No-one is going to drag NATO into a war with Russia.
Kiev would be desperate for that to happen, but I suspect HATO countries are not interested in joining this conflict... just look at what happened in 1914 over promises and alliances... that killed millions... and not just coloured people of the third world, millions of precious white people who are civilised and of real value to the whole world*
Reference... the whole world is:
Guilt by association propaganda boom.
Only the west, which believes its media and government anyway... so not really a win at all.
Threat of economic pain to stress test the China-Russia relationship.
Pretexts for new sanctions regimes and provocations against China.
The US had already said it was pivoting to Asia to face off with China... these new sanctions were likely cooked up a while ago waiting for a reason... real or made up to apply them... this split with the west was always coming and now the US, after trying to use Russia against China and China against Russia, thinks it might work this time around... they just need to find the right sanction to do it.
Since 1990 all the smart people who worked in the Russian departments of western universities left for other jobs because nobody cared about Russia any more... the fact that idiots and yes men are now doing the job explains why the job they are doing is so miserable... but the politicians are not noticing...
Further embarrass Russia as dependent on the Chinese.
Don't see the west rushing to cut all ties with China just now buddy, Russia is not embarrassed by having trade ties and partnerships with China... in fact they are looking to increase and improve them... can't say the same about Russian ties with the west that only the west has been trying to break, but now Russia seems to be wanting the same.
Further embarrass Russia as if the U.S is the sheriff that dictates the rules in the school yard (more so targeted at its complaint client regime allies than Russia itself, and to American allied elites in client regimes elsewhere). It's a "leadership" moment.
From the perspective outside the western world it is the US going apeshit over Russia doing something the west does all the time... not so much sheriff, more leader of a lynch mob or criminal gang boss... and even then Russia seems to be prepared to take what the US is threatening and responding in kind... which actually shows how actually toothless and weak the west really actually is against peer enemies. Their politicians simply do not realise that yet.
Which makes them look embarrassing.
Any potential sowing of discord within the Chinese elites (everyone has an opinion). All the U.S needs to do is make the topic of conversation relevant for opinions to surface within the Chinese elite, even if most of the important exchange of ideas will happen behind closed doors.
If you think threatening a Chinese person to stop trading with a neighbour they get on with is going to work, you go right ahead.
A lot of the elites in China are ill informed of geopolitics to a detailed extent, specially economic elites who respond to different incentives than security/political elites. It's nothing but a positive to stir the pot.
Even the dumbest Chinese person in a position of power in China knows when the US has done with Russia then China is next and it would be much easier for the US to do in Taiwan what they did in the Ukraine... and they would have no moral or ethical problems with doing that... no matter how many people died in the process.
Any restraint by the Chinese side to aid Russia will make the "attack on China operation" more favorable for the empire and its lackies .
After the bullshit in the Ukraine I think even India is having second thoughts about being Americas meat shield against China and they are opening talks to try to resolve their differences peacefully without spending pointless amounts of money on some stupid arms race.
Not only will US attempts to woo China make India feel stupid about joining the US train fighting China, it might make them seriously think about their long term future of always being a third world country because the US will never allow them anything better... the US does not tolerate rivals.
Thus Misconception#1: It's a desperation move by the U.S.
(laughably wrong).
Of course it is desperate... risking their new alliance with India to try to hurt Russia a bit more... they are throwing everything they have at the wall and hoping something sticks...
Desperate is the perfect word.
And it goes back to no intelligent people in the western Universities in Russian departments for advice or to prep western diplomats.
Without that they think they need to go into any discussion with Russia with a leverage or position of strength... which is not a negotiation... wonder why they fail or why the Russians don't like them.
Absolutely false. To the contrary, the U.S makes up an accusation, elevates their unilateral sanction regime to give it the aura of extra-territorial effect and threatens China to obey or else.
The US makes up an accusation which proves to be false making the US look stupid to the rest of the world where it is fully and properly reported... the west never finds out it was false and continues to think they are right... it is OK for them to be wrong... it doesn't matter really.
The Chinese stand to gain nothing that isn't lost in a bigger magnitude with the Russian side. It will simply hurt their Russia-China trade ties, as well as hurt their most important geopolitical relationship on this planet. The U.S knows what they're after, a self-defeating bullet.
Both Russia and China are reducing their use of the US dollar, and lots of other countries are too, which eventually will burst the bubble that is the US and they will either have to use their huge military to make their way or start working and earn it.
It is funny because the rest of the world were told the west is so rich and powerful because its workers are so much more productive than in the third world... what a load of crap. We are going to find out soon enough... war in Europe right now just over 100 years after WWI happened... know what happened after WWI in the world... you know... the 1920s and 1930s?
As to the report of Russia seeking military assistance from China being true or false.
1.
Russia knows China understands what they are doing but has no reason or interest to get directly involved... the same as with Syria.
"Combat Experience" lol1
Anybody that has,....stays FAR away from Ukraine.
"here is an AK and four magazines, an complimentary Stinger and Panzerfaust 3 from NATO and you are now good to go.
You hold this trench against the full millitary force of the Russian Millitary".
"what is that T-72 looking thing out there with that big box on it moving into position?".
"oh no worries, its just an TOS-1. Have Fun,i Gotta go now bye!. Slava Ukraini!".
Not just that... how will such experienced professionals tell a BMP-2 from a BMP-2, or a T-64, or an Su-25... I have never come under small arms fire but I would imagine wanting to bury my head under as much cover as I can... but what is cover... in computer games the outer wall of most houses is good cover from all sorts of enemy weapons...
All captured files Javelin anti-tank systems and other foreign weapons are being transferred to the People's militia units Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics.
Meaning they already have plenty of their own captured models to examine and test.
yep, but the fcking Murkans still lied about its range and used it as a transparent excuse to abrogate the INF treaty. Even more outrageous was that the Euro-faggot Collective echoed the murkan propaganda, even though the loss of the INF treaty seriously undermined their own security...
But the thing is that Russia has an IADS network so is in less danger than the EU is from such weapons so the only real loser is Europe.
If you want to come close to truth then you just need to assume exact opposite of western MSM and you will be on the correct path already. From there you can make valid researches for yourself to find out the closest information to truth.
The key to understanding western media... most of the allegations are based on what the west has already done and is already doing... accuse your enemy of that so when your own abuses are revealed it is OK because you already claimed they were doing it anyway. Just think the opposite... So Russians targeting Ukrainian civilians means Kievs forces are using civilians as meat shields from Russian attacks.
Russian aggression and invasion is Russia defending itself. Why are HATO forces needing to withdraw from the Ukraine if Russia is the aggressor?
As zelensky gets more desperate and Ukraine loses more troops and land the provocations will get more intense and wild. They won't stop. However NATO will never get involved. Only more weapons, money and aid will be sent along with further condemnation. That's all.
The Russians seem to have very good intel on where the fuel and ammo dumps are and seem to be dealing with them efficiently enough... it doesn't take pro russian traitors for such information... just normal Ukrainians who don't want this to continue forever like the US and EU does because despite that being bad for Russia it would also be very bad for the Ukraine too.
I always wondered what is this self-harming defeatism with you? I thought you were quite intelligent but you seem to have some serious psychological issues or ideological more to say.
Are you Russian? Are you mixed? Are you even in Russia?
He has vann disease... it is all Putins fault... if Putin had not made Russia rich and powerful the west would not have noticed Russia at all.
I can see it already old Betty the pensioner brings in a Ukrainian and gets covid and dies. Suddenly COVID doesn't matter.
Yeah, she dies but he gets squatting rights and ends up owning the house... did you know one of COVIDS symptoms is multiple stab wounds in the lower back...
How close or far from the truth am I?
That is in, which means Zelenskys superiors and backers actually don't want a peace settlement... there are no factions in this fight they would care about if every single one of them was brutally killed... military factions or civilians on either side... Kievs objectives is to try to kill all the civilians who want to speak Russian or don't hate Russians so they can also occupy their land... Lugansk, Donbass, and also Crimea... so you can see why Russia is not interested in giving Kiev what it wants, because those areas are not theirs to give... the people of all three of those regions have been fighting non stop for 8 years to resist and will continue to do so no matter what Russia agrees with.
Of course Russia has already said it wont agree to that and the longer it takes the larger these regions with independence from Kiev will become.
At this point, with all sanctions already blowing, it does not make any strategic sense for Russia to negotiate, better to carry on until they can sit at the table from a much stronger military position. Timing: 1-3 weeks in my view.
Doesn't hurt to talk... remember not all the Kiev negotiators will be nutters and it would be good to regularly contact them and see what they really think away from the media and military. One Kiev negotiator was reportedly killed... by Kievs forces... perhaps he was prepared to be more flexible than the Nazis or the US or the EU would allow and had to be removed?
I fully agree actually with flamming_python. Russian attack on Ukraine is tremendous, strategic mistake of epic proportions and Russian leadership should resign and actually stand for their bad decisions...
It has been 22 years and the west shows no sign of treating Russia as anything other than a colony they conquered, to be split and divided and consumed for its resources.
Putin is the pro west west friendly politician in Russia... except for Medvedev and I think he learned his lesson and is more anti west than Putin is.
Without Putin Russia probably would not be in such a good position as it is now, but would have invaded a few years ago and done a rather worse job of it.
At present no one in Ukraine wants Russians or their influence, that is over especially now when so much blood is spilled.
They are bitches... they bent over and took it from Nazis and the US... now they can take it from a different group in power.
If they want real freedom and peace but they aren't prepared to fight for it then they can't have it.
Same with the citizens of the west.
And problem is once blood is spilled, it is very difficult to stop it and put beast back in the cage.
They were spilling the blood of their own these last 8 years and the west couldn't care less... now their new puppets are getting their strings cut and they are bitching and moaning... let them moan.
Russia has spent 8 years demanding Kiev fulfil its obligations under the Minsk agreement to avoid bloodshed... and Kiev said **** you... I have the mighty HATO and EU and US behind me so I will just do as I please.
Now that Russia learned of their planned invasion and their bio weapon labs and nuclear weapon ambitions... well any of those three would be reason enough for this invasion... the fact that you ignore this is your problem...
Putin has never rushed to war for fun or to improve income levels, it was always very seriously planned and thought out, and this is no different.
And if anyone here believes that Russian forces are in full control of the situation on the ground in Ukraine - you are delusional.
Killing Nazis and making the west look impotent is more than enough... Russia was going to have to separate ties from the west because the west controls international organisations, so independent alternatives needed to be created, and this will mean that will happen sooner rather than later... but it was always going to happen... just like western sanctions... Kiev was being pushed to provoke the Russians... if the invasion of the Donbass and Lugansk regions didn't achieve that their next target would have been the crimea with full western support of course because they knew Russia would then be obliged to respond and they would get what they wanted... what they have now... ironically it is also the best for Russia long term too and should lead to a reshuffle in the west where the US is no longer the dominant power because the US dollar wont be the international currency of trade anymore... and the EU might start growing some balls and start working for the needs of its own people instead of following the US like a dog.
We forget that Ukraine is actually huge European country and pretty big nation.
It is no more european than russia is.
They took this very personal, in their mind this is not Russia against Ukraine, this is Putin against Ukrainian nation.
This has nothing to do with the Ukraine and everything to do with the US trying to destroy a rival... even shelling every house in the Ukraine would be less damage than the west has done there in the last 8 years by cutting off Russia, their main trade partner and replacing her with IMF loans and all sorts of promises.
So this means forget about any chance of any surrender, no hard power from Russia will help, you can not subdue someone that is resisting you in their minds - and Ukranians reject everything Russian now.
They submitted to the west and watched as russian speaking ukrainians were burned to death... they sound like drones who will do as they are told.
And also people here seems forget that Ukrainians are Slavic as Russian. Those are people with big warm heart and soul, but once they have to fight for their country those hearts would turn to stone if needed but they will not bow down. Actually it is not only Ukraine but Russia too is one that is cornered and without good options for smooth exit. We are seeing huge catastrophe right now.
They were happy to spill their own blood in the Donbass and Lugansk, they are sheep who don't care about anything.
An open trade border with Russia and some money coming in in terms of normal investment and commerce and some parts of the country will be transformed... the rest can remain neutral...
Russia is not going in to the Ukraine to annex it, they are eliminating a threat and accusations from the west that it will be another Afghanistan are just a joke... before Desert Storm there were lots of idiots claiming it would be another Vietnam...
Russia is a different country now and will talk to the Ukrainians and sort something out, but not on Zelenskys terms.
It must be possible to express criticism for this big gamble - and if that is not possible Russia is already doomed and lost no matter of "win".
You wont get banned or censored on this forum for expressing an opinion.
KEEP CALM AND DENAZIFY UKROPIA!
Only two countries voted against a ban on nazi ideology... Ukraine and the US... the latter was because they said it was a free speech issue, yet they have banned RT, despite their commitment to free speech.
Which by the way reminds me, have the British "Starstreaks" been shipped yet? I wonder how long it's going to take for them to be captured.
The same guy that sold the other missiles to the Russians will likely sell those to them as well... hope they have enough rubles, but then if they have captured Bio weapons labs maybe there were boxes of US money in charity boxes there too?
I have watched a few news clips from Moldova and they are suggesting that they sign a neutrality status very fast hoping that Russia won't target them. Other clips have suggested that once the link up happens that Russia will take over Moldova.
The pro Russian parts of Moldova border with the Ukraine so capturing Ukrainian territory adjacent to them means no need to invade the rest of Moldova.
I bet you that Russians in Donbass took thing VERY personal to.. And so apparently did Russia, and Putin... Russia did not start this conflict, but im SO F**KING HAPPY that they are ending it.
He is so worried about what Ukrainians think while ignoring that some ukrainians have been living in fear for the last 8 years either being shelled or having to put up with nazi shit in their own country 70 years after that BS was supposed to have been dealt with.
And russia do not care what anyone thinks anymore, they tried that, and they tried talking, but did anyone listen.. noo.. The new rules are, touch one hair on one of my cubs and your country will become a pile of rocks.. Finally!!
Pretty clear that Putin has given up trying to please the west now and sees the future of Russia as being with the rest of the world instead.... that includes China or course, but also the rest of asia and africa and america from mexico south.
The other issue with acting LATER is that Putin is the only guy who protects Russia and our interests, the next guy might be a fucking Navalny or of this kind of Sorts. Do you believe there is no line of potential Western stooges like Yeltsin waiting to be placed under Washington's hand?
That is an important factor, you can say some other Russian leader could do a better job... we only had one... Medvedev... and he was awful... he was a weakling.
Putin is tried and tested and able to fight the west on even terms even if his hand of cards was mostly bluff to begin with... he has been tested and proven not to sell out the interests of the Russian people to the western wolves... you can claim this or that other Russian could do a better job but how do we know they wont just fold under pressure, or have weaknesses the west will find and exploit?
Putin is exactly the man they want in power for this and what happens next too.
Another reason why they couldn't wait five years... Putin might not want this big war on his record but he has been given no choice at all.
I think he would rather be the Russian president that invaded an enemy neighbour and protected Russia and the world from monsters, than the president that responded to the attack after serious damage was done to Russia to make him act.
This 30 years of the Ukrainian lobotomization will be reversed in much shorter time than you believe.
Even if they don't, they clearly do as their masters tell them so make their masters make them behave.
The Novorussia forces must be getting pretty well trained on NLAW. Maybe it's something after the war they could copy and produce themselves and I am sure they could find a way to make it cheaper to produce
RPG-28 is a 125mm calibre weapon that is rather likely a bit better than that particular weapon...
...unfortunately, people STILL DON'T understand that those missiles on a handful of ships will hardly cover anything.
Putting them in submarines and they can be everywhere... or anywhere... you wont know until they get launched... which is good enough.
A handful of cutting edge stuff won't EVER secure the seas, where as numbers will.
Russia is never going to have enough ships to secure the worlds oceans, but that is OK, they can organise convoys of ships operating together perhaps with an escort frigate or sub...
Perhaps even armed transports optimised for ship escort duties that will fend off attacks or attempts to confiscate it or other ships...
2) retaliate in same coin by seizing/blocking opponents ships & shipping lanes.
Well they are creating a north sea route through their own waters that reduces transit times from Asia to Europe by 2 weeks and no canal fees to worry about either... refusing transit of ships from countries that seize or block Russian ships could be one measure they could implement easily enough.
But you need to realize that untill and unless the war doesn't strike the war profiteers, the cycle of wars will continue.
The west didn't trade with Russia for charity or to help Russia, they were making good money. Now Russia will satisfy its needs itself or from a different country... if it develops its own replacement then that replacement represents new competition for the west which can be sold around the world in competition to their product... what are the chances Russian workers working for rubles could do it cheaper?
So many have said Russia doesn't need anything more than Corvettes and Frigates...
The use of the decoys may point to some level of carelessness or urgency by Russian military leadership, Mr. Lewis said, given that Russia knows they will inevitably be collected and studied by Western intelligence services so that NATO air defenses can be programmed to defeat the Iskander’s countermeasures.
No countermeasure ever lasts forever... and the secret to decoys is that you either want them to mimic the target you want to obscure, or you want them all to be different so the defence can't tell which is which.
These decoys were being used since day one of production of Iskander and would only be fitted in situations where the target has decent air defences... so for instance launching these missiles in Syria they wont bother with the decoys because ISIS has no air defence capacity to defeat them.
Ukraine has defences that can shoot down Iskander so they use them... probably older decoys or decoys tweaked to be effective against BUK and S-300... which they will know well.
I doubt the Russians didn't consider that possibility. Just maybe these are the Mk1 version so they are sending Western Intel on a wild goose chase as the Mk2 is in production.
They will have lots of different versions for different situations... as I said for most of HATO countries there are no air defence systems able to shoot them down so they might not even bother... but other theatres and other wars they will have a variety of decoys designed to work against different defences.
So far we have seen footage of train supplies, land and now it is possible trough Berdyansk via the sea.This convoy will smash someone's day
Highlights the problems of phone cameras though doesn't it... you have the subject of your video driving along a street and you hold your camera upright so you get excellent views of the footpath in front of you and only minimal amounts of the vehicles you are filming... people are idiots.
The main number of donors are wounded Ukrainian soldiers, many were not asked for consent, they are missing, their families were not compensated. The main customer is Mikhail Saakashvili and his wife, it was their business. We are talking about hundreds of victims, among whom dozens are civilians, mostly women and children.
That was a problem in Kosovo too... the west obviously comes down hard on that sort of thing.... it is funny they have never accused Russia of doing that.... yet.
New versions of the Nebo-M system (55ZH6M)also allow the use of three integrated radars at once in the meter range ( Nebo-SVU modification), decimeter ( Opponent-G modification ) and centimeter Gamma-S1 . By combining and superimposing even very weak reflected signals on each other, the computer of the system makes it possible to obtain a complex signature of stealth objects, effectively filtering out natural and artificial interference .
If anyone does not understand that you can consider a digital video and thermal imager and computer processing.
Looking at a camouflaged soldier because his colours will match the background and the camouflage breaks up his shape he can be very hard to see if you are just using a digital video camera. Add a Thermal Imager however and he is very easy to see but not so easy to identify because the heat image of people lacks detail.
Using either one system would be a problem because each system has advantages and capabilities, but they also have weaknesses too... the digital video system is no good at night at any decent distance, while the thermal imager makes proper identification at any range not so easy.
By combining both optical systems and using computer processing however you can solve problems... the digital video image gives a clear view of the soldiers face but finding him is the problem, the thermal imager makes finding him easy but looking at the weapon he is carrying or his facial features to identify him is hard, but using the computer you can find the soldier with the thermal image and superimpose that on the digital image which you can zoom in and identify the man and the weapon he is carrying.
Add a basic battle field portable radar to this mix and you can detect movement out to several kms which draws your attention to the target... zooming in with thermals and digital night vision and you will be able to find threats much faster than with any of the systems on their own.
Each has advantages and problems, but using them together maximises their advantages and minimises or eliminates their problems...
Once your long wave radar has detected the presence of a stealth target you no longer need to scan for it in an enormous volume of space... you now have a very small area of space to search with other means... high power higher frequency radar or IR sensors to locate the target.
The Su-57 is for hunting stealth targets and has a nose mounted Ku and Ka band high frequency radar and wing mounted L band radar arrays, and of course an IR sensor which no doubt includes a long and medium wave thermal camera too... imagine what a computer could do with that sort of input...
A hit on an ammo/fuel truck or MLRS?
The fireball, I would say one was a fuel truck at least but certainly could be any of those three as they would be their top priority.
Too much fire for it to be a 2S1 or 2S3 artillery vehicle... IMHO.
When will peace be established? How many ordinary Ukrainians not guilty of anything are going to suffer?
Peace might happen when the US lets go... but it is going to take a while... hopefully not another 20 years, but if that is what it takes then that is what it takes.
No-one needs such 'revenge'. If you're going to launch an operation, so define what you're trying to achieve and if its even achievable. Else you're going to end up with exactly what the Ukraine is shaping up to be.
There are plenty of people in the Ukraine who deserve justice and Russia is making the conditions right for them to get it.
They were never going to get in as part of the EU or HATO.
Oho, comedy guy is back!
Telling the guys that they are impotent.
Yup, that will be really helpful
But it is true for a change.
Reality is biting him in the ass... fucking over his own people and his country because it is OK... the west has your back...
Well that didn't last long did it?
Putin probably is taking it personally to some extent, I give you that. He doesn't want to go down in the history as the one who gave up without a fight.
It is a calculated and heavily considered fight, which Russia has all the prospects to win. And it will. This is not gambling.
The irony is that Putin has been bad because he takes western shit on the chin and does not respond.
Well now he responds and he has to go... there is nothing Putin could have done that was good enough despite the situation Russia has found itself in these last 20 years.
my own sister have started entertaining the idea that we should get rid of Russia as a power.
If that was even possible it would have happened a long time ago... there is nothing the collective west wants more...
It's possible the Ukrainian army will become demoralized. Probably will happen. And just give up
When experienced western special forces are giving up and leaving, you think conscripts want to stay and fight for Zelensky?
I don't know. I'm against Nazism too, but it's an exaggeration to call the Ukrainian regime a Nazi state. Just an anti-Russian oligarchical regime sponsored by the West, which uses Nazis to enforce order.
Anti Russian state that uses Nazis to enforce order... that is a good description of Germany in the 1930s to mid 1940s... obviously not something that needed to be attacked and destroyed...
Has the Ukraine always been anti-Russian historically, like Poland? I'm talking before WW2.
It was Russia until the end of WWI when part of it became Poland, which was not returned to the Soviet Union until 1939 when Hitler seized Poland but didn't want the Russian bit which he let Stalin seize back.
Like I have said few days ago and like the video of the UK guy above proves it, there is no coming back for them. As soon as they are on the front they will be in a loosing positions while ukrainian will use them until the end by not allowing to flee.
If they live they will have to pay them...
What with?
Unlikely to happen but funny if it did
Funny because Russia wouldn't do it, but can you say the same for the US?
Hunter Biden president of the Ukraine...
Unemployed MiG-31
probably one of the few types of aircraft that have no "job" in Ukraine,
Very not true... the MiG-31BM has a SEAD capability and equally an ABM capacity with air to air missiles enabling it to be able to hit surface to surface missiles, but it needs to be in the right place at the right time for that obviously... flying at 20km altitude its potential against Tochkas would be quite reasonable, but its performance against SAMs from a high altitude and high speed launch would make it safe from BUK and able to reach targets 250km away using AS-11 type missiles... probably even further with improved models.
I came back to the forum to post this. But it doesn't give me hope that sanity is prevailing when I read the words "Shoigu coup" on the board. When are ppl going to understand that the whole US media machine is on the biggest propaganda offensive ever ?
When it is finished and there is no blood bath of children and women the western media will have nothing to report... and after it is all over the crimes of Kiev will trickle out, like evidence that the Scud was inaccurate but was not stopped by Patriot and Patriot was very very ordinary and ineffective against scud missiles during desert storm despite the scud being towted as a super weapon and Patriot as being the cure...
I believe Kiev is completely surrounded. Russia may just simply turn them away and tell them to go home.
Or ask for the coordinates of the building they are going to stay in....
Better to save the ammo for the real nazis...
In my estimation , withdrawal of forces , may be possible in about twenty years . If we compare to similar situations like Syria .
They likely were in contact with groups inside the country before the attack took place, and without destroying the country completely it will simply be a case of maintaining law and order and letting the people have referendums and elections to decide what they want going forward.
I doubt they will be there more than a year as the Lugansk and Donbass regions will be friendly and definitely wont want Kiev in charge of them in any way or form, and the regions around them are likely the same.
The areas in the west on the border with Poland etc... who cares... they can deal with their own problems as they see fit there will be independent regions between them and Russia anyway.
Ukraine is split now in four pieces... Crimea is never going back and Lugansk and Donbass is not either... what the rest wants to do will likely be up to them.
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helicopters destroyed or damaged following reported 
strike (46.67358° N, 32.50764° E) 
