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Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

mnztr

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Post n°776

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

mnztr Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:23 am

Erk wrote:Why all the interest in the MiG-25?

It wasn't designed to carry the Kinzhal.

It's successor, the MiG-31, was designed to carry the Kinzhal, and I assume the MiG-41, it's replacement will be too.

Kinzhal is a very expensive weapon vs glide bombs. I doubt MIG-41 will carry kinzhal. more likely Tsirkon.

Arkanghelsk

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Post n°777

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Arkanghelsk Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:14 pm

There is a lot of talk, that the Ukrainian offensive will begin when NATO begins air exercises in July.

If NATO truly coordinates something with Ukraine, then the decision to keep the mobilized in place will have been a good one

To repel NATO airpower, it is necessary for the S400 in Kaliningrad and Belarus to assist the ZOV force in Ukraine - s400 is capable of 150-250km kills of aircraft at lo-lo-lo profile

Striking NATO aircraft over Ukrainian border will have to be done by those aircrafts, and Mig31 will be the key as well to gun down AWACS and supporting tankers while s400 hits the low flying aircraft as they cross over Kaliningrad, Belarus , and Ukraine

Su35 and Su30 will need air corridors over Belarus to help Mig31

The NATO force could try to drip feed to the frontline, as they already know that if they move in concentration , hypersonic missiles will take them out - Patriot is gone , and they have no mobile air defense, so moving in open is suicide

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Isos

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Post n°778

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Isos Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:43 pm

Lol Russia won't fight NATO with s-400. At best some nuks equiped 40N6 will be launched but nothing less.

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Isos

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Post n°779

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Isos Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:50 pm

mnztr wrote:Why all the interest in the MiG-25?

It wasn't designed to carry the Kinzhal.

It's successor, the MiG-31, was designed to carry the Kinzhal, and I assume the MiG-41, it's replacement will be too.

Neither was the mig-31.

Ukrainians showed that you can easily equipe older jets with modern missiles making them much more valuable.

A mig-29A with 2 r-27R and 4 r-60 is useless for a modern war but the same Mig-29A with 4 kh-59mk2 is a beast. Same if you equipe it with two r-37 and a data link with other su-35 you get a nice missile truck.

Russia was too fast at retiring good plateforms and not upgrafing them.

They are planing to do the same with su-24s which can easily be upgraded to launch kh-59mk2 or new hypersonic missiles from stand off range or even gliding bombs.

They also lack dedicated EW fighters.

They are loosing in numbers and their Air force is getting smaller and smaller while such older plateforms could have done plenty of jobs with a quick upgarde.

Old su-27P could also have been upgraded to act as bomb and missile truck without the need to upgrade them to su-35 standard.

GarryB

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Post n°780

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

GarryB Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:18 pm

Going mach 2 or more with 9 tons of bombs isn't easy even for the mig-25.

It would beed in flight refueling to go back to the base.

Not sure about the MiG-25, but for the MiG-31RB the difference is not that much... having 1.5 ton bombs on four wing pylons and two more conformally mounted on the belly means drag is not actually much different than when carrying 8 R-33s, so the flight radius at high supersonic speed does not really change much and of course flying towards the Ukraine border at mach 2.6 burns lots of fuel and the flight radius is probably about 700km or so, but the return flight can be subsonic and probably double that flight range.

I would also love to see “ballistics” of drop at such speed. It would be easier to have a glide bomb with a booster if range is needed.

A toss release from 18km altitude at mach 2.6 would be interesting, but I doubt existing glide kits could be used at such speeds and at such altitudes...

I always thought they should have kept some 48 mig-25 and upgrade them for multirole missions. Its speed was a true advantage over the battlefield.

The MiG-31 can do the same job better... with more bombs.

As carrier of glide bombs. Not Kinzhal.

The only model MiG-25 that can carry bombs was the MiG-25RB, whereas the MiG-31BM is supposed to be able to carry up to 9 tons of bombs (6 x 1.5 tons).

Kinzhal is a very expensive weapon vs glide bombs. I doubt MIG-41 will carry kinzhal. more likely Tsirkon.

I suspect the MiG-31BM with 1 ton to 1.5 ton bombs with glide kits specially for high speed high altitude release... perhaps even toss release profiles to maximise delivery distance performance would be a cheap way to deliver weapons at targets at enormous distances... 200-300km or so, with the accuracy of a glide kit guidance unit.

Lol Russia won't fight NATO with s-400. At best some nuks equiped 40N6 will be launched but nothing less.

If HATO wants to get involved... even with air power then Russia needs to stamp down hard and that would require tactical nukes or at the very least hypersonic missiles aimed at assets in HATO countries where those aircraft are operating from, or they will just continue to escalate.

Of course I can't see HATO just sending planes to Ukraine with HATO pilots alone, they might try a grab for Kaliningrad, which could really get messy and any HATO troops massed up to take Kaliningrad or to enter the conflict in Ukraine as "peacekeepers" would also require those massed troop and armour targets to get nuked.

Ukraine sending troops to kill Russians does not justify nukes but a HATO invasion of Kaliningrad or to help Kiev in Ukraine does justify the use of tactical nukes on HATO countries territory.

Russia was too fast at retiring good plateforms and not upgrafing them.

They lack a numbers plane... it should have been the MiG-35 because it is modern and can use all their new missiles and weapons and will eventually have a modern AESA radar and IRST and targeting pods, but I suspect they want to skip a generation and see what MiG can come up with in terms of a cheap light 5th gen fighter... if they can get moderate stealth with low operational costs and an affordable price even if it is the size of a LIFT then it makes sense to wait for that to produce in numbers to fill gaps and also use wingman type drones to bolster numbers, but at the end of the day making lots of LIFT sized numbers 5th gen fighters like the MiG one or Checkmate if MiG fail is going to fill their only real problem.

For the west their lack of a unified IADS is their problem and their advantage in aircraft numbers will rapidly be whittled away in a conflict against a peer enemy.... so good for colonial conflicts against peasants, but not good for the fights they have been picking recently.

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zare

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Post n°781

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

zare Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:51 pm

Isos wrote:
Mig-29A with 4 kh-59mk2 is a beast.

That depends solely on what it's going against.

MiG-29 operated by Serbia when NATO attacked them, if they were equipped by Kinzhals it wouldn't matter because of adversary's air supremacy. In opposite scenario, with full air control on your side, you just need something to reach altitude and have enough bearing to take the load of the missile on the hull. Example is AC-130 which is such a stupid concept that works because its used inside a doctrine. If there is any sort of normal AA around, AC-130 is parked 5000 miles away.

I'm just waiting for the data on design of MiG-41. MiG-31 is already the most lethal aircraft ever, can't wait to see the successor. MiG-25 the predecessor was quite inferior to it, yet it managed to score clean kills against a 4th gen aircraft operated by USA.

The potential skirmish with NATO is going to look way different than this Russo-Ukrainian land war.
NATO knows this and they would probably go with response measurement first. Russia knows this, and in order to kick back NATO while they're actively trying to disrupt the SMO from their exercise, would have to come up with dosed reaction, just enough to do the job but not enough to show their hand.

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Arkanghelsk

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Post n°782

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Arkanghelsk Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:16 pm

Russia won't need tactical nukes against NATO

Ukraine has much greater manpower, and Russia is handling Ukraine with a fraction of the force size it would use against NATO

On top of it, Ukraine already utilizes heavy equipment from NATO which can be managed by Russia

Satellite and ISR are being used, and with NATO , Russia would knock those assets out

Russia has no need for nukes, NATO if anything would resort to first nuclear use after losing planes as S400 kills those f16, f18, and f35

HARM , storm shadow, scalpel, and such weapons won't do anything to Russia, they can barely get through SHORADS

And NATO won't hold territory like Ukraine does,

Without airpower they will be easy to fight

And we saw what happened to the Ukrainian airforce

At most some drones could slip by, but they are dealt with easily as well

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Regular

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Post n°783

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Regular Fri Jun 02, 2023 2:38 pm

Best to be prepared for doomsday scenarios, but I don’t see why NATO would involve themselves directly at this point. Their airforce wouldn’t save Ukraine and they can’t commit other types of troops.

It’s still better to keep an eye open for sudden increase of NATO reconnaissance missions - especially over the Black Sea. They always precedes sneaky Ukrainian attacks.

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Podlodka77

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Post n°784

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Podlodka77 Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:07 pm

Perhaps the Il-2 should also be returned to service..... Very Happy

The MiG-25 was discontinued in 1984. Although many MiG-31s are out of service, a good part of those planes can still be modernized, while the MiG-25 is scheduled to be decommissioned, because most of the examples are decommissioned after the resource has expired and probably destroyed soon. A good part of the MiG-31 over the years has been preserved and there is a large base of engines from that aircraft, that is everything that was not done with the MiG-25.

The biggest enemy of the MiG-31 aircraft is the age of the platform and this is reflected in the large number of accidents, but the number of operational aircraft will not decrease because there is a certain amount of aircraft that are in reserve and can be returned to service.

This is a text from 2018;

D-30F6 engines were produced from the mid-seventies to the mid-nineties; the timing of their serial production actually coincided with the years of construction of the MiG-31 interceptors. For two decades, the Perm engine-building enterprise has provided engines for all serial aircraft, and in addition, it has created a solid stock of such products. The aerospace forces are still using a similar backlog obtained several decades ago. As the resource develops, the engines are removed from the aircraft and replaced with new ones taken from warehouses.

Nevertheless, the stock of available engines is not infinite, and therefore in the foreseeable future the question of launching the production of new D-30F6 products may arise. As recent events show, the Russian command intends to keep the MiG-31BM for many years, and therefore the aircraft can remain in service until the moment when the supply of engines for them runs out. According to the latest news, the industry is somewhat prepared for this development.

A few days ago, the management of the UEC-Perm Motors enterprise recalled the recent restoration of the production of turbines for D-30F6 engines, and also announced the possibility of resuming the assembly of other units. Thus, upon receipt of an order from the Ministry of Defense, the plant will be able to start producing new engines for existing equipment. However, so far it was only about some real work and possible future events. Terms, volumes and other aspects of the hypothetical production program, for obvious reasons, have not yet been specified.

However, already now, taking into account the development of the aerospace forces, we can say with a certain degree of certainty that the MiG-31BM interceptors will indeed be able to get new engines, although this will happen in the not very near future. The well-known plans of the Ministry of Defense, as well as a number of recent sensational reports, can be the basis for the most daring forecasts, in which there is a place for the D-30F6 engines.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiDnsL17aT_AhUPzIsKHUABCc0QFnoECAkQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftopwar.ru%2F137687-dvigateli-dlya-mig-31-perehvaty-i-kompleks-kinzhal.html&usg=AOvVaw3xxqizaYfJ9evNHIqYNcSB

TO MNZTR

When the MiG-41 finally becomes operational there will be many more operational hypersonic missiles, not just the H47M2 Kinzhal and 3M22 Zircon..

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calripson

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Post n°785

NATO Involvement

calripson Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:06 pm

There will not be any direct NATO involvement using combat troops that risk coffins coming home to NATO countries draped in flags. It's one thing to hang a little Ukrainian flag on your lawn, quite another to see body bags. In America, life in the bubble is good, Nasdaq up 31% this year so far, latest jobs report shows economy doing fine. Support for the Ukraine war is a mile long and an inch deep. Any politician or political party advocating action that results in dead troops will be out of office in a heartbeat. Fifty years ago the American public couldn't stomach losses of 15,000 troops a year in Viet Nam. The standard today is much lower.

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Backman

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Post n°786

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Backman Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:12 pm

Arkanghelsk wrote:There is a lot of talk, that the Ukrainian offensive will begin when NATO begins air exercises in July.

If NATO truly coordinates something with Ukraine, then the decision to keep the mobilized in place will have been a good one

To repel NATO airpower, it is necessary for the S400 in Kaliningrad and Belarus to assist the ZOV force in Ukraine - s400 is capable of 150-250km kills of aircraft at lo-lo-lo profile

Striking NATO aircraft over Ukrainian border will have to be done by those aircrafts, and Mig31 will be the key as well to gun down AWACS and supporting tankers while s400 hits the low flying aircraft as they cross over Kaliningrad, Belarus , and Ukraine

Su35 and Su30 will need air corridors over Belarus to help Mig31

The NATO force could try to drip feed to the frontline, as they already know that if they move in concentration , hypersonic missiles will take them out - Patriot is gone , and they have no mobile air defense, so moving in open is suicide

Nato aircraft will probably fire at Russia and use the alleged Ukraine F-16's as an excuse. But if Russia attacks anything in Poland in return , they will enact article 5 and jump into the war.

The only way to avert this is to attack all decision making centers in Ukraine with overwhelming force. The US embassy and everything. Hitting the US embassy inside Ukraine is still not the act of war that hitting anything in Poland is.

The US is literally threatening to attack Russia proper with Nato and is basically doing it already. Ukraine forces are attacking Belgorod and it sounds like Transnistria is at play too.

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Backman

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Post n°787

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Backman Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:19 pm

zare wrote:

Isos wrote:
Mig-29A with 4 kh-59mk2 is a beast.

NATO knows this and they would probably go with response measurement first. Russia knows this, and in order to kick back NATO while they're actively trying to disrupt the SMO from their exercise, would have to come up with dosed reaction, just enough to do the job but not enough to show their hand.

That has been the story of the whole war and because of Putins lack of response, he is basically getting the Nato war to take Crimea that he wanted to avoid 10 years from now, today. This war was started to avoid that scenario and he's basically getting that today.

Doing the counter offensive during the Nato exercise has probably been the plan all along. And to say that is provocative is a total non statement. It is a declaration of fucking war. Nato literally jumping in to fight Russia in Ukraine to take back everything including Crimea. And hardly even trying to cover it up. They won't succeed at any of this but it should have been avoided.

And maybe it can still be avoided. But not with doing one decision making center attack.

ALAMO

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Post n°788

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

ALAMO Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:23 pm

Looks like today's tikto peremoga costed Ukroisis two tanks.
That's not bad tank to likes ratio ...

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Podlodka77

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Post n°789

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Podlodka77 Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:36 pm

To BACKMAN...

What is happening to you, what kind of panic is this ?
NATO will do this NATO will do that... Are the Russians' hands tied perhaps ? I dont think so..
People, let the Russian top brass do their job for once. Neither you nor I know what goes on behind the scenes...

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sepheronx

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Post n°790

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

sepheronx Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:59 pm

Podlodka77 wrote:To BACKMAN...

What is happening to you, what kind of panic is this ?
NATO will do this NATO will do that... Are the Russians' hands tied perhaps ? I dont think so..
People, let the Russian top brass do their job for once. Neither you nor I know what goes on behind the scenes...

He has been saying it for a while. Nothing he said ever came to fruition. So he is just doing his typical making shit up.

ALAMO

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Post n°791

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

ALAMO Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:02 pm

Give him some space, one does not become a drama queen with no practice, you know.

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Podlodka77

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Post n°792

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Podlodka77 Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:02 pm

People, if you think that the Russians will allow the demolition of buildings in Moscow or St. Peterburg, then you are very ridiculous.
The same goes for Crimea..
Yes, maybe some object will be more severely damaged (maybe) and the Russians will keep quiet about it, but Russian cities will never experience the fate of the cities of Ukroshistan, and if they experience them, then all the western centers and DC will burn..
Demolition of the city also means depopulation of the city and thus it would represent a danger for the Russian regime, but above all for the West. Don't rush anything because as things stand everything is heading towards that anyway.

The Russian state suffered severely more than seven decades ago, and any serious attack on major Russian cities can cause hell and the use of weapons that you "know" will NEVER be used.
If you think that you are smart and that there are half-literate idiots in the Russian state top, I don't think so...
And so stop with "NATO will do this or NATO will do that". Then at the end NATO will smoke a cock - with the COLD aroma of Siberia....

Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43 - Page 32 Maxres17

ucmvulcan

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Post n°793

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

ucmvulcan Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:14 pm

Arkanghelsk wrote:There is a lot of talk, that the Ukrainian offensive will begin when NATO begins air exercises in July.

If NATO truly coordinates something with Ukraine, then the decision to keep the mobilized in place will have been a good one

To repel NATO airpower, it is necessary for the S400 in Kaliningrad and Belarus to assist the ZOV force in Ukraine - s400 is capable of 150-250km kills of aircraft at lo-lo-lo profile

Striking NATO aircraft over Ukrainian border will have to be done by those aircrafts, and Mig31 will be the key as well to gun down AWACS and supporting tankers while s400 hits the low flying aircraft as they cross over Kaliningrad, Belarus , and Ukraine

Su35 and Su30 will need air corridors over Belarus to help Mig31

The NATO force could try to drip feed to the frontline, as they already know that if they move in concentration , hypersonic missiles will take them out - Patriot is gone , and they have no mobile air defense, so moving in open is suicide

Nah, you have the empire misjudged. Is Ukraine stupid enough to launch Jonestown 2.0 this summer? Yes. Does NATO have members such as Poland who would go rogue during exercises to strike Russia wirh aircraft? Yes. However, so long as Russia does not strike NATO first there is very little NATO will avtually do. The US and Eurotrash don't want direct conflict with Russia. They want to make money and enslave Ukraine with massive amounts of debt. Its an Economic Hitman program writ large. Read John Perkins if you can because our policy in Ukraine is oh so predictable. You see the scam is that Europr goes through its weapons first. First are the made in USSR weapons, then made by Eurotrash, and after that the Eurotrash has to buy overpriced American weapons. As it stands, Ukraine's leadership is not the sort you would want if you wanted to launch a major offensive. They would rather use theirbforces for terrorist attacks and symbolic victory. IF there is an offensive this summer its Zaprozhiye Nuclear Power.v that hot war around a power plant could kill millions of Ukrainians means nothing to the nazi banderastani elite. After all, American dollars, Euros, and British pounds are just as usable in Monaco as they are in Chicken Kiev. The US and Eurotrash will not do anything to stop the Ukes from comitting mass suicide, but they are generally not going to get too much involved themselves.

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Godric

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Post n°794

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Godric Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:33 pm

ucmvulcan wrote:

Arkanghelsk wrote:There is a lot of talk, that the Ukrainian offensive will begin when NATO begins air exercises in July.

If NATO truly coordinates something with Ukraine, then the decision to keep the mobilized in place will have been a good one

To repel NATO airpower, it is necessary for the S400 in Kaliningrad and Belarus to assist the ZOV force in Ukraine - s400 is capable of 150-250km kills of aircraft at lo-lo-lo profile

Striking NATO aircraft over Ukrainian border will have to be done by those aircrafts, and Mig31 will be the key as well to gun down AWACS and supporting tankers while s400 hits the low flying aircraft as they cross over Kaliningrad, Belarus , and Ukraine

Su35 and Su30 will need air corridors over Belarus to help Mig31

The NATO force could try to drip feed to the frontline, as they already know that if they move in concentration , hypersonic missiles will take them out - Patriot is gone , and they have no mobile air defense, so moving in open is suicide

Nah, you have the empire misjudged. Is Ukraine stupid enough to launch Jonestown 2.0 this summer? Yes. Does NATO have members such as Poland who would go rogue during exercises to strike Russia wirh aircraft? Yes. However, so long as Russia does not strike NATO first there is very little NATO will avtually do. The US and Eurotrash don't want direct conflict with Russia. They want to make money and enslave Ukraine with massive amounts of debt. Its an Economic Hitman program writ large. Read John Perkins if you can because our policy in Ukraine is oh so predictable. You see the scam is that Europr goes through its weapons first. First are the made in USSR weapons, then made by Eurotrash, and after that the Eurotrash has to buy overpriced American weapons. As it stands, Ukraine's leadership is not the sort you would want if you wanted to launch a major offensive. They would rather use theirbforces for terrorist attacks and symbolic victory. IF there is an offensive this summer its Zaprozhiye Nuclear Power.v that hot war around a power plant could kill millions of Ukrainians means nothing to the nazi banderastani elite. After all, American dollars, Euros, and British pounds are just as usable in Monaco as they are in Chicken Kiev. The US and Eurotrash will not do anything to stop the Ukes from comitting mass suicide, but they are generally not going to get too much involved themselves.

Poland has decided to back down from supplying Ukraine F-16s

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Isos

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Post n°795

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Isos Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:40 pm

They didn't want to give the unused mig-29, let alone their f-16.

As of now noone said they will give any f-16. Even the US won't give the one sitting in the desert.

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Backman

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Post n°796

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Backman Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:03 pm

ALAMO wrote:Give him some space, one does not become a drama queen with no practice, you know.

Are you too big of a pussy to hit the US embassy in Kiev with a Kinzal ?

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Broski

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Post n°797

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Broski Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:32 pm

Backman wrote:

ALAMO wrote:Give him some space, one does not become a drama queen with no practice, you know.

Are you too big of a pussy to hit the US embassy in Kiev with a Kinzal ?

Just curious, what does hitting the US embassy in Kiev achieve for the Russians?

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Mir

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Post n°798

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Mir Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:39 pm

Personally I think the British Embassy would be a nice alternative for the "little mistake" that happened in Serbia Laughing

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nomadski

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Post n°799

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

nomadski Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:41 pm

No F16 crap? Perhaps they decided too many downed F16 by S300 , is bad for sales ! No semi-crap F35 ? Perhaps they decided too many downed semi- crap F35 by S400 , is bad for sales ! No stomach for body bags coming back to Europe or America ? Perhaps they decided to win the election and let their boys print money and pass big bucks to MIC ? No threats of using nukes ? Perhaps they decided that bomb- shelters are no suitable life- style .

Both Russia and America gave plenty of warnings to each other in Syria , to avoid any direct casualties . They still do not directly attack territory under other's control . So the most likely outcome in Ukrs is a war by proxy by NATO , using existing methods of providing drones and missiles and other equipment and training . With no direct involvement . However , one can predict the supply of longer range weapons . I predict also that in the Sea , we shall have mini-subs , that will , if not challenged , disrupt Shipping .

It is probably going to take a few more years , well at least two , to liberate the East . And then the southern coast , to secure shipping in Black Sea . It is only by advancing and gaining and liberating territory , that this will end . I see no other solution , than the complete withdrawal of Ukrs forces from Russian speaking regions .

kvs, GunshipDemocracy, owais.usmani, Broski and jon_deluxe like this post

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Post n°800

Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

Regular Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:59 pm

ALAMO wrote:Looks like today's tikto peremoga costed Ukroisis two tanks.
That's not bad tank to likes ratio ...

At this point, IMR loss is more important than tank loss.
They are very short of them and if they will want to conduct offensive operations they will need them.

It also means that MRAP raids are not cutting anymore and need to be supported by tanks and engineering vehicles

GarryB likes this post

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Russian special military operation in Ukraine #43

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