Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

Hole wrote:Most of the russian population is very good educated...

Piece of paper that everyone gets just because education is made available to any random idiot that walks through the door isn't a valid metric

What you are even talking about?
They are winning all the youth Olympics that are there, in some taking all the gold medals that were avaiable.
Still not impressed? Well ...

ALAMO wrote:What you are even talking about?
They are winning all the youth Olympics that are there, in some taking all the gold medals that were avaiable.
Still not impressed? Well ...

12% vaccination rate in a country that had the first vaccine available and large fake vaccination certificate market​ doesn't exactly scream quality education

Face it, it's just a small number of quality specimens dragging behind them a useless mass of morons

PapaDragon wrote:

ALAMO wrote:What you are even talking about?
They are winning all the youth Olympics that are there, in some taking all the gold medals that were avaiable.
Still not impressed? Well ...

12% vaccination rate in a country that had the first vaccine available and large fake vaccination certificate market​ doesn't exactly scream quality education

Quite the opposite in fact! Refusing to get injected with some experimental thingy for a virus that you have a 99% chance of survival tells me their brain cells are still working quite well actually!

Anyway to get back to the 22350M. The original boat has been tested and proven, but technology and requirements change all the time. Clearly they are thinking in terms of modernizing the original design and it will probably morph into something a bit larger with more weapons and improved electronics. They already have follow up version and the M will likely be an enlarged version of it. It shouldn't cause too much hassle for seamless production.

Mir wrote:Quite the opposite in fact! Refusing to get injected with some experimental thingy for a virus that you have a 99% chance of survival tells me their brain cells are still working quite well actually!...

That experimental thingy was created by that country's top experts, scientists and doctors but you are saying that bunch of unwashed rubes are now smarter than top experts, scientists and doctors?

What exactly does that say about that country?

And why is Russia even bothering with face masks, hospitals and ventilators when it's completely harmless?

Also the other clown said that there were mass graves in Europe and USA for virus victims while you say that it's harmless?

You need to synchronize your nonsense before speaking up otherwise you just make yourself sound like idiots ahead of schedule

You are welcome to take this into an appropriate thread, but we should stick to Gorshkov here.

Arrow wrote:Is Russia really playing in the US league? Russia has more than two times less population and in GDP it is 5 times smaller than the USA

The same league certainly, but maybe not the same game... US, China and Russia are the three superpowers of our world in the early XXI century, they are the ones enjoying full subjectivity in international matters and that comes at the price of having a proper military and therefore proper navies. The mission of the VMF will be deterrence, not submission by carpet bombing of rebellious countries, therefore their navy will focus on guided weapons and advanced AD and naval strike technologies. No need to replicate the numbers of the USN, but they are not going to defend their interests with some half arsed corvettes that can be trivially defeated. So they need a proper blue water navy with proper numbers and a robust roadmap that considers other powers waking up and undercutting some of the advantage Russia now has in missile and AD technology.

kvs wrote:The point that many ignore or do not even realize is that thanks to missile tech the size of modern naval ships can no longer be framed in WWII terms.
The small corvettes in the Caspian that engaged targets in Syria made many frigates obsolete. So the obsession with the size of the Gorshkov variants
is off the mark. I am sure the designers will be making sure to think of the missiles first and design accordingly.

Dick measuring against the Arleigh Burke is for the uninformed.

A navy capable of operating at long distances from Russia or in open seas demands big ships, there is no way around that, for many reasons like sea keeping, autonomy and capability of systems among others.

From the data known, 22350M is placed firmly in the displacement class of a destroyer. It is not some redesign of the original version, is a different class from vessel, at least in the Western classification.

LMFS wrote:....but they are not going to defend their interests with some half arsed corvettes...

...22350M is placed firmly in the displacement class of a destroyer...

Time to build lead ship:

Steregushchiy-class: 7 years

Gremyashchiy-class: 9 years

Gorshkov-class: 12 years

Noticing a pattern here? Already abysmal build time grows significantly with displacement

Serial ones are nothing to write home about either


Killing production of Gorshkovs now in order to spend at least next decade and a half waiting for some pipe dream is idiotic and, dare I say, retarded

PapaDragon wrote:Time to build lead ship:

Steregushchiy-class: 7 years

Gremyashchiy-class: 9 years

Gorshkov-class: 12 years

Noticing a pattern here? Already abysmal build time grows significantly with displacement

Serial ones are nothing to write home about either


Killing production of Gorshkovs now in order to spend at least next decade and a half waiting for some pipe dream is idiotic and, dare I say, retarded

You don't need to pretend that you are smarter than anyone in the VMF. First, all the projects you mention have suffered substantial disruptions. Second, the industry as a whole was ailing when they were started and only now something similar to normalcy is starting to be thinkable, but not quite there. And third, nobody is saying the Gorshkovs are not going to be produced in Russia anymore, this is just Severanaya wanting to start with the bigger 22350M for which they have been modernising the shipyard.

kvs wrote:Russia is not interested in operating around the Falklands. It clearly does not need bigger ships to operate in the eastern Mediterranean.
Being able to stop yanqui imperialist aggression off Russia's shores is the priority.

It would be nice if Russia could shut the US navy down in places like Venezuela, but that is not going to happen any time soon and
there is no hurry in Russia to reach this globo-cop level. Running around saving everyone's ass is a waste of resources. The US
does have the advantage that most of the world is dominated by comprador elites and countries which break free are unstable.
This has been the story during the 1900s and is still true today.

Globocop, I like it
I don't know about the Falklands, but Russia has legitimate interests all over the world, and developing them demands to have a fleet capable of acting well away from the protection of land based resources and deter rivals encroaching on their ships and allies. They are still far from having capability for global reach, but they are progressively increasing their power projection capabilities. Just the last days they performed a huge, unprecedented exercise in the middle of the Pacific, 4000 km away from the Russian shores, which has nothing to do with protecting their territory, and few days later the Tu-22M3 and MiK-31K were deployed to Syria, while quite uncharacteristically Putin openly threatened UK with sinking their ships. As the capacities of the country grow, its international weight will increase too, and it will dare intervening where it did not dare until now. Not to save anybody's ass, but for their own interest. As I keep repeating, this is plainly stated in their strategic documents, we just need to listen to the professionals.

Looks like Gorshkov-clas will be cut down to just 8 hulls and Navy is going back to their usual stupidity of starting from scratch in the middle of the series construction hoping that they will not screw up next project just when they finally stopped screwing up current one

Of course... engage mouth before using brain...

This is one shipyard saying it is moving from producing a frigate design to an enlarged version of said frigate.

Also, the vice-president of USC noted that the corporation is currently building a series of frigates of project 22350. In total, eight frigates of this series will be built. The seventh and eighth frigates were laid down in 2020.

“We have decided to build these frigates, which are now 22350 for fast and high-quality filling of the fleets. Versions 22350 and 22350M complement each other. The upgraded version will receive more weapons, and other characteristics will be improved, ”explained Vice Admiral, Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Vladimir Kasatonov.

So these are good frigates but they have decided they want them a bit bigger... buying 8 Gorshkov class frigates makes sense because four frigates in the Baltic Fleet and four more in the Black Sea fleet will be a useful start, but they are too small for use in the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet.

Make 8 Gorshkov Frigates and then make 24 big Gorshkov frigates for the other two Navy fleets... then they can move on to the destroyers and then only have to worry about the 10-12 cruisers they have to design and build which will practically design themselves because they will just be scaled up destroyers with bigger sensors... radar and sonar etc and also more weapons...

It will be the backbone for a while till they get larger variants. Its enough to travel to from Syria and their apparent new base in Sudan

It is a good design, so a slightly scaled up model with heavier armament should be good enough to compliment their new destroyer class.

Don't cancel what you have now for something that still only exists on paper, have they learned nothing from the good old days of Yeltsin?

They haven't cancelled anything, they have expanded that particular yard for the purpose of building larger ship... saying they only need more 8 frigates produced in their yard suggests they want to move to bigger and better things which is a good thing.

Of course the new Russian Navy is not going to be enormous so for a relatively small navy... having lots of Corvettes and fewer Frigates and more Destroyers and Cruisers is better value for money... Corvettes are cheap, but Frigates are not that cheap but not as effective as destroyers which are more expensive but are worth it...

Gripe is that they were barely putting together standard Gorshkovs and now when they finally gotten close to sorting out the production problems they decided to flush everything down the toilet (again) and start from scratch (again)

We all know how that worked (several) times before

They produced some and tested them and their decision was that they were too small... should they keep making them anyway?

They will be fine for the Black Sea and Baltic Sea but don't have the range and endurance for the northern and pacific fleets.

Making bigger frigates will mean they can operate from any of the four main ports or could be based at Tartus.

This is a highly effective ship more effective than even their current available destroyers and cruisers in terms of surface to surface attack.

But do you want 24 frigates and only 12 Destroyers and perhaps 4 cruisers... considering the distribution of the Russian fleets and the distances you would need to travel from the northern and pacific fleets to actually get anywhere... Frigates are good for internal seas like the baltic sea and the black sea and the med, but larger ships are needed for the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleets.

Russia has a huge coastline and massive distance between fleets.

Frigates make sense in only two of their fleets... too big for the Caspian Sea Fleet and the current Gorshkovs are way too small for their northern and pacific fleets. An enlarged Gorshkov makes sense in terms of production experience with bigger ships and also for scaling up designs... which is going to be useful soon too.

The most likely answer here is that the 22350M is just a slightly larger 22350, ie a "heavy" frigate. Enough space to add an upsized UKSK and Redut battery, maybe upgraded (heavier) main radar? They clearly will not be discarding the 22350 design and starting with a clean sheet, and suggestions to the contrary are just nonsense.

This is a possibility too... I was hoping the new destroyers would be big enough to justify nuclear propulsion, but in any event I don't think they need frigates in large numbers... Gorshkov or super Gorshkov sized.

PapaDragon wrote:
Time to build lead ship:

Steregushchiy-class: 7 years

Gremyashchiy-class: 9 years

Gorshkov-class: 12 years

Noticing a pattern here?

The real difference is that now all the weapons and components and systems are tested and in service... so no more problems with Redut or larger calibre guns or engines... there will of course be all new problems but that is normal.

Gorschkow was laid down in Feb. 2006 and launched in Oct. 2010. That´s a building time of 4,5 years. Not quite fast but OK for a totally new class (not a modification of an already existing class like the Burke). Fitting out took long because of the shit Big_Gazza already mentioned. The rest of the time was the lengthy trials period in which stuff like the integration of the Ka-31 or Ka-52 or of land-based radar systems into the ships electronics was tested. On western ships such stuff would be tested long after it was put into service.

And it is important to emphasise their new Frigates and Corvettes are more multirole than their Kirovs ever were... their Kirovs had bigger missiles, and had more missiles, but it didn't have any land attack missiles, and was able to perform multiple roles simply because of its size allowing large anti ship missiles and anti submarine weapons while still having enough remaining room for surface to air missiles in large enough numbers to not only defend itself (basic requirement for any armed warship) but also defend other ships operating with it (job for cruisers and destroyers).

Frigates will coordinate the air defence of a small group of ships if there is no bigger ship there and in doing so will make that group of ships much better defended than just a corvette could manage on its own, but because of the size and capacity limitations Corvettes and Frigates essentially defend themselves... when you have groups then they become less vulnerable and are much better able to provide mutual support... but their ability is limited.

Frigates are really just very big long endurance patrol ships... super sized Corvettes, which is fine... such ships are excellent for peace time because in peace time all those missiles do very little and the guns are used to threaten and coerce.

If you look at the Soviet Navy the Frigates were the Krivaks which generally had half the main missile fire power of the Destroyers... four large missiles for Krivak compared with 8 for Sovremmeny and Udaloy... so essentially it was a big corvette with better endurance and better guns.

These days their corvettes have the same or better missile armament than their cold war destroyers... with two UKSK launchers not only can a modern corvette carry twice the main missile load of the Sov or the Udaloy... it can carry weapons superior to each with Onyx and soon Zircon being superior in every way to Moskit in the Sovs, and the Ovtet or 91ER1 being superior to Metel in the Udaloy or Krivak... it can also carry long range land attack cruise missiles which no Soviet era ship or sub had with a conventional warhead.

Of course they are going to need to take a long time testing... not just all the new features and options but in all the different temperature conditions and weather conditions of the five fleets of Russia... they might put a frigate in the Caspian Sea perhaps as a flagship, but the other bases would be fine for Frigates, though as I mentioned smaller frigates in the Baltic and Black Sea and bigger ones in the Northern and Pacific Fleets.

PapaDragon wrote:

Mir wrote:Quite the opposite in fact! Refusing to get injected with some experimental thingy for a virus that you have a 99% chance of survival tells me their brain cells are still working quite well actually!...

That experimental thingy was created by that country's top experts, scientists and doctors but you are saying that bunch of unwashed rubes are now smarter than top experts, scientists and doctors?

What exactly does that say about that country?

And why is Russia even bothering with face masks, hospitals and ventilators when it's completely harmless?

Also the other clown said that there were mass graves in Europe and USA for virus victims while you say that it's harmless?

You need to synchronize your nonsense before speaking up otherwise you just make yourself sound like idiots ahead of schedule

Off topic on

The experimental thingy has not been tested long enough, and the medium and long term consequences are unknown.

Nevertheless also the short term
consequences of most covid vaccines rival the issues with the coronavirus itself for people below 50.

Normally when I take medicaments they have been tested and used for many years. I have no interest to take unnecessary risks for the hope of some slightly higher defences against the basic version of the coronavirus.

From the data already available in UK and Israel, the vaccines do not protect more or prevent deaths for people exposed to the delta (formerly called "Indian") variant.

End of Off topic

The Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad already expressed its interest in building 22350 frigates.

So it is possible that severnaya verf will finish building the frigates which construction already started and then will move to the larger 22350M, while Yantar will build a new serie (4 ships or more) of 22350, and Amur shipyard will instead continue the large corvettes series (20380 class).

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The experimental thingy has not been tested long enough, and the medium and long term consequences are unknown....

That experimental thingy is a derivative of old Ebola vaccine and it's been tested more than plenty and consequences (lack of them) are well known

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:...The Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad already expressed its interest in building 22350 frigates.

So it is possible that severnaya verf will finish building the frigates which construction already started and then will move to the larger 22350M, while Yantar will build a new serie (4 ships or more) of 22350, and Amur shipyard will instead continue the large corvettes series (20380 class)....

This would be the most intelligent decision ever made by Russian Navy regarding the surface fleet but it's just a rumour and Russian Navy is not known for making intelligent decisions

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
End of Off topic

The Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad already expressed its interest in building 22350 frigates.

So it is possible that severnaya verf will finish building the frigates which construction already started and then will move to the larger 22350M, while Yantar will build a new serie (4 ships or more) of 22350, and Amur shipyard will instead continue the large corvettes series (20380 class).

The Svernaya yard is about to radically expand so they can up the production any time if required.

PapaDragon wrote:

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The experimental thingy has not been tested long enough,  and the medium and long term consequences are unknown....

That experimental thingy is a derivative of old Ebola vaccine and it's been tested more than plenty and consequences (lack of them) are well known

Quite right. It's "platform" is also used for the treatment of cancer for many years so it could be considered relatively safe. Definitely not an mRNA type vaccine - which is another plus.
If I have to take a vaccine this will be the obvious choice for me.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Mir wrote:Quite the opposite in fact! Refusing to get injected with some experimental thingy for a virus that you have a 99% chance of survival tells me their brain cells are still working quite well actually!...

That experimental thingy was created by that country's top experts, scientists and doctors but you are saying that bunch of unwashed rubes are now smarter than top experts, scientists and doctors?

What exactly does that say about that country?

And why is Russia even bothering with face masks, hospitals and ventilators when it's completely harmless?

Also the other clown said that there were mass graves in Europe and USA for virus victims while you say that it's harmless?

You need to synchronize your nonsense before speaking up otherwise you just make yourself sound like idiots ahead of schedule

Off topic on

The experimental thingy has not been tested long enough,  and the medium and long term consequences are unknown.

Nevertheless also the short term
consequences of most covid vaccines rival the issues with the coronavirus itself for people below 50.

Normally when I take medicaments they have been tested and used for many years. I have no interest to take unnecessary risks for the hope of some slightly higher defences against the basic version of the coronavirus.

From the data already available in UK and Israel,  the vaccines do not protect more or prevent deaths for people exposed to the delta (formerly called "Indian") variant.

End of Off topic

The Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad already expressed its interest in building 22350 frigates.

So it is possible that severnaya verf will finish building the frigates which construction already started and then will move to the larger 22350M, while Yantar will build a new serie (4 ships or more) of 22350, and Amur shipyard will instead continue the large corvettes series (20380 class).

Long term effects of coronavirus are far more devastating. Serious cases result in permanently increased risk of heart attack or lower lung capacity. Also whatever chances of complications there are, the chance of serious pneumonia, cytokine storm and heart inflammation is far higher with a coronavirus infection.


Don't you find it interesting that when people make decisiones regarding stuff like loans or investment, theyre far more likely to read information from financial experts rather than conspiracy internet sites or a random nobody, than they're willing to research analyses of health experts regarding vaccines or or other treatment?

Also regarding side effects, 99% of the time, there isnt any detailed scientifically rigorous explanation regarding how or why side effects are possible. Its just "see, da evil kikes made the vaccine so it bad, see random kike on MSM say go vaccinate yourself so vaccine bad" in the west, and in russia its "haha putin is evil and he says vaccine good, so vaccine bad".

Anyway these posts should go to off topic.

GarryB wrote:
If you look at the Soviet Navy the Frigates were the Krivaks which generally had half the main missile fire power of the Destroyers... four large missiles for Krivak compared with 8 for Sovremmeny and Udaloy... so essentially it was a big corvette with better endurance and better guns.

.

Krivak with 3500 tons a corvette ??? what is a "big corvette" ??
an then, a Buyan-M with 900 t., what is that ?? a rowboat ?


Well, I am amused by the modern classification of ships that they want to impose.
In my country, Aegis 6200-ton anti-aircraft destroyer is called a "frigate" so as not to appear aggressive.


The corvette was a small and light ship with less than 20 guns, the frigate between 20 and 60, and the ship of the line more than 60.
There were ships of the line with two bridges 60 to about 90 and three bridges about 90-120. (In my country "Santisima Trinidad" had 4 bridges and 140 guns, was sunk in Trafalgar in 1805)

In modern times the corvette was a coastal vessel of between 500 and 1500 as a very, very high limit.
The frigate was a 1500 to 2500 or few more as much, escort ship with anti-submarine orientation. In WWII they were called Escort Destroyer "DE"
The destroyers were more than 3000t. and with a much higher speed and armament (30-35 knots)


Of course, all of these classifications change with changes in shipbuilding.
However, there is a way of classifying that does not change, which is that of the officers who command these boats.

The ships are divided into three ranks:

Corvettes are 3rd rank ships. His captain is a third rank Navy Captain, in the USA I think he is called "Lieutenant Commander", in my country he is simply called "Corvette Captain"

Frigates are 2nd rank ships, their captain is a second rank Navy captain. In the USA it is "Comander", in my country it is simply "Frigate Captain", equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel

The Destroyers and superiors are 1st rank ships, their captain is a first rank Navy captain, in the USA he is simply called "Captain", in my country "Captain of Navio" (Ship of the Line), equivalent to the rank of Colonel.



So what is the classification that Russia gives to the «Steregushchiy» class according to its military potential ????

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B0_20380

the project 20380 (20385) of the «Steregushchiy» type are ..... patrol ships of the 2nd rank with guided missile weapons for the near and far sea zones...

Of course with 2250 tons, 27 knots, her armament and her mission, she is a 2nd rank ship, therefore she is a frigate, as is logical and normal. Her captain is a Frigate Captain ("Commander" or NATO OF-4)

I think these ships come to fill the gap left by the Krivak with their premature retreat, therefore it is the normal gap for the Frigates.


Besides that, the "Frigates" of the 22350 class are classified as 1st rank ships, therefore with their 5400 tons almost 30 knots and their armament, Russia actually considers them destroyers.
And from what it seems, they come to fill the gap with the premature withdrawal of the Sovremennyy destroyers, of which only 3 of about 17 remain, and even so, they hardly sail.

M55R CODAG engines for Admiral Isakov has been delivered to Severnaya Verf.

After installing Golovko's engines last December or early January, the one of the M55R CODAG engines for Admiral Isakov has been delivered to Severnaya Verf.

M55R is composed of the UEC Saturn M90FR Gas Turbine engine, Zvezda PO55 Gearbox, and Kolomna 10D49 Diesel engine.

Source - Twitter: Granger@GrangerE04117

AMCXXL wrote:

Corvettes are 3rd rank ships. His captain is a third rank Navy Captain, in the USA I think he is called "Lieutenant Commander", in my country he is simply called "Corvette Captain"

Frigates are 2nd rank ships, their captain is a second rank Navy captain. In the USA it is "Comander", in my country it is simply "Frigate Captain", equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel

The Destroyers and superiors are 1st rank ships, their captain is a first rank Navy captain, in the USA he is simply called "Captain", in my country "Captain of Navio" (Ship of the Line), equivalent to the rank of Colonel.

Quite correct. Also some very small vessels can be commanded by Captain-Lieutenant's (Captain) or even Senior Lieutenants (First Lieutenant)

The Captain 3rd Rank is equivalent to the rank of Major.

The caveat here is that from memory, any post can be assigned to either someone of the required rank, or the rank above it. At least by Russian military regulations.

So a frigate can be commanded by a Captain 2nd Rank, but also by a Captain 1st Rank.

flamming_python wrote:

AMCXXL wrote:

Corvettes are 3rd rank ships. His captain is a third rank Navy Captain, in the USA I think he is called "Lieutenant Commander", in my country he is simply called "Corvette Captain"

Frigates are 2nd rank ships, their captain is a second rank Navy captain. In the USA it is "Comander", in my country it is simply "Frigate Captain", equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel

The Destroyers and superiors are 1st rank ships, their captain is a first rank Navy captain, in the USA he is simply called "Captain", in my country "Captain of Navio" (Ship of the Line), equivalent to the rank of Colonel.

Quite correct. Also some very small vessels can be commanded by Captain-Lieutenant's (Captain) or even Senior Lieutenants (First Lieutenant)

The Captain 3rd Rank is equivalent to the rank of Major.

The caveat here is that from memory, any post can be assigned to either someone of the required rank, or the rank above it. At least by Russian military regulations.

So a frigate can be commanded by a Captain 2nd Rank, but also by a Captain 1st Rank.

The commanding officer of a Gorshkov frigates is a captain 1rank ( capitano di vascello in italian ranks, equivalent to army colonel, instead of a captain 2 rank) probably also because they are the most modern and capable surface ships in Russian navy and because there are not many larger ships in service.


If I am not mistaken the commanding officer of an American Burke class destroyer is a commander (equivalent of a captain second rank in Russian navy, capitano di fregata), but that is possibly because they have much more large surface ships than Russia and they do not want too many people in the highest rank below flag officers.

Eventually it is possible than if in the future they will have more gorshkov M, very large hamphibious ships (the >8k displacement modified Ivan gren) and helicopter carriers, some of the basic 22350 could be commanded by a captain second rank.

P.S.

Are 22800 Corvettes and 22160 patrol ships commanded by a captain 3rd rank?