Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #5

Interesting postings for job vacancies in Moscow from JSC Russian Space Systems (part of Roscosmos):

galvanizer - from 60 thousand rubles before taxes (? );
assembler of electronic equipment and devices 4-6category - from 65 thousand rubles net;
leading engineer of radio-electronic systems - from 60 to 70 thousand rubles net.

Considering that positions are in Moscow, where decent construction worker can make over 100 thousand ruble, quality of the cadres that apply might leave much to be desired.
No wonder they have so much problems to attract top talent.

https://hh-ru.translate.goog/vacancy/84056811?from=employer&hhtmFrom=employer&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://hh-ru.translate.goog/vacancy/79613808?from=employer&hhtmFrom=employer&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://hh-ru.translate.goog/vacancy/75695163?from=employer&hhtmFrom=employer&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Russia’s Bion-M2 biosatellite to be launched no later than July 31, 2024 — project head

https://tass.com/science/1680971

caveat emptor wrote:Interesting postings for job vacancies in Moscow from JSC Russian Space Systems (part of Roscosmos):

galvanizer - from 60 thousand rubles before taxes (? );
assembler of electronic equipment and devices 4-6category - from 65 thousand rubles net;
leading engineer of radio-electronic systems - from 60 to 70 thousand rubles net.

Considering that positions are in Moscow, where decent construction worker can make over 100 thousand ruble, quality of the cadres that apply might leave much to be desired.
No wonder they have so much problems to attract top talent.

https://hh-ru.translate.goog/vacancy/84056811?from=employer&hhtmFrom=employer&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://hh-ru.translate.goog/vacancy/79613808?from=employer&hhtmFrom=employer&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
https://hh-ru.translate.goog/vacancy/75695163?from=employer&hhtmFrom=employer&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

1. The minimum limit is specified for electroplating. The vacancy description also states below:
- the possibility of obtaining additional higher education on the basis of the enterprise (master's degree, postgraduate study)
- social support programs for employees
- social package (after passing the probationary period)
- the salary level is discussed at the interview with the successful candidate

2. The salary of a specialist of the 4th category and a specialist of the 6th category may vary by 30-50%. The same as with the first vacancy - a social package, the opportunity to get a specialized higher education, salary is discussed at the interview.

3. The same story.

In addition, you can get acquainted with a more complete list of vacancies - and see that the average salary for them is 80-100 thousand rubles.: https://moskva.jobfilter.ru/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F/%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8B?cid%5B%5D=88126&page=1

Now answer me:
1. How much will it cost to get a higher education in an engineering specialty related to the production of spacecraft in the West?
2. How many companies, for example, in the United States compensate up to half the cost of renting housing to their employees, and what is this amount in dollars?
3. How many companies in the West provide a social package (medical insurance, service in departmental medical institutions for the employee and his family members, departmental kindergartens for the employee's children, preferential vouchers to sanatoriums, by the way, they are also departmental)?

Working at state-owned manufacturing enterprises is now like slowly climbing a gentle slope. You know that your probability of losing your job is minimal, your earnings will grow slowly, you can get an education and after 10-15 years of work leave for a higher position if you show proper initiative.

flamming_python wrote:
They're a bunch of greedy shits and these industries are going to end up with a major deficit of cadres because of such pathetic salaries. The entire industries. Every employer seems to be convinced that electronic engineers grow on trees and that there will always be plenty of graduates to recruit from

The number of employees of the Russian space industry is now 180,000 people.
Suppose we want to pay them an average of 100,000 rubles a month. So, with a salary of 100,000 rubles a month, the employer will pay another 42 thousand rubles in taxes.
In total, each employee needs 142,000 rubles per month.
This is 25,560,000,000 rubles per month only the wage fund. Or 306,720,000,000 rubles a year. Only on employee salaries. Excluding the costs of maintaining fixed assets, production costs, R&D and modernization costs.

The share of wages in the cost of production is approximately about 17%. Round it up to 20%

Thus, the Russian space industry should produce products worth more than 1.8 trillion rubles annually (taking into account the profit margin of 20%). Note that this means that annually production will require financing in the amount of at least 1.533 trillion rubles annually.

And now the real data on the financing of the space industry in Russia:
According to the data published on the website of Federal Target Programs, in 2023, the current budget assignments for the FCP amount to 112.3 billion rubles, and in 2024 – 118.5 billion rubles. The budget forecast for 2025 was also 118.5 billion rubles. At the same time, the materials for the draft budget indicate that in 2023, 133.1 billion rubles (+21 billion rubles) will be allocated to the FCP, in 2024 – 140.5 billion rubles (+22 billion rubles), in 2025 – 148.5 billion rubles (+30 billion rubles).
https://www.vedomosti.ru/society/articles/2022/10/05/943919-pravitelstvo-uvelichit-finansirovanie-kosmicheskoi-programmi

Now think about the adequacy of your requirements in conditions when the Russian space program is funded by less than 10% of the need in order to provide the salary level that you would like.

Scorpius wrote:
Now answer me:
1. How much will it cost to get a higher education in an engineering specialty related to the production of spacecraft in the West?
2. How many companies, for example, in the United States compensate up to half the cost of renting housing to their employees, and what is this amount in dollars?
3. How many companies in the West provide a social package (medical insurance, service in departmental medical institutions for the employee and his family members, departmental kindergartens for the employee's children, preferential vouchers to sanatoriums, by the way, they are also departmental)?

Working at state-owned manufacturing enterprises is now like slowly climbing a gentle slope. You know that your probability of losing your job is minimal, your earnings will grow slowly, you can get an education and after 10-15 years of work leave for a higher position if you show proper initiative.

It is obvious from your questions that you've never traveled much or even less lived and worked outside of the country, but i'll humor you with some answers.
1) West is a very broad term. Generally, in Western Europe cost will be zero or very low, in Canada higher and highest in US.
Even with US as most expensive option for studying, very few students will pay full cost of school. That especially goes for engineering degrees. Also, there are many categories of schools in US, with state schools being completely free or with low cost for residents.  Price is also dependent on material status of the student. In many cases international students that enrolled in school based on merit ( high grade or test scores) will pay zero, as they'll  get free ride scholarships.  Same goes for domestic students that are good students. In general, Ivy league schools (Columbia, Princeton, Harvard, etc) will cover most of the school cost even before scholarships.
Engineering degrees are not the most expensive in US. Medical degrees are.
2) That really depends on the company and the state you live in. There's no fixed cost in dollars, but reimbursed costs are tied to state of local real estate market. If you work for federal defense contractors your cost will be based on something called Basic Allowance for Housing.

https://veteran.com/bah-rates-state/

3) For this type of work every company will offer medical insurance, pension plan (401K or IRA or both) ,stock options and other benefits.
There's no departmental medical facilities or kindergartens unless you work directly for the government.  Private companies will pay annual bonus at the end of the year. It can vary depending on position and financial results of said company.
Regarding schooling, when my Serbian friend, that worked for Pfizer, wanted to go for master degree, company covered the cost fully.  And that is a pretty common corporate practice, as companies has an interest in paying for your additional education, while that cost is fully tax deductible for them.

Let's  get back to Roscosmos situation.  Being that those jobs are in Moscow, that has very high cost of living, salaries are very uncompetitive. This would be ok salary if they worked, for example, in Pskov, which has much lower cost of living. I mentioned Pskov, because i was there in 2018 and 2019, and know the cost of living expenses.
Second, Russian privately-owned companies pay much more competitive salaries. So any job positions that are in high need ( programers, machinists and such) people will go to work for private companies.
And, last thing, monthly salaries in the range of 600 usd are low by any degree.  You can get that salary easily in Serbian interior with high school degree working for car parts manufacturers, for example. Cost of living will be lower than in Moscow, i can assure you of that.

Scorpius wrote:

The number of employees of the Russian space industry is now 180,000 people.

Thus, the Russian space industry should produce products worth more than 1.8 trillion rubles annually (taking into account the profit margin of 20%). Note that this means that annually production will require financing in the amount of at least 1.533 trillion rubles annually.

And now the real data on the financing of the space industry in Russia:
According to the data published on the website of Federal Target Programs, in 2023, the current budget assignments for the FCP amount to 112.3 billion rubles, and in 2024 – 118.5 billion rubles. The budget forecast for 2025 was also 118.5 billion rubles. At the same time, the materials for the draft budget indicate that in 2023, 133.1 billion rubles (+21 billion rubles) will be allocated to the FCP, in 2024 – 140.5 billion rubles (+22 billion rubles), in 2025 – 148.5 billion rubles (+30 billion rubles).
https://www.vedomosti.ru/society/articles/2022/10/05/943919-pravitelstvo-uvelichit-finansirovanie-kosmicheskoi-programmi

Now think about the adequacy of your requirements in conditions when the Russian space program is funded by less than 10% of the need in order to provide the salary level that you would like.

Your numbers show you that number of 180k employees is too high. That's absolutely insane number considering how much revenue Roscosmos has. Direct result is a very low productivity per worker. I understand that government owned companies have a social component in their agenda, but this number of employees is completely bonkers when you compare it to the results. I would like to see a profile of employed personnel, and what percentage is bureaucracy and other non productive positions.

[quote="caveat emptor"]

It is obvious from your questions that you've never traveled much or even less lived and worked outside of the country, but i'll humor you with some answers.

The last time I checked - I was on an English-speaking forum - and not you on a Russian-speaking one. So it is obvious that you are inside your own information bubble, but you have the audacity to accuse me of such a thing.
So, in my travel record there is Egypt, Spain, Montenegro, Belarus, the European part of Russia from the White Sea to the Black Sea, I have tried to swim in the White, Baltic, Black, Azov, Red, Adriatic (unfortunately, I missed the chance to plunge into the waters of the Balearic Sea). I have talked to residents of India and China, Costa Rica, most European countries, African countries, Malaysia, Australia - and the devil knows how many other countries on hundreds of different topics. But, of course, you come and say that I haven't been anywhere and don't understand anything. Lol. Your ego may be bothering you when walking, man.

Generally, in Western Europe cost will be zero or very low, in Canada higher

None of them is an independent serious player in the industry. Seriously, the Canadian space program? The European Space Program? This is all nothing more than a joke. It is obvious that none of them has the ability to maintain their own technological circuit in cosmonautics. So far, there are only a few countries in the world that can do this - and most of them are somehow based on Soviet space technologies. So yes - space education in Western Europe or Canada will be free - because you will not be able to become a serious specialist in this field there.

Even with US as most expensive option for studying, very few students will pay full cost of school.

Yeah, that's why the United States has been built all its history at the expense of repatriates from other countries. So it was 200 years ago - so it continues now. The American education system is one of the least effective in the world.
Just wipe the lipstick off that pig - she's still a pig, who are you trying to fool?

That especially goes for engineering degrees. Also, there are many categories of schools in US, with state schools being completely free or with low cost for residents.  

God, don't tell me you're trying to present the opportunity to get a basic education as an achievement. In Russia, it is certainly free, standardized throughout the country - you can study at a school located in the middle of nowhere with fewer than 100 students, and at the same time receive the same quality education as students in large cities - and as a result, you will really be able to pass the entrance exams to the best universities in Russia, coming from the province. And yes - EVERY citizen of Russia has the right to FREE higher education. And if you get paid tuition, you won't have to pay off your student loan until you're 40.

Price is also dependent on material status of the student. In many cases international students that enrolled in school based on merit ( high grade or test scores) will pay zero, as they'll  get free ride scholarships.  Same goes for domestic students that are good students. In general, Ivy league schools (Columbia, Princeton, Harvard, etc) will cover most of the school cost even before scholarships.
Engineering degrees are not the most expensive in US. Medical degrees are.

In Russia, you still get a better education for FREE. And on a paid basis, it will cost many times cheaper. Currently, in one of the most expensive and prestigious universities, MSU - the most expensive faculty will cost about $ 6,000 per year.

https://veteran.com/bah-rates-state/

Why are you implicating veterans here? In Russia, for those who have served in the army under a contract (just a contractor, not a combatant), training at any university in the country is free of charge with priority admission. There are compensation payments and many benefits for veterans.

Let's  get back to Roscosmos situation.  Being that those jobs are in Moscow, that has very high cost of living, salaries are very uncompetitive. This would be ok salary if they worked, for example, in Pskov, which has much lower cost of living. I mentioned Pskov, because i was there in 2018 and 2019, and know the cost of living expenses.
Second, Russian privately-owned companies pay much more competitive salaries. So any job positions that are in high need ( programers, machinists and such) people will go to work for private companies.
And, last thing, monthly salaries in the range of 600 usd are low by any degree.  You can get that salary easily in Serbian interior with high school degree working for car parts manufacturers, for example. Cost of living will be lower than in Moscow, i can assure you of that.

And again - the salary will not be $ 600. This will be $ 600 plus superannuation, bonus payments (quarterly or annual), preferential trips to departmental sanatoriums for the whole family, departmental kindergartens and schools, the opportunity to get a specialized higher education and rise to a serious managerial level. In the end, salaries at Roscosmos enterprises are now either equal to the average salary in the region, or exceed the average regional level.

Russia is lucky enough that it has vast heritage and knowledge left behind by Soviet Union, when it comes to space. Even with that, it is a distant third in space launches, while it was first at the time of SU dissolution. This is an objective fact. Many competencies were lost, as it is shown even in recent times.
Your frustration should be directed toward people in charge of Roskosmos and not some anonymous on a fringe forum.
Current state of Roskosmos and whole Russian space industry leaves much to be desired. There are many plans and nice looking paper projects, without serious financial backing. Even Russian government is suspicious of numerous big plans, as industry has been mired in scandals for years. Just look at what has been going on around Vostochny and how many people were arrested for corruption.
With regards to present situation, they should finally get more financing and then, maybe, things will get better.
As for workers remuneration, there is objective information from their own job postings. I'll take your claim on benefits and other compensation with a reservation, as this is obviously something you didn't even try to back up with anything. Fact is there, in black and white, of the amount of salary they offer and what type of requirements anyone who applies need to have. All postings ask for previous multi-year work experience. I've just made a point that with those salaries they'll have a problem of attracting any serious engineering talent in the country. Due to massive investment in aviation industry, this is even more true than before.
In the meantime, other countries are not sitting idle and are moving forward. India is a great example. Maybe they should objectively assess their own shortcomings at present time and try to pick up good things from competitors. Pride and chest thumping will not get them far.

The amount of space launches done by Russia was reduced due to several factors. Not least of which is that, now that modern Russian satellites have much longer lifetimes, they simply do not need to launch them as often as they used to in Soviet times. When you have satellites which only last a year or two, like the old film based reconnaissance satellites, of course you need to put new satellites up all the time. If the satellites now last 6 years, then you need a third or a sixth of the launches to happen. Even in case of GLONASS satellite lifetime rose from 3 years (GLONASS) to 7 years (GLONASS-M) then 10 years (GLONASS-K).

Soyuz-2.1b also has more payload than the older Soyuz which means you can launch multiple satellites with one flight more often.

As for Vostochny, the truth is the Soyuz launch pad is already operational, and the Angara launch pad is in an advanced state of construction. Plus if you compare it with other similar projects worldwide like the Ariane 6 launch pad (which is still not operational), the Soyuz launch pad at Vostochny did not take that long to build and become operational.

Lifetime of satellites is more or less similar for everyone and it did got longer due to advancing tech. For all countries.
When I mentioned Vostochny was to give example of corruption around whole thing. Here's one example:

https://www.rbc.ru/politics/11/11/2019/5dc927099a794744b54240bf

Quote from VVP' comments from the article:

On Monday, November 11, Russian President Vladimir Putin, at a meeting with members of the government, said that it was not possible to restore order in the construction of the Vostochny cosmodrome in the Amur region, despite criminal cases being opened.

“It has been said a hundred times: “Work transparently. Big money is allocated. The project is also practically national in nature.” No! They steal by hundreds of millions, hundreds of millions. Several dozen criminal cases have already been initiated. Court decisions have already been made, people are in prison. No. It has still not been possible to establish proper order there,” said the head of state.

Lifetime of satellites was certainly not the same for Russia. The Soviets were like a decade or two behind the US in electronics and this also manifested itself in satellite lifetimes. GPS satellites had an initial design lifetime of 5 years being designed in the late 1970s. Some even lasted over a decade. GLONASS satellites had an initial design lifetime of 1 single year being designed in the early 1980s and only later was it boosted to 3 years. Both constellations being contemporaries.

So, no, you simply cannot compare the launch requirements in Soviet times with current launch requirements. Current launch requirement to keep the same capabilities operational is probably like a third of what it was in Soviet times.

As for the issues with corruption in the construction of Vostochny, those are well known, but the fact is the infrastructure is still getting built.

Vostochny is a symptom of inefficiency of Roskosmos. Russia had to go through with construction, because it is a question of national security and because there are numerous question marks around faith of Baikonur. Fact that they had to put whole process of construction under control of public prosecutor speaks volumes about problems in company's structure.
In any case, as always, future will show if Russian space program will be able to be revived under management of Roskosmos or it will have to be completely rebuilt as an entity.
Look at recent example of USC. Due to constant bad performance, VTB took over the management of.the corporation. Maybe such solution is better for Roskosmos, as well. Rosatom would be a decent partner.
With inability to attract best engineering talent and constant corner cutting approach, i doubt it can survive as independent entity.

Pressurized satellites are a Soviet peculiarity. Since launch costs were not an issue, it was simpler to launch shorter-lived satellites more often. After 1990 this situation inverted and launch costs became a major constraint.

There is no particular reason why Soviet space electronics would not work in a vacuum. Nothing about solid state parts requires ambient air. The only issue is degassing of motherboards and chip packages in orbit that can introduce damage. Silicon wafers do not degass themselves to damage. Solid state capacitors were available decades ago even though electrolytic capacitors are the cheapest. Degradation of parts by radiation which is substantial in the Van Allen belt gaps where satellites are inserted, justifies a rapid turn-over for satellites if you can afford it. Putting a satellite into orbit for 10 years is not some epic achievement but a financial necessity. It's nice to make ICs and packaging more resistant to radiation, but there is still degradation. The balance of costs now justifies longer duration, vacuum certified components compared to the Soviet period.

Too much wanking about western "superiority" that is pure cringe.

caveat emptor wrote:
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/11/11/2019/5dc927099a794744b54240bf

Quote from VVP' comments from the article:

On Monday, November 11, Russian President Vladimir Putin, at a meeting with members of the government, said that it was not possible to restore order in the construction of the Vostochny cosmodrome in the Amur region, despite criminal cases being opened.

Политика , 11 ноя 2019, 12:20

Подробнее на РБК:
https://www.rbc.ru/politics/11/11/2019/5dc927099a794744b54240bf


Monday 11 Nov 2019 four years ago.  If you didn't notice that four  years has passed and Roscomsoss is under the guy who made Avangard or Zircon fly then well i cannot argue      

I've noticed. I am actually cheering for Borisov because he is an engineer and officer who understands technical side of what Roskosmos should do. He needs to completely overhaul culture of the establishment. Raising salaries for key engineering positions would be first good step. And bringing some new blood into management. Preferably, people that are complete outsiders.
As for the administrative and managerial rot around Vostochny, these guys are in charge:

The Prosecutor General's Office took special control over the construction of the Vostochny cosmodrome
https://ria.ru/20211119/kosmodrom-1759745763.html?utm_source=button_read_on_ria

Trotting out corruption.

State Department Navalny theatre. The Vostochny corruption got busted hard several years ago but we still have these clowns yapping about it. I guess we should keep on bringing up Al Capone when talking about the USA.

The west has an impressive accomplishment in the form of convincing many saps around world about how squeaky clean and advanced it is. The massive corruption in the west is dressed up as proper procurement. Think of the money flowing through the ESA (and NASA) and what that gives in terms of launchers, launching and other other space related equipment and activity. The PPP factor compared to Russia is over 10:1. But Russia is "failing" while the precious west is "winning". I guess when western oligarch parasites get lots of filthy lucre, then that is "winning". The credulity required to swallow this BS is something else. It is somehow transitioning into a type of Stockholm syndrome.