Politics and Government of Russia

kvs wrote:It looks like NATzO has only one tool against Russia and that is propaganda.  

Correct, and that is a reason to celebrate. These worms can squirm all they like in the shit of their own making, but they can't compel Russia to do anything. Russia will do as she decides to do, and at a time and place of her choosing. Murkans and their spineless Eurofag vassals can pound sand for an eternity...

But people with functional brains and enough awareness can tell that these ludicrous claims are BS. The facts on
the ground speak for themselves. Russians don't care about NATzO preaching to its own choir. For some reason
the deciders in NATzO think that spreading inane propaganda will result in regime change in Russia. The brain
rot is extreme.

But that is the fundamental difference between the Russians and the west... the west thinks pointing out corruption in Russia might destroy Russia... because look at the way the west treats dissidents from China or Russia... but also look at how they treat whistleblowers... Manning, Snowden, Assange... and plenty you never hear of from the CIA and NSA who go to jail for revealing national secrets.... it is ignored that these secrets are generally corruption or war crimes...

Sorry guys, corruption in Russia is a problem and ignoring it won't make it go away, it will only enable it, and not only it but all sorts of CIA-organized smooth-talking con-artists such as Navalny

Of course it is a problem.... anywhere it is a problem, but the west are not pointing that out to help Russia.... they are pointing it out to say it is worse in Russia than in the west where we have no corruption, because everyone who talks about it goes to jail.

I suspect the only contracts on which you don't have much corruption in Russia are the military-industrial ones. Well maybe aside from shipbuilding.

It is human nature... if you are the casting director and you are picking out pretty people to get a job in a movie that might make their careers and they are desperate.... well taking advantage of that is normal isn't it?  When there are thousands of people wanting the job and only one can do it and they are all pretty and talented... how would you decide... you could even lie to yourself and say it was a test to see how committed they were to do a good job...

And it is not like it doesn't happen further up the chain... some CEO of a movie company wants his daughter in a movie... she gets in the movie... isn't that corruption too?

Some actors create their own companies to make the movies they want to make... it is all about power and the use and misuse of it .

If by corruption you mean payoffs to get contracts or to avoid customs taxes or income taxes, I can tell you the level of that activity is currently lower than at any point in post-Soviet history. It was routine 20 years ago - today not so easy with real risk of jail time. 25 years ago, under Yeltsin, it was a complete joke. Everything was corrupt - almost 100% of businesses siphoned profits into Cypriot offshores. How do you think the Berezovskys of the world made their money? The West and Russian liberals had zero problem with that corruption. It served their interests. The other 95% of the Russian population be damned.

And in places in the west it is just part of doing business.

If you want to sell planes to Arabs you might need to get creative with the whores you send... the French got a lot of contracts because they had beautiful women of purchasable virtue, but sometimes the tastes are different... ie boys... and/or underage type stuff... and if you want the contract that is what you supply.

In the early 1990s it was frustrating for Russian companies because they found they were competing with companies that would lie and offer bribes... they thought the world of the west was free and fair competition and the best gear got the sale.... HAHAHAHA.

From private to municipal to federal.

All the red tape and bullshit to build something like a house or a shed and you pay fees and for inspections and all sorts of rubbish.

A quarter acre property was pretty normal here, but these days people buy such houses and subdivide the section and put three or four smaller houses on them... the local councils love it because it means more people to charge rates, but the water and sewerage systems were not designed for it...

And parking your car becomes a nightmare.

We've gone from the self-declared "lucky country" to a spineless servile whining satrapy, a capering monkey faithfully obeying the commands from its organ grinder. Truth is, we always have been  (heck, we were stupid enough to send troops to Vietnam), but now its become so apparent that even Blind Pew can't fail to notice...  

Not to mention looking down your nose at New Zealand for not being anti China enough.... pricks.

We promise not to rub your nose in it down the track... NOT.  

Murkans and their spineless Eurofag vassals can pound sand for an eternity...

The funny thing is that the US economy is not that great and their government is so far in the red... how ironic is that... that when digital currencies and other alternatives and new alternatives to SWIFT start to gain traction... and they will because the current idiots are using them as weapons so of course all their potential targets are going to make alternative plans in case they follow through... the US dollar might become a brand of toilet paper... and then where will they be?

If their currency is worthless then how are they going to pay what they owe?

I am thinking their comments about never being a friend of Russia, and never agreeing to terms with Russia is being a bit short sighted and naive... and it might end up biting them in the arse.

But then they are bending over backwards to remind everyone they have not friends and only interests and screwing everyone in their way, so why should we care.

So talking about corruption, I watched a Jimmy Dore video where he talked about how the head of the FDA in the USA just became a board member of Phizer. Apparently, the guy has a rap sheet of being ceo of many pharmaceutical companies before being part of FDA head.

He talks about the history and how this has been a problem for a long time.

Not same video but he has covered about how various defense ministers and pentagon guys either got hired on after or before being in their position, by major weapons manufacturers.

As he pointed out, this is mass corruption on a massive scale, yet not a thing is done or talked about.

But one that is easily forgotten, was Vice President Dick Chaney's stakes in Haliburton which got excessive contracts in Iraq war that they (US gov) initiated.

Just recently, at least here in Canada - Canada's former defense minister had apparently given contracts to his own wife's agency. But I'm still researching that. But biggest one was our Prime Minister was paying his own family exorbants amount for "speeches" to be made and this is at taxpayers expense. When he was being questioned about it, apparently he tried to destroy evidence. He is still our PM and even our own media had evidence of it.

Is there corruption in Russia? Yes there is, just like any other country.

Is the corruption in Russia as big as the Western Media say's? No.

It is less than it was in the past, there should be more laws to tackle this issue(the death penalty should be on the table.)

Russian authorizes are working to tackle this issue.





Corruption in Russia is no where the level of US, the Pentagon lost track of a Trillion dollars, as well as equipment worth millions.

Corruption in Murica.

" Kleptocrats have stolen $100 billion of government money.

Oh, I forgot one important detail – in the United States.

Who said this? No, neither Vladimir Solovyev, nor Dmitry Kiselev, nor Margarita Simonyan.

US Secret Service Coordinator Roy Dotson made this statement.

In his words, the US allocated money to counter pandemic-related unemployment but, as you might have guessed, these funds did not reach the jobless.

In general, Mr Dotson is refreshingly honest. He asks himself: “Can we stop fraud? Will we?” and answers “No.”




https://thesaker.is/this-morning-from-marias-office/

On January 19, the Gennady Zyuganov-led Communist Party faction submitted a draft to the State Duma addressed to Vladimir Putin calling for recognizing the independence of the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics

https://en.topwar.ru/191332-v-gosdumu-vnesli-proekt-obraschenija-k-putinu-o-priznanii-doneckoj-i-luganskoj-narodnyh-respublik.html

The threat of recognising these regions as independent could be justified by Kosovos declaration of independence, and would certainly light a fire under Kiev to do something.

Now whether that something is start talks with these regions or invade is another question but if the alternative is just a continuation of what we have perhaps it would not be the worst thing Russia could do.

Right now Russia is waiting to see if Kiev is that stupid... much the same as they waited to see if Tiblisi was that dumb.

Two ongoing situations where people are being sporadically attacked and killed and Russia unable to do very much at all about it.

Ending the current situation is not a high priority for Russia, though a solution would be something they would be interested in.

For the people in these regions a bit of peace and security would be very very welcome I suspect.

For Kiev they need to decide whether to talk or attack, but they know if they attack Russia will intervene and these regions will be separated.... and if these regions develop and prosper with open trade with Russia then other regions might consider joining them and the Ukraine might all break away from Kiev and western regions, which might have been the plan all along from both sides.

Russia can't really continue to do nothing, but there is no interest in an invasion either, so this would effect change... once recognised as independent the next attack by Kiev could be claimed to be an attack for which the regions could ask their large neighbour to the East for assistance and even peace keepers...

flamming_python wrote:

George1 wrote:On January 19, the Gennady Zyuganov-led Communist Party faction submitted a draft to the State Duma addressed to Vladimir Putin calling for recognizing the independence of the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics

https://en.topwar.ru/191332-v-gosdumu-vnesli-proekt-obraschenija-k-putinu-o-priznanii-doneckoj-i-luganskoj-narodnyh-respublik.html

That would be pretty retarded, as it would amount to giving up on the whole of the rest of the Ukraine. What would be there for these rump states to do on their own?

Zyuganov is just an opportunist who has allied himself with the Navalnites. That's all you need to know

Not from a wider perspective, FP.
Are they going to recognize the republics in their de facto existing shape, or administrative, geographical borders?
If they are to recognize them in any way, why shouldn't they recognize the followers, like Odesskaja Narodnaja Respublika?

In that case the Ukraine will lose those regions for good, but Russia will also lose the Ukraine to NATO, in that Kiev can just decide to accept the territorial losses and join NATO

The idiots in power in the Ukraine want to join HATO, and are doing everything they can to make that happen... but of course it is not really their decision... HATO decides who joins or who does not, and a bit like Georgia they are not accepting the loss of the Crimea, they are hardly going to accept the loss of any more territory.

The US wants Ukraine to join and the people with influence and power in the Ukraine clearly want that too... I simply can't see any way for Russia to convince them otherwise... and not really sure they should bother trying.

Whether the Ukraine is part of HATO or just good friends they are essentially a HATO vassal and have HATO troops there currently and HATO bases to accommodate them...

The Ukraine has gone... it is now a question of whether to save a part of it or leave it to the wolves... a bit like WWII when Stalin had the choice of taking back the Ukraine that was part of Poland or sit back and let Germany take it all.

Still nazis but a more local brood.

In fact with no leverage left against Washington, that's pretty much what they'll do.

And that does not really change the current situation, because even if they join it will take years to get them compatible and up to standard, and HATO forces will remain on Ukrainian territory anyway... the difference is that Russia can send peacekeepers to the Donbass and silence Ukrainian artillery for good and give these people some peace and let them start to solve their economic problems.

The only thing stopping that scenario at the moment are the Minsk agreements, that Kiev wants to wiggle out of.

Wiggle out of?

You mean completely ignore.

The European have went to Moscow before to try and get Russia to recognize the conflict as one between Russia and the Ukraine, i.e. that Russia is occupying Ukrainian territory. As I heard Poroshenko in his time offered Putin to just incorporate the regions into Russia, but Putin replied that he doesn't need them.

They believe their own propaganda.... and they are idiots.

Now the Ukraine is looking to cancel the Minsk agreements by doing a suicide charge against the Donbass. Whether it succeeds or it fails doesn't matter, the agreement will be no more. Russia then going and recognizing those regions as independent, mean that Kiev will have everything it actually wants.

Not at all. Kiev wants those territories back under its control so it can sell everything of value to the highest bidder and then bugger off to some European country with all the loot they have nicked.

Those territories also include the valuable land of the Crimea so we can of course agree they will never get what they actually want.

Losing another chunk of territory is not what they want... they do want to pretend this is a Russian invasion and those in these regions are actually all Russians that have invaded Ukrainian territory and are planning to take it all, when all it really is is Ukrainians fighting Ukrainians, with Russia trying to deter a Kiev launched blood bath... and also thinking Kiev making the Russian language illegal is going a bit too far too.

But the solution is not an invasion or making Ukrainian language illegal or any such crap... let them be an autonomous region and make their own rules and stop shelling them and give them time to decide their future for themselves... they might prefer to use the Russian language, but I speak English but I don't want English citizenship or for the UK to come down here and take over...

Well it seems Ukraine is backing off from suicide

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10436705/amp/Americans-safer-Kyiv-LA-source-close-Zelensky-slams-Biden-evacuating-Ukraine.html

404 is off the rails, at the same time EU gave them 1.2 billion euros to back off, and lo and behold they're saying Russian troops can move around on their own territory

'Americans are safer in Kiev than LA': Ukraine president blasts Biden for evacuating US citizens and encouraging his country to democratize - 'but being the first to leave when Russia turns up temperature'

“This is their territory, they have the right to move left and right there. Is it unpleasant for us? Yes, it’s unpleasant, but it’s not news to us. If this is news to someone in the West, I apologize,” he said.

Ukr 404 self preservation turned on, they are going against the US and UK play


At the same time Normandy meeting is on, explaining German schizophrenic comments last week from naval chief and scholz

Someone wants their nord stream 2 back...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tass.com/world/1392535/amp

404 wanted apologies from german Nord stream 2 , I mean naval chief

But then they got thrown this bone to shut it

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-offers-ukraine-12-bln-euro-aid-package-2022-01-24/

I mean if I had to choose 1.2 billion and life, or a revolver with one bullet to blow my head off, I'd go with life too

https://tass.ru/obschestvo/13555991

Russia is gonna accept a bill to send pedophiles for life imprisonment.

We need this law here in Canada. Pedophiles get away with their crimes here. It's sick. Russia is a far safer country now while Canada protects their criminals.

Many a country in the West seems to ignore this horrendous issue. They much rather want to protect those in elite positions instead of preventing these psycho predators from destroying young people's lives.

Occasionally you see some so called expert popping up calling such insanity a disease and that these predators need help and understanding rather than punishment.

Some teenage kid doing something inappropriate with underage cousins or relatives is obviously a crime but not the same as an adult who chooses a career as a teacher or priest or cub scout master to get access to children.

The former could just be curiosity about sex at an early age and taking advantage of the power difference between a teenager and a younger person... obviously depending on the level of offending, but the latter is calculated planned criminality.

Most organisations are more worried about the bad publicity than the effects on the past, current and potentially future victims... whether it is a school or a church or entire religion or for instance the BBC.

The BBC went both ways... it ignored Jimmy Savile, and after it was revealed what a sexual predator he was they went the other way and were looking for someone to scapegoat and tried to lynch Sir Cliff Richard, who was proven innocent.

Russian diplomacy shows Western master class, by Evgeny Krutikov for VZGLYAD. 10.02.2022.

The excessive "partisanship" of Western diplomats makes them talk in ideological clichés, since they cannot go beyond the dominant ideology.

On February 10, diplomats and diplomatic workers celebrate their professional holiday in Russia. According to the account, this is the twentieth "day of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs" since its establishment in 2002 by President Putin. And this year marks the 220th anniversary of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs itself - in 1802, Emperor Alexander I ordered the creation of a specialized ministry on the basis of the Collegium, which, in turn, was established by Peter I instead of the former Ambassadorial Order.

This year, Diplomatic Worker's Day coincided with an emergency visit to Moscow by British Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary Elizabeth (Liz) Mary Truss. The official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, called it a "holiday gift," and Minister Trass, in her opening remarks before the start of negotiations with Lavrov, also mentioned the professional holiday of Russian diplomats. Looking ahead, let's say that the first day of negotiations ended with almost nothing, and Mrs. Truss showed a strong unwillingness to hear and understand the arguments of the Russian side, not going beyond the ideological clichés and rhetoric on the momentary problem of "Russian invasion of Ukraine". She is not interested in strategic issues of regional security and, most likely, is simply incomprehensible to a human being.

Previously, her performances caused the same Zakharova not even irony, but outright laughter. And the rest of the public was greatly entertained by the historical and geographical passages of Mrs. Truss (her husband's surname is O'Leary, but she made a political career under her maiden name).

It all started with the "brave Ukrainians", who repeatedly repelled invasions - from "Mongols to Tatars". Okay, Truss studied at a public school in proletarian Leeds and is not obliged to know that in the 13th century there was no Ukraine, like Ukrainians, in principle, and the Mongol-Tatars are then one and the same, and not two different peoples who , in her mind, attacked in turn.

As soon as they laughed at the Mongol-Tatar occasion, a story happened with geography. In an interview with the BBC, Minister Truss said the UK would provide additional assistance to its "Baltic allies across the Black Sea". Here everyone first thought, not believing their ears and gloomily looking at the map of Europe. And then Zakharova, who is especially fond of this, reacted : “Mrs Truss, your knowledge of history is nothing compared to your knowledge of geography,” she wrote.

And the icing on the cake, of course, was Truss' statement that "Great Britain will never recognize Russian sovereignty" over the Voronezh and Rostov regions. The British Ambassador to Russia had to specifically and publicly explain to his boss that both Voronezh and Rostov-on-Don were on Russian territory.

It is simply impossible to imagine any similar, let's say, clumsy, but in fact simply illiterate statements coming from Russian diplomats. By the way, any professional foreign minister would not ride a tank in a foreign country - this is more of an attraction for the minister of defense. A career diplomat would prefer to avoid such associations. This is if he really would like to resolve issues through diplomacy.

The question arises: where do the British get their ministers like that? Answer: from parliamentary democracy. That is, in fact, according to the ad. After all, as it was with Truss. In 2010, on her third attempt, she was elected to parliament for the village constituency in Norfolk. During this period, the coalition government of David Cameron, in addition to sadness with Brexit, was regularly shaken by monotonous scandals. Then the secretary of the Treasury from the state budget will pay for the apartment of his homosexual partner. Then the Minister of Defense will ask for a subsidy to his friend. Then the Minister of Energy will try to transfer fines for speeding to his wife.

In the end, Cameron made about fifty reshuffles in the government. In Britain, people can be moved from place to place, regardless of their professional skills, education and passions.

And in 2012, parliamentary organizer (this is a government position) Andrew Mitchell got into a fight with a policeman, using obscene language. Thus rose the star Liz Truss, who became Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Education. And already in 2014, she becomes the Minister of Agriculture, Food and the Environment. And in 2016, she is already Minister of Justice and Lord Chancellor in the government of Theresa May.

In 2017, Theresa May removes Truss from the position of Lord Chancellor as having failed (officially this was called "for a number of mistakes made"). Here to think about it. But already in the second cabinet, Mae Truss holds the position of Chief Secretary of the Treasury (in our opinion, this is the Minister of Finance). Approximately the same somersaults Liz Truss did in the government of Boris Johnson. And finally, in September 2021, she becomes the Minister for Foreign Affairs of the United Kingdom, which is considered the pinnacle of a career for any British politician. Then you can only lead the Conservative Party and become prime minister.

Here is the principle. The party that wins the election (in this case, the Conservatives) forms a composite cabinet of ministers from party members. Training is not important. All appointments within the Cabinet are political in nature. The positions of the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom over the past fifty years have turned out to be a variety of people, most of whom were not professional diplomats. One of them, David Miliband, even had a great-aunt in Moscow (Sofya Davidovna Miliband, a well-known Soviet and Russian Iranian orientalist and bibliographer). And he, by the way, before heading the Foreign Office, was also the Minister of Agriculture.

Something similar is happening with the post of Minister of Defense. The current minister, Ben Wallace, who is going to Moscow on February 11, at least really graduated from the military academy and served in the Scottish Guards. Although his appointment is exclusively political. But before him, who had not been in this position! Penelope Mordont started her career as an assistant to an illusionist (she was cut in a box in a circus), and before heading the British army, she worked everywhere: the Ministry for People with Disabilities, the Ministry of External Development, the Ministry of Women and Equal Opportunities. Also recently, Gavin Williamson was the UK Secretary of Defense, remembered for saying that Russia "should step aside and shut up." He generally sold toilets and fireplaces until he became a parliamentary coordinator. And from the position of secretary of defense, Boris Johnson moved him to the post of secretary of education. Okay army. But the British schoolchildren are sincerely sorry.

(By the way, this is how the Bolsheviks behaved. Well, you know: “there are no such fortresses.” It was believed that a good party cadre could work first at a large construction site, then at a publishing house, then at a collective farm in a national republic, and then in the foreign policy field It is another matter that by the mid-1930s this practice nevertheless ceased, and an era of professionalism began in everything, and primarily in Soviet diplomacy.)

And after the parliamentary elections, in case of a loss, the whole company immediately goes into opposition. A new one comes, and the leapfrog begins anew. In order to try to "preserve continuity", the UK has the institution of a "permanent undersecretary". This position is held by a non-partisan professional who is called upon to yell at political appointees when they start to carry a completely blizzard. Show how everything works here in general (“incoming here, outgoing there, don’t touch anything here, Madam Minister, I have the key to the safe, ring the bell”), and explain that the Baltic countries are located in the Baltic, and not on the Black Sea. At the very least, this scheme worked in the 20th century, when the British political elite was less permeable to completely outsiders. The breakdown of the aristocratic-caste system led to the conditional Gavin Williamson as Secretary of Defense and Education and to the specific Liz Truss as Foreign Secretary. And in these cases, no permanent deputy minister will save you, since you have to answer questions live, and negotiations with Lavrov must be conducted here and now, preferably flexibly and understanding how the globe works.

Not a single Russian diplomat would allow himself such a thing. It is impossible to recall a single public blunder of such lethal force that the diplomats of Western democracies allow themselves. Education and traditions do not allow.

Of course, out of inertia, one can criticize the old-school, slightly prim style inherited from the Soviet diplomatic school. But he has changed a lot in the last twenty years. The main thing is that the high level of professionalism, based on the encyclopedic knowledge, does not fundamentally change. And this, too, is still a Soviet legacy. There is another fundamentally important point that critically affects modern Western diplomacy. Our Western partners have absolutely ceased to operate with strategic goals, concepts and schemes. It’s not that they don’t calculate moves and actions two or three ahead at all. Calculate. But all these are just tactical schemes aimed at solving some momentary problem.

Of course, out of inertia, one can criticize the old-school, slightly prim style inherited from the Soviet diplomatic school. But he has changed a lot in the last twenty years. The main thing is that the high level of professionalism, based on the encyclopedic knowledge, does not fundamentally change. And this, too, is still a Soviet legacy. There is another fundamentally important point that critically affects modern Western diplomacy. Our Western partners have absolutely ceased to operate with strategic goals, concepts and schemes. It’s not that they don’t calculate moves and actions two or three ahead at all. Calculate. But all these are just tactical schemes aimed at solving some momentary problem.

For example, they are told about the strategic stability of security on the whole continent for at least fifty years to come. And they answered about Ukraine and the "invasion". And not because Ukraine is so important to them, but because strategic issues go beyond their current electoral cycle. The Conservatives will lose the election, and Liz Truss will return with a light heart to the problems of agriculture in opposition. Or to issues of gender equality and notorious diversity. It personally does not make sense for her to strain, learn the globe, find out the difference between the Black and Baltic Seas. As well as delving into the question of who else was attacked first by the Mongols, and then by the Tatars, and how all this is connected with modern politics (at a press conference in Moscow, when asked about the Mongol-Tatars, she answered about the “Russian invasion of Ukraine”). And Her Majesty's government as a whole.

“After us, at least the deluge” (apres nous la deluge) was said in another era and in another country, but in modern Western parliamentary democracies this catchphrase has been filled with new meaning. And it is difficult for Russian diplomats to talk with Westerners, with the same Liz Truss today - not even because there are problems with general education, but because their planning horizon is limited by the election campaign. In addition, the excessive "partisanship" of Western diplomats makes them talk in ideological clichés, since they cannot go beyond the dominant ideology. This is precisely what Soviet diplomacy was accused of at one time.

Modern Russian diplomacy looks much more professional against this background. It has now become commonplace in the liberal press to scold the Foreign Ministry and personally Lavrov, but this should remain on the conscience of these people, who themselves have never done anything meaningful in their lives. Now the position and practical work of the Russian Foreign Ministry turn out to be much more pragmatic and professional than the extremely ideological and momentary approach to the problems of our time, which we see primarily among the Anglo-Saxons. And this is not a “congratulations” for a professional holiday, but a statement of fact.

Re the leadership changes just announced yesterday. This re Borisov with Rogosin going to a 'Governor' role in Ukraine.

From MoA

Martyanov has a post on the leadership changes.

But let's recall who Yuri Borisov is--yes, he is one of the major driving forces behind modernization and rearmament of Russian Armed Forces which underwent fast and dramatic update which turned them into arguably best fighting force of today. Borisov's role in this is huge, to put it mildly.

Borisov is appointed to Roscosmos post to INTRODUCE into full production some revolutionary space technologies of which we know only about nuclear tug Zevs, but what else? Expect some big news relatively soon. What can it be? I hate speculations, you know that, but the talk and rumors about Russia's 6th generation fighter capable to transition from air to space flight and back are persistent.

https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2022/07/about-borisovs-new-post.html

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 16 2022 3:50 utc | 252

Not sure there would be an enormous advantage for a fighter to be able to climb to fly in space... for a start the speed required would be enormous and therefore the amount of fuel burned would be equally enormous and for what gain?

If you are launching long range missile attacks of course altitude and speed would be valuable in extending the range of any weapon but most normal missiles wont function at extreme altitudes... their tiny control surfaces having no effect in the very thin air for instance.