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lyle6One of the planned modernizations for the Tor system is to enable the capability to act as tactical controller for lower tier short range air defenses, and maybe even the actual close combat elements themselves. The idea is to leverage upon the extensive capabilities of the Tor's radar systems to provide detection and target acquisition for shooters who don't have the means to to detect the target on their own.
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TOR Air Defence system
lyle6- Posts : 2587
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Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E- Posts : 737
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Hole wrote:
Better pic of the new missiles/containers.
The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.
Is it possible to accommodate another 2x8 starter on the vehicle? Or a pure pendant with 4 times 8 starters?
Broski- Posts : 772
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Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Hole wrote:
Better pic of the new missiles/containers.
The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.
Is it possible to accommodate another 2x8 starter on the vehicle? Or a pure pendant with 4 times 8 starters?
The turret has to be able to rotate 360 degrees on its axis, I don't see where you'd be able to fit another 8 missiles.
thegopnik- Posts : 1825
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I have seen that missile before Alamo https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/sukhoi-pak-fa.8276/page-234 (see gadeshi post)
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Hole- Posts : 11121
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The missiles look small but...
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Daniel_Admassu- Posts : 149
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Broski wrote:Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Hole wrote:
Better pic of the new missiles/containers.
The single body army version can hold 16 missiles too.
Is it possible to accommodate another 2x8 starter on the vehicle? Or a pure pendant with 4 times 8 starters?
The turret has to be able to rotate 360 degrees on its axis, I don't see where you'd be able to fit another 8 missiles.
I have always wandered about TOR why the missile turret needs to rotate along with the radars. Is there something to do with the alignment of the attitude correction thrusters on the missile tips? Otherwise they could just stack the search and engagement radars on the same boom and let them rotate independent of the turret. That way you get a simpler system and the opportunity to pack more ammunition.
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PapaDragon- Posts : 13472
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Rotating the missiles is the simplest way to fit them all in the relatively small vehicle, that is all there is to it
Isos- Posts : 11601
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They can use the concept artic variant if they really need more missiles. Just attach another launcher vehicle on the back.
Cheap missiles should be carried in huge number. 8 was very low. 16 is better. 48 would be amazing.
But don't forget they usually work in group so it is a big work to make them run out of ammo.
Cheap missiles should be carried in huge number. 8 was very low. 16 is better. 48 would be amazing.
But don't forget they usually work in group so it is a big work to make them run out of ammo.
GarryB- Posts : 40539
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The radars of the TOR system were very expensive for their time and are still very capable and not cheap now.
I agree that having phased array radar antenna for search and tracking that can be fixed and therefore electronically scan the airspace rather than rely on mechanical rotation would be a good solution... especially if it can be located in a raiseable platform on a cherry picker type arm to give it a good field of view and better radar horizon for low flying threats.
As mentioned carrying missiles in a trailer of significant depth would allow enormous numbers of missiles to be carried in trailers that will be quite tall but not enormous and certainly not super heavy.
A naval model as you might guess could have enormous numbers of missiles all packed together as well with deck penetration only requiring one deck at most.
A shelterised version could have mutliple trailers linked in a train like chain that could be parked all over an area that needs protecting like an airfield.
An airfield that is 3-5km long is a significantly difficult problem to protect, but with high resolution AESA tracking and search radars, you could place the vehicle in the centre near the control tower perhaps and have trailers parked all around the airfield connected to the system so the closest launch bin can be used to engage incoming threats.
A truck trailer could have enormous numbers of ready to fire missiles... Or even better... modify a shipping container to take them because equipment to move and store and handle shipping containers is already in service as standard equipment around the world... the new small ships able to carry shipping containers could have a 40 ft container with maybe 200 ready to launch missiles, using the ships radar for detection and tracking...
I agree that having phased array radar antenna for search and tracking that can be fixed and therefore electronically scan the airspace rather than rely on mechanical rotation would be a good solution... especially if it can be located in a raiseable platform on a cherry picker type arm to give it a good field of view and better radar horizon for low flying threats.
As mentioned carrying missiles in a trailer of significant depth would allow enormous numbers of missiles to be carried in trailers that will be quite tall but not enormous and certainly not super heavy.
A naval model as you might guess could have enormous numbers of missiles all packed together as well with deck penetration only requiring one deck at most.
A shelterised version could have mutliple trailers linked in a train like chain that could be parked all over an area that needs protecting like an airfield.
An airfield that is 3-5km long is a significantly difficult problem to protect, but with high resolution AESA tracking and search radars, you could place the vehicle in the centre near the control tower perhaps and have trailers parked all around the airfield connected to the system so the closest launch bin can be used to engage incoming threats.
A truck trailer could have enormous numbers of ready to fire missiles... Or even better... modify a shipping container to take them because equipment to move and store and handle shipping containers is already in service as standard equipment around the world... the new small ships able to carry shipping containers could have a 40 ft container with maybe 200 ready to launch missiles, using the ships radar for detection and tracking...
medo- Posts : 4343
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Agree. Next evolution of Tor could be without turning turret, but with four AESA radar antennas to cover 360o and to search and track targets. It already have vertically launched missiles and with fixed turret, number could increase.
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Hole- Posts : 11121
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These missiles are not cheap and the purpose of Tor is the air defence of a small fighting unit at the front. For that they need a lot of vehicles to stretch them along their own forces. I doubt that they will more then double the number of missiles in a new version, even with fixed radar antennas.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Tor missiles are radio guided and they are quite cheap comparing to IR or ARH guided ones. With fixed turret, you don't need a ring and you could place another casette with 8 missiles, so 24 together. This is quite a lot of missiles.
lyle6- Posts : 2587
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Its actually 32. With a square you can fit to a circle you have 16, but if make that entire circle into a square the area is doubled, so 32.medo wrote:Tor missiles are radio guided and they are quite cheap comparing to IR or ARH guided ones. With fixed turret, you don't need a ring and you could place another casette with 8 missiles, so 24 together. This is quite a lot of missiles.
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Daniel_Admassu- Posts : 149
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lyle6 wrote:Its actually 32. With a square you can fit to a circle you have 16, but if make that entire circle into a square the area is doubled, so 32.medo wrote:Tor missiles are radio guided and they are quite cheap comparing to IR or ARH guided ones. With fixed turret, you don't need a ring and you could place another casette with 8 missiles, so 24 together. This is quite a lot of missiles.
Correct. Good to know someone remembers their geometry. That is of course the inscribed vs circumscribing square.
But then again if the rotation requirement is ditched, why a square at all and not a rectangle, depending on available space, for even more tubes?
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GarryB- Posts : 40539
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With four AESA antenna arrays pointing in all directions at one time a 360 degree search scan can be done in miliseconds... it is just a case of turning on the transmitter elements and listening for returns... because the system does not need to rotate at all it will be lighter and cheaper and simpler.
With four arrays it wont be cheap, but you could save money by having Reloading vehicles with ready to launch missiles.
The terminology for the system is wonky because it is not a TEL... transporter, erector, launcher... because there is no need to elevate or orient the missiles for launch, but each vehicle could easily be designed to have large numbers of missiles because as mentioned without the turret ring it could have a fixed upper structure that is the full width of the hull...
This system has generally been tracked because it is intended to operate with all Russian Armoured forces, both Motor Rifle and Tank forces... each of which had two air defence battalions (I think)... Missile, which is TOR but used to be OSA, and gun and missile which originally was Shilka and SA-9 or SA-13 (strela-1 or Strela-10), but currently is Tunguska with gun and missile combined.
A Wheeled version with wheels could have a wider hull in the centre with even more missiles to include the area the tracks take up on the current model... perhaps the 6 or 4 wheeled model of Typhoon could be used?
Enormous potential because the missiles are excellent and relatively cheap and simple missiles.
The System is expensive because it had expensive 3D tracking radars in the mid 1980s... which was really something, but the missiles are relatively cheap and they like to use a lot of them in exercises. Their performance in combat and at airshows has been excellent AFAIK.
With four arrays it wont be cheap, but you could save money by having Reloading vehicles with ready to launch missiles.
The terminology for the system is wonky because it is not a TEL... transporter, erector, launcher... because there is no need to elevate or orient the missiles for launch, but each vehicle could easily be designed to have large numbers of missiles because as mentioned without the turret ring it could have a fixed upper structure that is the full width of the hull...
This system has generally been tracked because it is intended to operate with all Russian Armoured forces, both Motor Rifle and Tank forces... each of which had two air defence battalions (I think)... Missile, which is TOR but used to be OSA, and gun and missile which originally was Shilka and SA-9 or SA-13 (strela-1 or Strela-10), but currently is Tunguska with gun and missile combined.
A Wheeled version with wheels could have a wider hull in the centre with even more missiles to include the area the tracks take up on the current model... perhaps the 6 or 4 wheeled model of Typhoon could be used?
Enormous potential because the missiles are excellent and relatively cheap and simple missiles.
The System is expensive because it had expensive 3D tracking radars in the mid 1980s... which was really something, but the missiles are relatively cheap and they like to use a lot of them in exercises. Their performance in combat and at airshows has been excellent AFAIK.
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E- Posts : 737
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Is gate now air board or troop protection? Syria is mainly used to protect Russian bases. It is the only system which is almost 100% reliable.
Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?
Tor would have a much higher priority in procurement. And why will not it hand over to Syria and the SAA?
Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?
Tor would have a much higher priority in procurement. And why will not it hand over to Syria and the SAA?
Broski- Posts : 772
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Tor is tracked, Pantsir is wheeled. The Aerospace version of Tor will be the 42S6 Morfey, currently under development.Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Is gate now air board or troop protection? Syria is mainly used to protect Russian bases. It is the only system which is almost 100% reliable.
Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?
x_54_u43- Posts : 336
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Broski wrote:Tor is tracked, Pantsir is wheeled. The Aerospace version of Tor will be the 42S6 Morfey, currently under development.Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Is gate now air board or troop protection? Syria is mainly used to protect Russian bases. It is the only system which is almost 100% reliable.
Iran uses it mainly to protect the most important facilities. Other countries make this way too. Why is PANTSIR-S or SM Air Defense and Tor Troop Protection?
Morfey was/is entirely new system with new missile, though it's chances of seeing service are very slim, desire for it apparently was not very high.
The missile it was meant to use(9M100(?)) are easily quadpacked onto S-350/400/500 and can use their sensors and offboard ones as well.
Plus developments of 57mm guided shells changed things around quite a bit in terms of gun vs missile for mass target interception.
GarryB- Posts : 40539
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It is quite complicated.
TOR is tracked and designed to operate with armoured units along with the Tunguska which has Pantsir like missiles and guns for the role.
A shelterised TOR can be used to protect airfields and large structures and its optimisation for shooting down munitions like HARM and guided bombs makes it rather effective and powerful for swatting down even small threats, but it lacks that last line of defence... automatic cannon.
New missiles on the way like Pine which is a short range cheap laser beam riding high speed missile, together with the 9M100 Morfei missile which is part of the S-350 system but also likely a missile on its own that replaces SA-9 and SA-13 type missiles too...
The Russians have layer upon layer of missile and system to protect their ground forces with Igla-S and Verba MANPADS with proximity fuses for tiny targets including drones and ATGMS, and these new systems to further protect ground forces, and of course most of their ATGMs can also be used against air targets like the Vikhr and Kornet and the new Bulat light missile.
The new LMURS in a vertical launch system with optical lock on after launch might be related to Morfei or they could be completely different weapons... it is going to be very dangerous to be an air or ground target near Russian forces and it is only getting worse with air burst 30mm shells and new 57mm rounds too.
Pine might make it redundant because its high speed and automated tracking system make it rather cheap and easy to use while the sophisticated guidance of the morfei might mean it is not so cheap but better for self defence in a complex environment.
The Morfei is the short range missile in the S-350 system which is likely to be adopted at sea and for air force units using Redut and S-350 respectively as a compliment to Pantsir air defence systems.
The 57mm guns and 30mm guns with air burst ammo will be useful for Air Force and Naval use but I think the guided 57mm rounds will only be used against manouvering targets whereas missiles like TOR and Pantsir will be first choice use against manouvering targets and air burst 30mm and 57mm rounds will be used against hovering drones or targets in level flight like glide bombs and drones and cruise missiles.
TOR is tracked and designed to operate with armoured units along with the Tunguska which has Pantsir like missiles and guns for the role.
A shelterised TOR can be used to protect airfields and large structures and its optimisation for shooting down munitions like HARM and guided bombs makes it rather effective and powerful for swatting down even small threats, but it lacks that last line of defence... automatic cannon.
New missiles on the way like Pine which is a short range cheap laser beam riding high speed missile, together with the 9M100 Morfei missile which is part of the S-350 system but also likely a missile on its own that replaces SA-9 and SA-13 type missiles too...
The Russians have layer upon layer of missile and system to protect their ground forces with Igla-S and Verba MANPADS with proximity fuses for tiny targets including drones and ATGMS, and these new systems to further protect ground forces, and of course most of their ATGMs can also be used against air targets like the Vikhr and Kornet and the new Bulat light missile.
The new LMURS in a vertical launch system with optical lock on after launch might be related to Morfei or they could be completely different weapons... it is going to be very dangerous to be an air or ground target near Russian forces and it is only getting worse with air burst 30mm shells and new 57mm rounds too.
Morfey was/is entirely new system with new missile, though it's chances of seeing service are very slim, desire for it apparently was not very high.
The missile it was meant to use(9M100(?)) are easily quadpacked onto S-350/400/500 and can use their sensors and offboard ones as well.
Pine might make it redundant because its high speed and automated tracking system make it rather cheap and easy to use while the sophisticated guidance of the morfei might mean it is not so cheap but better for self defence in a complex environment.
The Morfei is the short range missile in the S-350 system which is likely to be adopted at sea and for air force units using Redut and S-350 respectively as a compliment to Pantsir air defence systems.
The 57mm guns and 30mm guns with air burst ammo will be useful for Air Force and Naval use but I think the guided 57mm rounds will only be used against manouvering targets whereas missiles like TOR and Pantsir will be first choice use against manouvering targets and air burst 30mm and 57mm rounds will be used against hovering drones or targets in level flight like glide bombs and drones and cruise missiles.
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Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
4h
As expected, Kalashnikov's Mytishchi Machine-Building Plant SKKSh-586 chassis was designed as a wheeled-chassis variant for carrying the Tor-M2K SHORAD, instead of the Belarusian MZKT-6922 or KamAZ-63501 chassis. 96/
https://t.me/vestnikpvo/6442
https://instagram.com/p/CETftTrHCtL/
@RALee85
·
4h
As expected, Kalashnikov's Mytishchi Machine-Building Plant SKKSh-586 chassis was designed as a wheeled-chassis variant for carrying the Tor-M2K SHORAD, instead of the Belarusian MZKT-6922 or KamAZ-63501 chassis. 96/
https://t.me/vestnikpvo/6442
https://instagram.com/p/CETftTrHCtL/
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GarryB- Posts : 40539
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You can see the turret ring on the new vehicle so it wont carry any more missiles that the current model.
Obviously increasing the number of ready to fire missiles would require a redesign of the system because with the tracking antenna just facing one direction means it needs a turret to engage targets from any direction and inside the turret ring is the only part of the vehicle with enough depth for the full length of the missile to be stowed.
Having four fixed AESA radar arrays on the vehicle facing front and back and to each side would mean no need for a rotating turret so the entire length of the vehicle could be built up to hold missiles standing vertically which would allow very large numbers to be carried... especially considering each has its own launch tube so any space on the vehicle you could fit that tube could be used to carry a ready to fire missile.
But then you have to say that perhaps with 4 to six vehicles in each battery that you can already have a tracking radar pointed in every potential direction for full coverage, so maybe splitting the jobs could be done better... having one radar vehicle with four AESA radar perhaps on an arm that can be raised up a few metres into the air for better view of low flying targets out to greater distances and having the rest of the vehicles in the force looking like those arctic tractors with two chassis with enormous numbers of cheap simple ready to fire missiles...
You could have wheeled versions of those arctic tractors for better mobility on roads and lower costs, but still lots of missiles, and you could design it so trailers can be located around a large area target to be protected like an airfield with missiles positioned all around the base ready to launch.
The naval equivalent is the vertical launch tubes that can be tied down on the deck of ships ready to fire....
Obviously increasing the number of ready to fire missiles would require a redesign of the system because with the tracking antenna just facing one direction means it needs a turret to engage targets from any direction and inside the turret ring is the only part of the vehicle with enough depth for the full length of the missile to be stowed.
Having four fixed AESA radar arrays on the vehicle facing front and back and to each side would mean no need for a rotating turret so the entire length of the vehicle could be built up to hold missiles standing vertically which would allow very large numbers to be carried... especially considering each has its own launch tube so any space on the vehicle you could fit that tube could be used to carry a ready to fire missile.
But then you have to say that perhaps with 4 to six vehicles in each battery that you can already have a tracking radar pointed in every potential direction for full coverage, so maybe splitting the jobs could be done better... having one radar vehicle with four AESA radar perhaps on an arm that can be raised up a few metres into the air for better view of low flying targets out to greater distances and having the rest of the vehicles in the force looking like those arctic tractors with two chassis with enormous numbers of cheap simple ready to fire missiles...
You could have wheeled versions of those arctic tractors for better mobility on roads and lower costs, but still lots of missiles, and you could design it so trailers can be located around a large area target to be protected like an airfield with missiles positioned all around the base ready to launch.
The naval equivalent is the vertical launch tubes that can be tied down on the deck of ships ready to fire....
Hole- Posts : 11121
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Transloaders
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GarryB- Posts : 40539
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Nice photos Hole.... they show the two different setups... the top one with individual launch tubes each containing one missile, where each launcher can carry 16 individual missile tubes for a total of 16 ready to launch missiles in the top photo, while the bottom photo shows the magazine mount with four missiles which are loaded in as a pack of four missiles... two packs per launcher so 8 missiles per launcher vehicle as with the original system from the 1980s.
Interesting they still use both... perhaps the old missiles are still in production and use?
Interesting they still use both... perhaps the old missiles are still in production and use?
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Arctic "Thor": moves, shoots and swims in any climate
At the end of 2021, the Ground Forces of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation received two divisional sets of the Tor-M2 and Tor-M2DT anti-aircraft missile systems manufactured by the Izhevsk Electromechanical Plant Kupol.
Of particular interest here are anti-aircraft missile systems produced in a special Arctic version: the combat module of these systems is installed on the Vityaz two-link tracked all-terrain vehicles.
The Arctic complex "Tor-M2DT" is a representative of the "Tor" family, designed to serve in the polar region, providing control of the airspace of the Arctic and air defense of military and industrial facilities.
We learned about the practical use of the Arctic Tors in the winter of 2019, when the Russian Ministry of Defense announced the start of the use of the Northern fleet Arctic anti-aircraft missile system "Tor-M2DT". At that time, the personnel of the air defense division equipped with new complexes completed a training course at the training center and performed the first live firing at the training ground in the Astrakhan region.
The main task of the Tor-M2DT complex is to provide air defense for military formations and state and military facilities in difficult climatic conditions, at low Arctic temperatures. At the same time, the fire and reconnaissance capabilities of the Arctic complex correspond to the base "Tor-M2".
The complex detects air attack weapons at ranges up to 32 km, and can fire missiles at four of them at once. The complex is capable of intercepting small-sized air targets flying at speeds of up to 700 m/s, in any weather conditions and at any time of the day, in conditions of intense fire and radio-optical-electronic countermeasures.
It should be noted that Tor-M2DT differs from the main version of the complex by its carrier base - the combat module is placed on the chassis of the two-link tracked floating all-terrain vehicle DT-30PM-T Vityaz, capable of moving in completely off-road conditions - from the southern deserts to the snows of the Arctic.
In the Arctic complexes, cold-resistant fuels and lubricants are used, which retain their qualities at a 50-degree frost. Engineers have adapted all elements of Tor-M2DT for service in the Arctic. The developers have created conditions for effective combat work of the crew at an air temperature of minus 50-60 ° C.
The driving characteristics of the Arctic complex "Tor-M2DT" are impressive: the speed on paved roads is up to 43 km/h, on dirt roads - up to 30 km/h, on rough terrain - up to 15 km/h, afloat - up to 4 km/h.
We also note that the Vityaz all-terrain vehicle is the only vehicle in the world that can not only overcome the impenetrable spaces of the Arctic, but also swim in the icy waters of the ocean.
https://en.topwar.ru/191785-arkticheskij-tor-dvigaetsja-streljaet-i-plavaet-v-ljuboj-klimaticheskoj-obstanovke.html
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