Russia was doing other things... like inventing hypersonic scramjet engines and hypersonic gliders, and lots of other useful things including 5th gen fighter aircraft.
Making computer chips is expensive but ultimately not very profitable if you don't have a big market for the product... that is why no one else bothers and countries like the Netherlands and Taiwan dominate... they are not technology power houses... they just spent the money and time and got the experience.
People ask why Russia didn't have all the drones the west has years ago, and quite frankly they didn't need them so money wasn't spent and experienced wasn't put in to make the money spent better value for money.
China has spent lots of money developing all sorts of weapons and systems but not using them in real conflicts really means their potential is a bit hit and miss because they are untested. On an exercise park very long range artillery rockets look amazing... and if your enemy is the US or HATO then they will be forced to decide whether to use multi million dollar SAMs to shoot down each of your ballistic rockets or to just bite the bullet and let them hit their targets. So far the US has run away when Iran started launching rockets at them. But if the enemy is Russia then Russia has a range of different SAMs they could use to shoot down long range ballistic rockets including TOR and Pantsir and S-350, and they have enormous numbers of the former two missile types so your long range super ballistic rockets become meaningless because their range is amazing but if they hardly ever hit their targets because they get shot down then they are useless.
Russia didn't make consumer level computer chips because it is just cheaper to buy them from China.
For military use they have all the production capacity they need. The internal domestic market is too small to start making 14NM chips unless they were exporting them to Africa and Central and South America and people in the west who don't want to make it easy for America to spy on them.
Why does Russia wait to get sanctioned before initiating these projects?
They had a lot of areas to fill and computer chips for gaming computers and cell phones was not top priority because they can still get them from China and quite a few other countries are happy to parallel import stuff to Russia bypassing US sanctions that are not legal in their country.
You can rest assured that the chips and electronics going into their new defence equipment and satellites and super computers is likely all Russian made and also world class, but mass producing consumer items is not their top priority with the funds and specialists they have available.
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China is spending hundreds of billions of dollars in an attempt to catch up with the West in terms of semiconductors. At least they have a huge consumer market they can sell to. Russia does not have this.
The needs of the military aren't enough to pay for this huge expense. The US military has basically given up on designing their own modern chips and use consumer FPGAs or other chips for the most part.
kvs wrote: The knee-jerk skeptics are assuming Russia is starting from nothing and flying blind.
Someone tell them that the ASML technology was developed with the participation of Russian scientists. https://patents.justia.com/patent/6452194 Patent History Patent number: 6452194 Type: Grant Filed: Dec 14, 2000 Date of Patent: Sep 17, 2002 Assignee: ASML Netherlands B.V. (Veldhoven) Inventors: Frederik Bijkerk (Amsterdam), Henryk Fiedorowicz (Warszawa), Cornelis C. de Bruijn (Sprundel), Andrzej Bartnik (Warszawa), Konstantin N. Koshelev (Troitzk), Vadim Y. Banine (Helmond) Primary Examiner: Jack Berman Assistant Examiner: Johnnie L Smith, II Attorney, Agent or Law Firm: Pillsbury Winthrop LLP Application Number: 09/735,641
You can find more patents here, and a significant part of them feature with Russian inventors.
Yes. It was also a Russian scientist who works for Cymer in the USA who developed the tin droplet chamber used to emit the EUV rays which make the whole thing work.
A lot of people don't know about it, but the Soviet Union was ahead of the US in laser research.
They had a lot of areas to fill and computer chips for gaming computers and cell phones was not top priority because they can still get them from China and quite a few other countries are happy to parallel import stuff to Russia bypassing US sanctions that are not legal in their country. wrote:
This is a very foolish way to think for a country like Russia with many G7 enemies. If you are Russia it is in your best interest to establish a local microeconomy that produces ALL the imported technology you need NO MATTER WHAT. Shifting the import bill to China doesn't solve it. China now has the power to coerce you into doing what they need you to. Nothing is ever too pricey where national and economic sovereignty is involved. Majority of China's money in industrial output comes from the Western world. If the entire G7 cuts China off for trading with Russia, China is gonna have a problem. China wont suffer or anything but the economic decline will be BAD and China is not gonna sacrifice her people for Russia. Who will Russia source things from when China has to stop supplying? This has a little chance to none of ever occurring but it is a possibility.
Russia trusted the West too much. Which they never should have done. Russia should have been like China from the onset. China never trusted the Western world or ANYBODY. EVER. Including Russia. China just took longer to build her local supply chain but she had the vision to do it as far back as the 1980s. China long envisioned Tiangong before NASA kicked them off the ISS. NASA kicking them off was some fulfillment of prophecy in a way. China was already prepared. They had been building this space station since the late 90s. China was in Semiconductor research as far back as the 90s.. Getting banned from EUV ASML tech is nothing because China has a local EUV lithography machine in testing as we speak. Russia needs China's foresight.. China doesnt care about expenses. They care about economic autonomy.
Oh my God, Karen, you must write to Putin about this immediately! wrote:
Russians agree too. So I am not the only one. You should have seen the disappointment across VK when it was announced that companies originating in countries that hate Russia were leaving and that Chinese companies were instead taking over. Russians expected a revival of the Russian industry to make Russia competitive again but no, Moskvich returned as a rebadged Chinese EV and not the work of Brilliant, Patriotic Russian engineers.. Russians too hate the import culture that has gripped Russia these days..
Everytime Rostec posts something interesting on their VK page, Russians flood the comments with, "Are you ever gonna produce these things? , "Where do the parts in this come from?".. You can deduce from that , that Russians are pretty upset with the importation of everything..
Swgman_BK wrote:Everytime Rostec posts something interesting on their VK page, Russians flood the comments with, "Are you ever gonna produce these things? , "Where do the parts in this come from?".. You can deduce from that , that Russians are pretty upset with the importation of everything..
What have you done to change the situation, other than writing unhappy comments?
Swgman_BK wrote:You should have seen the disappointment across VK when it was announced that companies originating in countries that hate Russia were leaving and that Chinese companies were instead taking over. Russians expected a revival of the Russian industry to make Russia competitive again but no, Moskvich returned as a rebadged Chinese EV and not the work of Brilliant, Patriotic Russian engineers.. Russians too hate the import culture that has gripped Russia these days..
"These days". Do you even know why the city where AvtoVAZ's factory is in was called Togliatti? Because they started out making licensed versions of Italian FIAT cars. As if the Soviets didn't do the same thing. They didn't design their own cars all that often either.
The Chinese aren't immune to sanctions either. Xi keeps asking auto manufacturers when he visits them if they are using Chinese chips or not. Guess why. Most of the electronics in Chinese EVs for example are imported. The higher end the EV is, the more imported electronics it has.
Swgman_BK wrote:Russia could have done this decades ago.. They would have a 14nm by now. Why does Russia wait to get sanctioned before initiating these projects? This project If I remember right started in 2014 and it just paused until what? 2021?
Russia has serious sabotage problems. Policy level sabotage. When clowns like Kudrin are in positions of power you know things are not so good. Russia is still hampered by these monetarist clowns who infest the Finance Ministry and the CBR. Putin is not the tyrant that NATzO clowns paint him to be. He can't snap his fingers and have the country do what he wants. He has to deal with reality. Much like Trump is not able to drain the swamp even if most people want that to happen. But at least in Russia it is not as bad as in the USA.
lancelot wrote:China is spending hundreds of billions of dollars in an attempt to catch up with the West in terms of semiconductors. At least they have a huge consumer market they can sell to. Russia does not have this.
The needs of the military aren't enough to pay for this huge expense. The US military has basically given up on designing their own modern chips and use consumer FPGAs or other chips for the most part.
Russian prices are not western prices. China is operating on some sort of western price model but I do not know enough to quantify it. The fundamental research and engineering does not cost hundreds of billions of dollars. That is a BS number in this context. If Russians can develop the PD-14 and PD-35, it can industrialize its prototype lithography equipment. The jet engine development is not cheap and easy and that is why only four countries on the planet can handle this task.
I think there is too much worship of electronics by internet fanbois. Their daily experience is all about running gaming rigs and having interest in what Intel, AMD and Nvidia are putting out. The whole reference frame is distorted. High res chip production ain't the dog's bollox.
kvs wrote:Russian prices are not western prices. China is operating on some sort of western price model but I do not know enough to quantify it. The fundamental research and engineering does not cost hundreds of billions of dollars. That is a BS number in this context. If Russians can develop the PD-14 and PD-35, it can industrialize its prototype lithography equipment. The jet engine development is not cheap and easy and that is why only four countries on the planet can handle this task.
Ramping up the fabrication facilities in China alone is costing tens of billions of dollars. For example each of the 28nm fabs with 100,000 wafers per month capacity that SMIC is building costs around eight billion dollars. SMIC is building three of those fabs. SMIC isn't the only company in China building fabs of similar complexity either. The memory fabs at CXMT (DRAM) and YMTC (VNAND) are roughly of similar complexity. When you add the cost to make their own tools, produce their own materials, chip design, software design, etc. It is hundreds of billions of dollars for sure. And that is without them building any EUV fabs yet. Once they start building EUV fabs, the cost to build a fab or design a chip will increase again, for example TSMC's 5nm fab with 120,000 wafers per month capacity in Taiwan cost them like seventeen billion. Basically a 5nm fab costs twice as much as a 28nm one.
Just for reference developing the PD-14 engine was initially estimated to cost one billion dollars, and developing the PD-35 is estimated to cost three billion dollars. Program cost for whole MS-21 aircraft program was initially estimated at like seven billion dollars.
Even if you constrain development of chips just to those required by the military in Russia, like a single 28nm fab, I wouldn't be surprised if that will require like ten billion to develop the fab, tools, materials, software, chip designs, etc. But this would be a small fab, like maybe 25,000 wafers per month capacity.
"These days". Do you even know why the city where AvtoVAZ's factory is in was called Togliatti? Because they started out making licensed versions of Italian FIAT cars. As if the Soviets didn't do the same thing. They didn't design their own cars all that often either. wrote:
The USSR imported very little relative to their economy. If they did import something it was to either reverse engineer it or study how its made and then make their own. Not like copying, but gathering design information as a reference point for when they make their own similar thing. eg getting American Air to Air missiles to compare to Soviet air to air missiles and iron out deficiencies..
Russia neglects local manufacturing ability for imported goods even when they have the ability to make that thing themselves.. Only the Russian military is exempt from this. All else is subject to this.
Swgman_BK wrote:Everytime Rostec posts something interesting on their VK page, Russians flood the comments with, "Are you ever gonna produce these things? , "Where do the parts in this come from?".. You can deduce from that , that Russians are pretty upset with the importation of everything..
Yes, because an indication of how a country is doing is from VK comment section. For all we know, could be Ukrainians too.
I have always noticed Russians bitching. Go look through my post history, long ago way before this very conflict I mentioned about how Russians are some of the whiniest fucks I have ever incountered. At least the ones online. They don't actually attempt to fix the problems they claim exist. Yet industrial output and semiconductor production is running up in double digits of percentage. Meaning that yes, indeed Russia is producing this stuff.
Only factor that Russia really lacks in, is advertisement. These companies don't seem to advertise any of the shit they make.
This is a very foolish way to think for a country like Russia with many G7 enemies.
Not as foolish as borrowing 34 trillion dollars and then instead of trying to pay it back start some wars.
Russia can't just print all the money it needs and it has to stay within its budget and making computer chips for gamers is not profitable for a country like Russia.
For China, it has a billion people to sell stuff to so it makes sense to develop such industry.
China is not going to impose sanctions on Russia just like Russia is not going to impose sanctions on China... that is the core of BRICS... sanctions are only allowed in retaliation to sanctions imposed by others.
Pissing away billions to get effectively computer chips as good as the ones China already makes is not good value for money.
No country is an island that can cut everyone out and survive in isolation... not the US and not China and certainly not Russia.
If you are Russia it is in your best interest to establish a local microeconomy that produces ALL the imported technology you need NO MATTER WHAT.
You don't understand... the US is only just now setting up production in America... even America relied on equipment from Amsterdam and Taiwan for their chip production... because it didn't make sense for them before they started rocking the boat over Taiwan. They now are setting up production in the US because they are trying to start a war between China and Taiwan and while they are fucking stupid, they are not so stupid that they don't realise and an open war between Taiwan and China might effect their supplies of chips from Taiwan... and in the circumstances they wont be able to import chips from China obviously.
There is a lot of electronics Russia does make... a recent video from their rifle scopes maker shows they make all the electronics in their optics too... from red dot sights to thermals. The electronics for the satellites and military equipment is also made in Russia too. It is the consumer electronics they don't make in volume...
Working together with China in some areas makes a lot of sense but there are some areas it doesn't make sense for them to spend money on production for because their needs don't justify the enormous costs involved.
China is making its own chips which it can sell within its own market, and to anyone else buying Chinese produced equipment, which is much of the west and most of the rest of the world. Russia might buy Chinese consumer stuff too so they might as well buy the chips and essentially China will replace Taiwan and the Dutch as the source of electronic goods for most of the world.
The US is going to set up production but how cost effective is that going to be... most likely it will tank because they will be competing with both Taiwan and China and honestly I doubt they would have any chance even cheating like they do.
Shifting the import bill to China doesn't solve it. China now has the power to coerce you into doing what they need you to.
They have the potential... just the same way that the EU had the power to make Russia do exactly what it wanted by refusing to buy cheap gas and oil from them...
Don't confuse the Chinese and Russians with the west. It is the US and EU that use such levers to control others in their trade relations.
If China wanted to do that then what is to stop the Russians from saying if you don't sell chips to us at a reasonable rate we will increase the cost of our gas supplies and other things we sell to you like GM free food... but neither are going to do that because they understand what that leads to... look at Russian and Chinese relations with the west in comparison to the relations with each other.
China will buy Russian gas because it is cheap and available and US and UK ships can't block supply, and Russia will buy Chinese chips because they are not being controlled by the US like Taiwan is, and they are cheaper and probably better than the chips Taiwan is making now.
Nothing is ever too pricey where national and economic sovereignty is involved.
Putin isn't hated so in the western circles of power because he is stupid.
Majority of China's money in industrial output comes from the Western world. If the entire G7 cuts China off for trading with Russia, China is gonna have a problem.
The west is going to have a much bigger problem... who is going to make their cheap consumerist crap for them? In the volumes they want at the price they have been getting.
The G7 cut Russian oil exports and capped the prices they could sell oil for, and Russia is making more money than it has ever made before, and has managed to find alternative shipping from European shipping to move their oil and no longer throw money at European shipping insurance companies for delivering their oil.
The Europeans lost big time on that... are they ready for much worse with China?
There is a long list of countries happy to buy things from all the countries imposing sanctions on Russia and sell them to Russia... Apple left the Russian market over a year ago and Apple products are readily available, because while apple stopped selling to Russia they are now selling to the UAE and Kazakhstan and Turkey and many other countries who then sell what they bought to Russians who want that shit.
China wont suffer or anything but the economic decline will be BAD and China is not gonna sacrifice her people for Russia.
China wont need to... they have lots of businessmen looking for new opportunities and anything they were making and selling in China they can set up factories in the Russian far east and make in Russia and even import back to China...
Who will Russia source things from when China has to stop supplying?
Well which countries bought Russian gas and oil when Europe stopped buying.... India and China and quite a few other countries took advantage of the business opportunity and made a lot of money at Europes expense.
Russia does not need to import much... they can make their own machine tools and 3D printers and they produce their own food and energy.
There are still gaps like motor cars, but there are plenty of countries that make good cars and even those that wont sell directly to Russia will sell to a third party that will sell to Russia.
Otherwise they bite the bullet and start making decent cars...
This has a little chance to none of ever occurring but it is a possibility.
If you are worried about very low probability situations then we are all dead because there is a probability above zero that an asteroid might hit the earth and destroy all life as we know it... doesn't that make everything we do pointless?
When gambling you weigh the odds and cover the most likely things best... and they have... their armed forces are in tip top shape and their nukes are ready to kill.
I would say looking at new technology that might replace conventional chips would be a better investment and in the mean time buying from China means they can keep on doing what they are doing.
The US has formed AUKUS to bully China and is trying to enlist India to be their billion man battering ram against China the way the Ukraine was supposed to be against Russia in Europe. I can't see that working, and India knows the US is using them so they are using the US in the hope that the western investment in China to make it the wests sweatshop will be redirected at India... but of course as dumb as they are they are not so stupid to turn India into China II... so they will put limits on India that India will have to negotiate if they want to grow and develop.
BRICS is going to be a much more lucrative market for China and India than the west could ever be because as Russia and China know... you can develop so far but when you become a threat then they try to step on you to retard your growth and contain you... BRICS is not going to be like that.
Russia trusted the West too much. Which they never should have done.
Russia was trusting the west too much in the 1990s... Putin talked about partnership but didn't take their shit. They double crossed him multiple times but he got up and dusted himself off and learned from the experience.
Russia bought a lot of things from the west and introduced a lot of western technology and upgraded their own standards...without doing what they did they would not be where they are now. But of course it is only now that they are having a real purge of western polluted assets and orgs because the leeches can't extract the money they used to extract because SWIFT is closed to them. Finding these ghouls and ousting them from boards and ownership and reverting back to government control is liberating Russian resources and stopping a lot of the money that was leaving Russia every day to end up in the wrong hands.
In many ways this is a rebirth for Russia to shed its skin infested with leeches and ticks of the west and further afield.
Russia should have been like China from the onset.
China is infested even worse than Russia is and will be rather more damaged when the west collapses... but with energy and food coming from Russia they should be able to tough it out... can't say the same for the EU though.
Getting banned from EUV ASML tech is nothing because China has a local EUV lithography machine in testing as we speak. Russia needs China's foresight.. China doesnt care about expenses. They care about economic autonomy.
China is vastly more dependent on the west than Russia is, they can't even make their own airliners, and much of their military equipment is a combination of Soviet and western weapons and equipment.
China didn't start looking for alternatives in chip making till the US started threatening them.
Russians agree too. So I am not the only one.
Scorpius is Russian.
Russians expected a revival of the Russian industry to make Russia competitive again but no, Moskvich returned as a rebadged Chinese EV and not the work of Brilliant, Patriotic Russian engineers.. Russians too hate the import culture that has gripped Russia these days..
Cars have never been a strong point of Russian production or design... unless you count specialist cars like this:
Kharkovchanka:
Everytime Rostec posts something interesting on their VK page, Russians flood the comments with, "Are you ever gonna produce these things? , "Where do the parts in this come from?".. You can deduce from that , that Russians are pretty upset with the importation of everything..
Sounds like VK is full of a bunch of whiney bitches... what are they doing to solve the problem?
Are they accessing VK via a Russian computer or are they using Apples... bet the latter...
sepheronx wrote:I have always noticed Russians bitching. Go look through my post history, long ago way before this very conflict I mentioned about how Russians are some of the whiniest fucks I have ever incountered. At least the ones online. They don't actually attempt to fix the problems they claim exist. Yet industrial output and semiconductor production is running up in double digits of percentage. Meaning that yes, indeed Russia is producing this stuff.
Only factor that Russia really lacks in, is advertisement. These companies don't seem to advertise any of the shit they make.
The chip making fabs in Zelenograd are likely running at the highest capacity they ever did. While before the conflict, they had issues keeping them occupied with work. You can see this by Mikron outsourcing production of chips for bank cards to Nm-Tech. Which is a separate company with a different owner. The volume of chips for the bank cards alone is huge, and there are also talks about making SIM card chips for smartphones. After Western sanctions Russia cannot buy SIM card chips from Western companies anymore. There are also rumors about making chips for automobiles.
Outside of this several factories have opened up to make computer motherboards. Most of them right now import the PCBs and components. They basically make the motherboard design, buy the PCB and components outside Russia, and solder the components themselves. I think eventually they will also make their PCBs. There are already a couple companies making their own PCBs. I think this production will increase.
There are also new factories making computer monitors. Again using imported components which likely come from China or Vietnam.
I think growth in this sector will continue but there needs to be a concerted government oriented policy for it to work effectively.
Clearly we have no information about the actual state of Russian IC production. This is why we had all the drivel in the west about Russia having to scrounge for washing machine components for its missiles. The reality is something altogether different. But supposedly Russia is so far behind, and so dependent on imports. What imports? From where? China? Then what sort of parts. Just a pile of guessing and projection.
Clearly we have no information about the actual state of Russian IC production. This is why we had all the drivel in the west about Russia having to scrounge for washing machine components for its missiles. The reality is something altogether different. But supposedly Russia is so far behind, and so dependent on imports. What imports? From where? China? Then what sort of parts. Just a pile of guessing and projection. wrote:
Russian IC production is on going. Russia still makes 90-250nm ICs mainly for space and government systems. And a few Radars too. What Russia doesnt make is the 28nm Elbrus VLIW chip that was their entry into the civilian sector of ICs. So Russian i9/Ryzen equivalents are unlikely to exist soon or ever. No one in Russia cares about this. Chinas 14nm locally designed, locally produced Longsoon i5-5th gen equivalent is however looking more promising (Its X86 compatible but runs on a custom architecture China invented for Chinese use, uses a translator to port over X86 instructions). All IC and semiconductor efforts are towards AI and automation systems development.. The Baikal was the last civilian IC program. But it was at 28nm, ARM based with terrible X86 emulation (Wont support all Windows features) and it was fabbed in Taiwan. This is now what Russia is working on making locally with their developing Maskless X Ray lithography machine (Old Soviet project revived).. That unfortunately will not yield as many chips as a DUV or EUV machine. But it allows for even smaller nodes than EUV can manage. Russia is not so far behind.. Technically speaking Russian designs are stuck in 2018 or thereabout. Production capabilities are maybe lacking but from a design standpoint Russia is only some 3 years behind. China is a year behind the industry leaders like AMD and Intel..
Russia imports Intel and AMD chips from Chinese suppliers. Currently the Chinese Longsoon is a China only thing. And the latest versions of it are very advanced. With Chinas work ethic, they should match the i9 and i7 by around 2026. The existing one leapfrogged so many generations of Intel and AMD processors.
No. There are more civilian oriented companies in Russia designing processor chips than just Baikal.
Baikal bought processor core designs from the UK and then designed customized SoCs around those imported designs. Now that the UK has blocked them from getting chip core designs, and the US blocked them from making the chips in Taiwan, Baikal are basically just living out of old stock. If they were any smart they should have made at least made some of their processors in Russia even it was at just 90nm. But of course they didn't.
But there is CloudBEAR and Syntacore who design RISC-V processor cores. So, no, Baikal aren't the only civilian oriented company designing chips in Russia.
Syntacore was bought by Yadro and is supposed to be working on designing new products that will eventually be used for servers.
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If Russia doesn't make all the chips it needs then that is because they probably didn't have to, and the costs of making them would be far above and beyond the price they pay for imports.
Sanctions are bypassed all the time and the black market allowed Iran to continue using western aircraft and weapons systems so don't say Russia couldn't do the same.
The point is that where before they could just get what they wanted from other places the new sanctions will make it obvious that they need to be able to master some of this technology for themselves and so money will be made available to get into these technology areas to solve their problems.
Their pattern so far has been emulate and upgrade existing technology while in parallel research the fundamental flaws and problems with the technology and work on a generational improvement that allows much better levels of performance to be achieved.
I would expect China will be doing the same thing and who knows what each might come up with separately or together... it is certainly an area they could cooperate on to rid themselves of their dependence on technology from the west.
I would expect China will be doing the same thing and who knows what each might come up with separately or together... it is certainly an area they could cooperate on to rid themselves of their dependence on technology from the west. wrote:
China is behind in this aspect but they are already independent. They are just working on making the Longsoon series catch up to intel 12th gens and AMD zen 4s. Otherwise China can survive right now on their own local video game industry and Longsoon chips. The chinese government like the Russian government is sorted out already. No need for Intel or AMD..Russia however is gonna have to depend on the Longsoon chips as a consequence of neglecting semiconductor development. At least for a few years until the Elbrus 32 core beast comes out.. Its gonna be expensive and likely for government use ONLY..
"Ancient" circuit board manufactured in 2023 for a Russian MLRS guided missile. The wankers in the comments show their ignorance.
1) Why develop new circuit boards to do the job of the old ones. Russia does not have military price gouging that justifies this expense. So the hack wires are not replaced with a fixed PCB. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2) Obviously no precious western washing machine chips anywhere. But high grade military components that resist EW attacks. The three main ICs are factory set gate array chips that are cheaper and more reliable than FPGAs.
3) Russia obviously has the manufacturing capacity to produce the parts needed for its military equipment. No need to run to China for help.
Westerners are brainwashed with glitz and cannot process "primitive" technology when they see it. Keep paying those taxes to feed MIC parasites who deploy fluff and ass rape with prices accordingly.
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An MLRS has to launch rockets at a target. The operator doesn´t post pics on Instagram or answers questions on his TwitterX account while commenting his actions with a live feed on Youtube.
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