TOR Air Defence system

Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Experience shows that the TorM2 or the marine variant is simply better than PanzirM and other things. It's also significantly more expensive. Better radar that Panzir will never have. Latest Russian CPU hardware etc. Best rocket power and best training. Therefore damn expensive.

A TorM system should function as a Mini Sam system in the future. TorM2U as a center system with a link to S-300 / S-400 / Buk / local PanzirM etc. and a link to a system like TorSM with small missiles but 16 to 32 for small drones. But the better detection of drones that illuminate a target is very important.

As an export weapon, PanzirM is ok for those who need a lot of defense. It is also about costs. TorM2 is important for protecting high value targets. That should only go to loyal, safe countries and much more to your own army. Production needs to be increased and the number of systems increased significantly and quickly. See Karabakh conflict. See Lakatia Base and the drone danger there. PanzirM is demonstrably suboptimal there.

TorM2 is like the Mig-31BM, S-400/500 and R-77M1 the most important system protecting Russia. Every ruble must flow into these systems and their development.

TOR is as much a lame duck as Pantsir as you throw them in the open and alone. Same for Most drones.

TOR is as much a lame duck as Pantsir as you throw them in the open and alone. Same for Most drones.

You could say the same about any weapon system used incorrectly by retards... they can be used on their own, which if fine if the enemy as is incompetent as you are, but in Russian service it operates as a battery in an IADS and there really isn't an air defence system in its class that even comes close to it.

Name a western equivalent.

https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

If they had used it earlier and always kept it active. I say so, the only effective means is Tor. Syria also needs Tor!
Russia has to ramp up Tor production and always hang a second VLC on the back for more missiles.

medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

A good article from a very competent and knowledgeable military analyst (with informations well beyond those present in public available sources).

As said more times the presence of even only a pair of batteries of export Тор-М2КМ or Панцирь-С1 in the territory of self-proclaimed Artsakh Republic would have been even a real overkill in comparison with the UAV fleet of Azerbaijan.

The problem is that unfortunately the bulk of the conflict was not fought near Armenian border, (where all those downing happened in a very reduced time window in the last 10-11 days of the clash) but mostly in the southern sector, where the already feeble and largely outdated Artsakh air defenses was almost completely absent and where almost the totality of the UAV losses of Azerbaijan was represented by those downed by Iranian air defenses when those drones operated too close to southern border.

This, togheter with wode numerical and technical superiority in mechanized forces by part of Azeri forces, allowed Azerbaijani first echelon to proceed relatively unhindered up to the Şuşa corridor (where them was repulsed with heavy losses bu the Artsakh defence forces ) and that allowed the reconnaissance and special forces operation (the real master piece of the war) that resulted in the conquest of the city of Şuşa to happen.

The only success of the defending Artsakh Forces in the air defense department was achieved by the two batteries of Оса-АКМ deployed in the Stepanakert area.

Naturally also В. Мураховский as i had already said in the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war thread, confirm that the resuming of operation of Azerbaijan's UAV, after theirs complete stop for 4-5 days at cause of Поле-21 EW systems (in those days Azerbaijani UAVs found themselves entrapped in the area of coverage of Поле-21 and several was lost) not happened in the area defended by the system by merely changing theirs area of patrol and operations 25 km within Azerbaijani territory after having integrating the UAV EW database to recognise Поле-21's emission so to avoid to be effectively entrapped in area where it was impossible for them to escape.

This is VERY different from the declaration of some scarcely technically informed military official, that saying that Azerbaijani UAVs had resumed the activity in the conflict area after 5 days of stop and a technical modification, had let someone to believe that those UAVs was operating after a minor upgrade quietly in the area of action of Поле-21 system

Some sort of wheeled trailer mounted rack system that holds vertically arranged missiles ready for launch that could be co-located with TOR batteries would be an interesting way of increasing the number of ready to fire missiles.

Smaller lighter cheaper missiles used together to deal with drones that don't require such long range or such a big warhead would be valuable too with the TOR battery scanning the air space and determining what each target would require in terms of missile performance.

These Bulat laser beam riding mini Kornet missiles together with Kornets would be interesting especially in terms of cost, but then a 57mm gun armed vehicle or a vehicle with 30mm cannon firing laser detonated rounds would also be rather valuable for dealing with smaller and lighter and more fragile drones...

Together with jammers and EW devices this sort of problem is going to require a range of different solutions that each can cover different types of problem hopefully in a way that means something can be used to defeat the target no matter what the target and of course part of the management of the air defence system will be to determine which is the most simple and cost effective way of dealing with each threat as it presents itself.

A target 10km away might be better engaged with a super high speed missile like SOSNA that gets there in 12 seconds, or it might not have any cover to hide behind so a Kornet can take its time and fly out and hit it after 30 seconds of flight... it really depends on the price of the missile and the situation.

Your defence might have an outpost there and a guy might be able to hit that drone with a shotgun blast for all we know...

Mindstorm wrote:

medo wrote:https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/5998978.html

В сложившейся обстановке единственным эффективным средством огневого поражения БЛА у Армении стали немногочисленные подразделения «Тор-М2КМ». В отсутствие внешнего целеуказания и централизованного управления противовоздушным боем они были вынуждены действовать автономно, в рассредоточенных боевых порядках мелких подразделений (взвод, батарея). Во взаимодействии с системами РЭБ зенитно-ракетные комплексы «Тор-М2КМ» добились существенных результатов: за последние две недели боевых действий среднесуточные потери БЛА составили 6-8 единиц, а иногда и больше. Расчетами ЗРК «Тор-М2КМ», в результате боевых действий было уничтожено свыше 60 воздушных целей, в том числе шесть БЛА Bayraktar TB2, при этом расход зенитных управляемых ракет на одну цель был с коэффициентом 1,1-1,2. Применение комплекса РЭБ «Поле-21» привело к снижению интенсивности вылетов оперативной и тактической авиации ВВС Азербайджана примерно в 1,5 раза, а боевых вылетов БЛА и барражирующих боеприпасов – в 2 раза. При этом зоны барражирования БЛА были смещены вглубь территории Азербайджана на 10-25 км от линии боевого соприкосновения.

In the current situation, the only effective means of fire destruction of UAVs in Armenia were the few Tor-M2KM units. In the absence of external target designation and centralized control of anti-aircraft combat, they were forced to act autonomously, in dispersed combat formations of small units (platoon, battery). In cooperation with electronic warfare systems, the Tor-M2KM anti-aircraft missile systems have achieved significant results: over the past two weeks of hostilities, the average daily losses of UAVs amounted to 6-8 units, and sometimes even more. The calculations of the Tor-M2KM air defense system, as a result of the hostilities, destroyed over 60 air targets, including six Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, while the consumption of anti-aircraft guided missiles per target was 1.1-1.2. The use of the "Pole-21" electronic warfare system led to a decrease in the intensity of sorties of the operational and tactical aviation of the Azerbaijani Air Force by about 1.5 times, and combat sorties of UAVs and loitering ammunition - 2 times. At the same time, the UAV patrol zones were displaced deep into the territory of Azerbaijan at 10-25 km from the line of contact.

Considering, that Armenia have only 1 battery of Tor-M2KM, it is actually good result to shot down more than 60 enemy UAVs, including 6 TB2. They were working as single autonomous vehicles and not networked as a unit to protect each other. Anyway, Tor is proved UAV killer.

A good article from a very competent and knowledgeable military analyst (with informations well beyond those present in public available sources).

As said more times the presence of even only a pair of batteries of export Тор-М2КМ or Панцирь-С1 in the territory of self-proclaimed Artsakh Republic would have been even a real overkill in comparison with the UAV fleet of Azerbaijan.

The problem is that unfortunately the bulk of the conflict was not fought near Armenian border, (where all those downing happened in a very reduced time window in the last 10-11 days of the clash) but mostly in the southern sector, where the already feeble and largely outdated Artsakh air defenses was almost completely absent and where almost the totality of the UAV losses of Azerbaijan was represented by those downed by Iranian air defenses when those drones operated too close to southern border.

This, togheter with wode numerical and technical superiority in mechanized forces by part of Azeri forces, allowed Azerbaijani first echelon to proceed relatively unhindered up to the Şuşa corridor (where them was repulsed with heavy losses bu the Artsakh defence forces ) and that allowed the reconnaissance and special forces operation (the real master piece of the war) that resulted in the conquest of the city of Şuşa to happen.

The only success of the defending Artsakh Forces in the air defense department was achieved by the two batteries of Оса-АКМ deployed in the Stepanakert area.

Naturally also В. Мураховский as i had already said in the  2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war thread, confirm that the resuming of operation of Azerbaijan's UAV, after theirs complete stop for 4-5 days at cause of Поле-21 EW systems (in those days Azerbaijani UAVs found themselves entrapped in the area of coverage of Поле-21 and several was lost)  not happened in the area defended by the system by merely changing theirs area of patrol and operations 25 km within Azerbaijani territory after having integrating the UAV EW database to recognise Поле-21's emission so to avoid to be effectively entrapped in area where it was impossible for them to escape.

This is VERY different from the declaration of some scarcely technically informed military official, that saying that Azerbaijani UAVs had resumed the activity in the conflict area after 5 days of stop and a technical modification, had let someone to believe that those UAVs was operating after a minor upgrade quietly in the area of action of Поле-21 system

fascinating and awesome post!

yeah the azeri/turk propaganda is asinine. western media of course picked up on it. what most westerners dont know is we were aiding the turks/azeris and we even have RAND corporation white papers which discussed plans for this whole proxy skirmish many months in advance (https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html) the gall of these bastards they dont even hide it.

the tor complex is the single greatest shorad ever developed. it is pretty much known to be the only massively effective uav killer. nothing else comes close to it.

GarryB wrote:Some sort of wheeled trailer mounted rack system that holds vertically arranged missiles ready for launch that could be co-located with TOR batteries would be an interesting way of increasing the number of ready to fire missiles.

Smaller lighter cheaper missiles used together to deal with drones that don't require such long range or such a big warhead would be valuable too with the TOR battery scanning the air space and determining what each target would require in terms of missile performance.

These Bulat laser beam riding mini Kornet missiles together with Kornets would be interesting especially in terms of cost, but then a 57mm gun armed vehicle or a vehicle with 30mm cannon firing laser detonated rounds would also be rather valuable for dealing with smaller and lighter and more fragile drones...

Together with jammers and EW devices this sort of problem is going to require a range of different solutions that each can cover different types of problem hopefully in a way that means something can be used to defeat the target no matter what the target and of course part of the management of the air defence system will be to determine which is the most simple and cost effective way of dealing with each threat as it presents itself.

A target 10km away might be better engaged with a super high speed missile like SOSNA that gets there in 12 seconds, or it might not have any cover to hide behind so a Kornet can take its time and fly out and hit it after 30 seconds of flight... it really depends on the price of the missile and the situation.

Your defence might have an outpost there and a guy might be able to hit that drone with a shotgun blast for all we know...

You can take a Tor-M2DT system and hang a trailer on the back with the PanzirM2 on Panzir-SA based on the DT-30PM, without Panzir radar, with a marine PanzirM cannon. So you have a team of three vehicles. Only the loader would have to be adjusted for both. With this you have covered near, medium and long areas.

Such a combo would be nearly insurmountable without a massive satiety attack.

Russia defines conceptual design of new missile for Tor-M2 anti-aircraft system

Ground Forces Commander-in-Chief Army General Oleg Salyukov said in an interview with the Rossiyskaya Gazeta daily in October that Russia was developing a small-size missile for the Tor-M2 surface-to-air missile system to fight tactical drones

https://tass.com/defense/1252147

The Ministry of Defense has decided to arm the air defense units of the Eastern Military District with the Tor-M2 air defense system.

https://en.topwar.ru/180917-zenitnye-raketnye-kompleksy-maloj-dalnosti-tor-m2-prikrojut-dalnij-vostok.html

"Thor" is appropriate here: the Western Military District is updating air defense systems.The modernized air defense systems will be able to shoot down not only airplanes and helicopters, but also high-precision missiles, drones and aerial bombs


The Western Military District (ZVO) will be re-equipped with the latest Tor-M2 short-range air defense systems. They are especially effective against modern aerial threats and are focused on war against a high-tech adversary with cruise missiles, attack drones and guided aerial bombs. The complex automatically detects a target in any weather, day and night, takes it for tracking and destroys it. The operator only needs to press the control button. According to experts, such air defense systems will radically strengthen the air defense capabilities of the Ground Forces in the central region of Russia.
Big contract

A fundamental decision was made to re-equip the Western Military District with the Tor-M2 air defense system, sources in the defense department told Izvestia. The complexes were transferred to the 6th separate tank brigade in Mulino near Nizhny Novgorod. Earlier, as part of the tests, the ZVO already received a batch of experienced air defense systems, which entered service with the 1st Guards Tank Army.

The Ministry of Defense and the Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol signed a long-term contract for the production until 2027 of a large batch of Tor-M2 in the presence of President Vladimir Putin. The total cost of the contract will be about 100 billion rubles. Part of the air defense system will be released in a special, arctic version.
"Thor" is not a gift: the Far East will be protected by "anti-aircraft guns"
Unique complexes will arrive in the air defense units of the district

Under the previous state contract, starting in 2017, the Ground Forces have already received six Tor-M2 divisions. They re-equipped the anti-aircraft missile regiments of the 4th Kantemirovskaya tank and 150th motorized rifle divisions. In addition, they entered service with air defense units in Kaliningrad and the Chechen Republic.

“The Tor air defense complex was specially created to protect troops in combat and field conditions from high-precision weapons,” military expert Viktor Murakhovsky told Izvestia. - It can work on such targets as anti-radar missiles, guided and guided aerial bombs, cruise missiles. In this area, the complex is one of the best in the world, if not the best. Of course, it can also be used against conventional air attack weapons - helicopters and tactical aviation aircraft. "Thor" has already gone through several stages of modernization. The capabilities of the current version of Tor-M2 have increased even more.

When the first drone raid of militants was carried out on the Russian base of Khmeimim in Syria, it turned out that the available air defense systems did not provide an effective fight against them. Then the Tor-M2U battery was transferred there, and it successfully solved the tasks of fire destruction during all subsequent drone raids, including group ones. Now the newest version of "Tor-M2" is being supplied to combined arms formations and units. In the future, they will also be in the marines and coastal troops. According to the staff structure, the division should have five air defense missile systems, and the brigade should have four. The delivery program is being successfully implemented, and the army will be reliably protected from all high-precision means of attack, including drones and guided or guided bombs, the expert said.

Full article: https://sawwnhdac36x4app5mw7rkbhgy--iz-ru.translate.goog/1144445/anton-lavrov-roman-kretcul/tor-zdes-umesten-zapadnyi-voennyi-okrug-obnovliaet-sredstva-pvo

Very good. The only system protects near 100% against each air threat. Syria clearly showed. Much more systems should be built and only to be delivered to countries such as Syria, Iran and the closest allies.

The system must be the highest priority in research and development. Navy, ground troops and all important objects must be protected with it.

Here, the budget may not be shortened here. Rather more than less and if possible, much more.

Production line

Pantsir and ToR intercept a large number of fast moving threats with high hit probability.Including literally mortar shells. With some of them (namely pantsir) only getting destroyed when caught out of ammo and when confronted by obviously larger forces in terms if how much cost was used.
The media : russian air defense bad.

Iron dome: works against slow easily predictible rockets.
The media starts wanking it.

In Syria used by the Syrians and in Libya used by Libyan forces these vehicles were used individually and with not that much support, which is nothing like the way the Russians use them or intend them to be used.

I am glad the west is showing photos of damaged Pantsir vehicles and claiming they are crap, because if they realised how good they were they might have the brains to copy them which would make their defences stronger and the job of Russian drones much harder.

The irony is that with drones numbers makes things harder so the more drones you use the more difficult it is for the defender... but most western drones are not even very cheap... especially the bigger ones, while the smaller ones are not so effective as weapons or in recon missions.

In comparison the Russians are developing a whole range of specialist weapons for their drones to use and will likely make them in large numbers... something western forces of HATO or the US are not really prepared for...

So much space on any ship for such VLS. Thry really need to integrate this VLS on Gorshkov and other corvettes they build. It's a fantastic weapon.

Indeed, that is a single row pack of four missiles, the vehicle in the background carries four of those packs for 16 missiles ready to fire.

Imagine a circle of 8 launch tubes that size that can revolve around with a single hatch for one missile tube position so each launch the circle of launch tubes moves the next tube with a missile to the hatch so it can launch.

Think about the machinery and motors needed to make that work... and with 8 of these circles of 8 launch tubes you have 8 circles with empty middles and space around them so that those missile tubes can rotate to the launch hatch to fire.

Take those 8 launch tubes out and replace them with these launch bins... that will probably triple the number of missiles you could have in the same space and the only mechanism you would need is to open each cells hatch door.

But those old 8 tube launchers were for the old TOR missile of which the old system could only carry 8 ready to launch missiles, so with the new missiles double the capacity.

And the new shorter ranged missiles for use against small light targets like drones you could probably double the number again... note with Pantsir the new anti drone missiles could fit four missiles to a tube, so just doubling it again is being conservative... the normal TOR missile is about 170kgs with a 15kg HE warhead, for smaller more fragile targets like drones you could go with a 5kg warhead instead which makes the entire missile much smaller and lighter and more compact.

Another advantage of TOR is that the missiles don't occupy deck space 5 levels deep so on a big ship you can located them near the sides where  the curve of the hull means you can't put big missiles.

The rack with 4 missiles on the left are the old missiles. On the right side are the new ones.

They look similar in length and only slightly slimmer but in individual launch tubes.

In fact the new launch tubes look like something the Mi-28NM or Ka-52 could carry...

The space saved in the newer TOR probably includes more compact electronics that would free up internal space for the double missile load... something that would also apply to the naval version too.

Better pic of the new missiles/containers.

The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.

The TOR-M2 version carries 16 missiles of the newer type (9M338).

The older original missiles can only be carried 8 at a time.

The newer missile has improved performance and is smaller so it can carry more.

I have only ever seen that quad single row missile type arrangement that is loaded four missiles at once.

They mentioned another new missile they were developing that is even smaller and is optimised for shorter ranged engagements of lighter targets for which the 15kg warhead would be overkill.

The suggestion was that the new missiles might be long and slim like the new Pantsir anti drone missiles and fit four to a tube as they do to help deal with large numbers of drones in a single attack.