maximised.

I think Russia (unlike the USSR) sees this latest cold war as mainly a clash for long term economic benefits/realignment....strictly military considerations are of secondary importance.

Well they don't need to worry about selling an ideology, though the west still does, which makes things harder for the west amusingly... they are trying to sell western culture to the world... consumerism and amusingly tolerance and understanding of others... or we will bomb you and put you under economic sanctions and make you poor.

[quote="andalusia"]

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

I read somewhere that Vann7 said that Brazil and Russia were going to have a joint collaboration with a Brazilian aero company and Sukhoi to build the SU 57.  With this new right wing reactionary president in power who professes to be a fan of Trump and America; he could have sold the secrets to the Pentagon and Russian air force would be compromised.  

Thats correct.. It was RT quick headlines ,that rotates in their main page where i read it.
Putin offered dilma ruseff , the previous Brazilian President the blue prints and a manufacturing plant in Brazil to build SU-57 planes. It was a huge risk.. what he was proposing , because US Could easily buy /spy and get the secrets from another or
a right wing government betray Russia.. and it didn't took long for a right wing government
to take power.. So Putin's ignorance and naiveness is a major danger for Russia national security.. Is a very huge blunder what he played ,and for the only reason it did not blow back
on his face is because Brazil had no money to buy and did not accept the offer.

But truly had She accepted the deal. .Right now The pentagon and Israel will have the blue prints and a copy of Su-57 on their hangers.. and understand every thing ,there is to know about it.. Even it was a major mistake allow India to get hands on Russia supersonic missiles Brahmos.. Which is a modified version of export version of Onyx missiles..

The biggest blessing and curse of Russia is called Vladimir Putin..
A blessing because he is patriotic and cares about Russia and defend Russia sovereignty.
A Curse for his massive Ignorance , his lack of understanding how to Counter the western system.. and his total absolute passiveness with the US empire. .

The only possible options that exist for Russia are..
To fix their bad relations with the West are..

1) Confront the hostilities with force.. that is declaration of war..
2) or He can confront the hostilities with targeting the US major influence..
by offering a atrong alternative their popular business that the world likes , and allows
US Empire to influence the world towards their Orbit.. This is US high tech industry and
Entertainment industry.
3)Or he can do nothing ,and hope for time "fix things on its own". which is a complete
foolishness.. time never fix problems.. on its own... it means to continue receiving
endless sanctions and more proxy wars as Ukraine and Syria ..

Putin is doing the #3 one. he is not fighting back.. He is not countering the US influence
in the world.. He needs to look at China huawei.. How that company alone is opening the doors to China much more wider and open , that Russia could hope. Russia needs a leader with vision ,that understand ,that every nation in the world is not made on stone.. that every country without an exception can be influenced.. and the lack of leadership of Russia in popular with society business , is what is making things more difficult for Russia.. to get the respect they want.. Putin hoped that his Olympics was going to make NATO fall in love with Russia.. and later he tried with Hypersonic missiles.. he simply don't understand the west.. how to influence them.. China is doing far better job than Russia
influencing the west.. Even Mexico wants China to modernize their country communications.
and Brazil ,did not rejected Chinese business either.. So is proof ,that leadership in business can be used as a weapon to influence other nations. and the more popular is the business among society ,the more the influence in that society .

andalusia wrote:

I read somewhere that Vann7 said that Brazil and Russia were going to have a joint collaboration with a Brazilian aero company and Sukhoi to build the SU 57.  With this new right wing reactionary president in power who professes to be a fan of Trump and America; he could have sold the secrets to the Pentagon and Russian air force would be compromised.  

Thats correct.. It was RT quick headlines ,that rotates in their main page where i read it.
Putin offered dilma ruseff , the previous Brazilian President the blue prints and a manufacturing plant in Brazil to build SU-57 planes.  It was a huge risk.. what he was proposing , because US Could easily buy /spy and get the secrets from another or
a right wing government betray Russia.. and it didn't took long for a right wing government
to take power..  So Putin's ignorance and naiveness is a major danger for Russia national security.. Is a very huge blunder what he played ,and for the only reason it did not blow back
on his face is because Brazil had no money to buy and did not accept the offer.

But truly had She accepted the deal. .Right now The pentagon and Israel will have the blue prints and a copy of Su-57 on their hangers.. and understand every thing ,there is to know about it.. Even it was a major mistake allow India to get hands on Russia supersonic missiles Brahmos.. Which is a modified version of export version of Onyx missiles..

The biggest blessing and curse of Russia is called Vladimir Putin..
A blessing because he is patriotic and cares about Russia and defend Russia sovereignty.
A Curse for his massive Ignorance , his lack of understanding how to Counter the western system.. and his total absolute passiveness with the US empire. .

The only possible options that exist for Russia are..
To fix their bad relations with the West are..

1) Confront the hostilities with force.. that is declaration of war..
2) or He can confront the hostilities with targeting the US major influence..
   by offering a atrong alternative their popular business that the world likes , and allows
   US Empire to influence the world towards their Orbit.. This is US high tech industry and
   Entertainment industry.
3)Or he can do nothing ,and hope for time "fix things on its own". which is a complete
  foolishness.. time never fix problems.. on its own... it means to continue receiving
  endless sanctions and more proxy wars as Ukraine and Syria ..

Putin is doing the #3 one. he is not fighting back.. He is not countering the US influence
in the world.. He needs to look at China huawei.. How that company alone is opening the doors to China much more wider and open , that Russia could hope. Russia needs a leader with vision ,that understand ,that every nation in the world is not made on stone.. that every country without an exception can be influenced..  and the lack of leadership of Russia in popular with society business , is what is making things more difficult for Russia.. to get the respect they want..  Putin hoped that his Olympics was going to make NATO  fall in love with Russia..    and later he tried with Hypersonic missiles..     he simply don't understand the west.. how to influence them.. China is doing far better job than Russia
influencing the west.. Even Mexico wants China to modernize their country communications.
and Brazil ,did not rejected Chinese business either..  So is proof ,that leadership in business can be used as a weapon to influence other nations. and the more popular is the business among society ,the more the influence in that society . Russia needs an economy oriented towards Ordinary people.. Things that they will truly like to spend their hard earned money. because people can't buy Tanks.. or Nuclear reactors or stealth jets..  weapons are needed when leadership and influence fails.

If Putin targeted American Silicon Valley business since he came to power in 2000 ,
long time ago NATO will have been disbanded.. No one in Europe choose Americans over Russia because their shit smell better.. but because US have much better civilian business than Russia.. (no contest) for their nation development..

if they want a car.. US have better cars..
If they want Audio Visual system.. US have better ones..
If they want Internet..  Only US have it..
If they want entertainment.. US is the leader in Entertainment.
If they want  elctronics .. US is very strong electronics..

and to make things worse.. Americans used their politics and military power and Regime change tactics ,to get an alliance with the other most developed asian nations.. Like Japan ,South korea ,taiwan.. that leads the world in High Tech... So they control world technology with their alliances. and Russia is mostly followed by under developed rejected nations..

If they want to follow a nation with more future looking business. US is that country
and Not Russia..  This is the problem with Putin's Russia.. is not a bigger economy what will make Russia a better choice ,than US.. but leadership..  The nation that leads and influence better Europe with their business ,is the one that will get Europe in their orbit.. and Europe is important , because without it.. NATO can't exist.  
So this is why Huawei is banned by Americans.. and why US wants the entire world to do the same.. because is a very influential Business.. and it will steal away the leadership of US
in the world.. (their major influence).   So replacing the bank ,raising the interest or lowering them.. breaking banana records.. winning more olympics.. better nukes or prettier parks  , is not what will make Europe to Abandon The US orbit ,for the Russian one..
Only leadership is what will do that.. Better business will also modernize Russia culture too..
and that will influence Europe to finally drop ,the US system.  And this will be a positive thing for everyone.. including Americans.. citizens.. because will end the wars.. and will end NATO..will end the sanctions and trade wars.. the day Europe forms an alliance with Russia.
and a new multi Polar world will replace it.. with a new United Nations , moved to Europe or Russia.. a new world system created.. that is more fair and more focused in business.

Isos wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1149733696305598464

Good thread to understabd the s-400 for Turkey.



“NATO cannot allow itself to be pulled into a military escalation with Russia as a result of tensions between the two”

Briefly: You cannot invoke article 4


Btw, US and Germany earlier in October 2015, a month before the downing of the jet, pulled their missile defense systems from Turkey.

Not only US and NATO didn’t want to support Turkey against Russia, they also didn’t want to keep their missile defense systems in the country

This is very predictable from NATO...
i have been saying for a long time. .that NATO is not really a real alliance..
that will help US in a war with Russia.. is only an alliance on paper.. in many cases..
and the only way NATO will go to a war with Russia is that Russia start the fight and that nuclear weapons are not used.. If if nukes are used. all europe will retreat from the conflict
and leave Americans alone..

This is why neither US or NATO helped Georgia when they were invaded by Russia
and the same reason why NATO will not allow Georgia to join NATO as a full member..
This is also the same reason why Ukraine will NEVER EVER will become a full NATO member.. and i will quote NATO itself ,why..  from above..

“NATO cannot allow itself to be pulled into a military escalation with Russia as a result of tensions between the two”

So NATO is in reality a US empire defend club.. an alliance for deterrence.. and for keeping tensions high between  Russia and Europe..  US major use of NATO is to have bases close to Russia borders and to use Europe as a human shield against Russia.. and the only ways Germany or France or even UK will go in a war with Russia.. is that is Russia the one who start the war against them...but will be a domestic conflict and not a nuclear one.. once nukes used.. they all will retreat.. And so NATO saw a very high potential , of Russia declaring war on Turkey and without blinking an Eye.. they quickly distanced from it..
they knew very well ,that it will get very ugly with risk of tactical nuclear weapons used and even their military base destroyed.. a very angry Russia is the last thing US will want to face.. and so not surprisingly they ran away from Turkey vs Russia conflict.. as soon a dangerous conflict shows.. they even side with Russia version , to distance even more from the conflict as much as possible ,to minimize the possibility of a war between US and Russia.. So the more dangerous tensions become.. the more friendly US will be with Russia..  This is why is a huge mistake for Putin the Moron to be polite with US.. to smile...
at them.. it will encourage them to hit Russia more.. and slap Russia in the face.. This is why Putin receive pretty puppies and cute dogs.. this is the image Putin project in the world ,a softy weak president..   So Ukraine will never ever be a NATO member and any military help ,they get will be only weapons.. and depending on how weak is their perception of Putin , will be the lethality of the weapons Ukraine will receive.. Notice how when IRAN was tough on Americans.. and shut down their drone and threatened to bomb US bases.. they backed down and did nothing to hit back at IRAN.. Putin can learn something from IRAN
zero tolerance policies to US aggression.

Now putin is doing another big mistake.. trusting in Turkey.. they will sell those S-400 blue prints to NATO as soon they get them.. If he does that ,and teach turkey how to make S-400 , you will see US and ISrael getting all the information and secrets in not time.