T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

KoTeMoRe wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Isn't the T-72B3 winning against the Chinese tank in the Biathlon?  Isn't China in third place?

Anyway, I just read they were not impressed.  That was it.  No explanation.  But seeing as T-72's and T-90's are still going to be Russia's main tank for quite some time, I think it may be in their best interest to upgrade them to the best they can be for now.

China is in the third place indeed so I don't see what is wrong with the B3.

I stood by TR1's idea that the T-72B3 still lacks the proper armor upgrades needed to deal with modern ammunition.  So that is the problem and I believe mod also sees that as well.  Add in that the FCS maybe not modern either is an issue (but still has modern imagers).  So maybe a newer armor package and fcs of newest T-90 variant would work out to be what is needed.

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Isn't the T-72B3 winning against the Chinese tank in the Biathlon?  Isn't China in third place?

Anyway, I just read they were not impressed.  That was it.  No explanation.  But seeing as T-72's and T-90's are still going to be Russia's main tank for quite some time, I think it may be in their best interest to upgrade them to the best they can be for now.

Russia won the tournament. All the other teams besides China are using T-72B3s so I think it is safe to assume that the Russian team won because of their training. China doesn't have a a rich history in tank warfare so they may have scored so high because of their tank. There are a lot of variables in this.

The T-72B3 was also chosen because it is a cheaper alternative to the more advanced T-72B2. I don't remember much about the T-72B2 and with the coming of the T-14 there has to be more advanced technology now that could be incorporated into a T-72B3 upgrade. Nevertheless, it is almost always best to pay a little more for to have something better done, even if the situation with military spending back then was a lot different than today.

I agree that the T-72B2 Rokatka was a good upgrade. More advanced than current upgrade. Maybe they should have gone that route even if it was more expensive. With what we know of T-90AM and soon T-90A3, I think they can manage to come up for T-72B4 similar armor as B2 but with better FCS.

Don't know if I am wrong but it seems like T-72Bxx doesn't receive "Shtora" APS like T-90

Yes it did... All ERA was removed, as were the side skirts. 

No T-72 in service uses Shtora, though they probably could. 

I suspect the new model will be carry-over from the T-90B3, and the T-90B3 from the Armata... Expect to see Relikt, and the new reactive tiles if this is the case.

T-72B2 was a great vehicle, it just came at the wrong time...and even now, would be too expensive. 

I found the direct quotes from A. Terlikov (I'll post them later) and it seems this upgrade centers around more protection. FCS improvements are possible.

Russian team was 7 minutes ahead of the Chinese one, which used a Type-96A of some variation. It is funny, because the Type-96 was firing on the move no faster than the T-72B3. There goes the *Type has the better FCS, suspension, and stabilization* bull crap that was spewed last year.

Yes, found those accusations and rapid conclusion jumping without further knowledge of the FCS rather amateurish, because that is not how you compare FCS especially when driving over smooth ground and firing APFSDS rounds while all other competitors were firing HEAT rounds which have lower velocity and higher dispersion. I would say it was more the case of good training with combination of being more willing to risk to get some points since it was a sprint and time is important, however they lost time due to malfunctions and had to switch to a spare tank.

Russia won the tournament. All the other teams besides China are using T-72B3s so I think it is safe to assume that the Russian team won because of their training. China doesn't have a a rich history in tank warfare so they may have scored so high because of their tank. There are a lot of variables in this.

China may have not the richest history in tank warfare, but it is false to assume that they have little or no focus on it, they are the strongest tank fleet in focus of training and modernisation in the world after russia. They lay a higher focus on their ground forces, capabilities and modernisation than US does, which in fact is not suprisingly good in ground forces and lack alot of training, discipline and technology.

The T-72B3 was also chosen because it is a cheaper alternative to the more advanced T-72B2. I don't remember much about the T-72B2 and with the coming of the T-14 there has to be more advanced technology now that could be incorporated into a T-72B3 upgrade. Nevertheless, it is almost always best to pay a little more for to have something better done, even if the situation with military spending back then was a lot different than today.

Yes, the coming with T-14 and the breakthroughts with "Prorif-2/3" are an indication that they have already spend money on new technologies how to improve tanks, meaning they could be more keen now to invest in proper upgrades for T-72B's than they were before due the relative high costs for an already older tank of a past generation, but now they could, time will tell.

I stood by TR1's idea that the T-72B3 still lacks the proper armor upgrades needed to deal with modern ammunition. So that is the problem and I believe mod also sees that as well. Add in that the FCS maybe not modern either is an issue (but still has modern imagers). So maybe a newer armor package and fcs of newest T-90 variant would work out to be what is needed.

The question is how much willing is there to upgrade them to get closer to T-90A or even AM besides the existing T-90A technology of how to armor them. My guess would be the same as Mike E's they would field them with Relikt which is already a massive upgrade in armor-wise.

I agree that the T-72B2 Rokatka was a good upgrade. More advanced than current upgrade. Maybe they should have gone that route even if it was more expensive. With what we know of T-90AM and soon T-90A3, I think they can manage to come up for T-72B4 similar armor as B2 but with better FCS.

I doubt they will spend that much money, i would guess the money difference to upgrade a tank from T-72B or B3 to T-90A has mainly to due with FCS,FLIR and armor, so there is probably not much money difference between just upgrading those 3 things in comperision to upgrading them entirely to T-90A standards. Not to mention they want to upgrade T-90A's to T-90AM, so what would be the point of such an upgrade? I think it would be rather modest upgrade to lower cost to upgrade a bigger fleet since upgrades for more tanks than rather few glorified tanks is more effecient in the bigger picture.

Yes it did... All ERA was removed, as were the side skirts.

No T-72 in service uses Shtora, though they probably could.

I suspect the new model will be carry-over from the T-90B3, and the T-90B3 from the Armata... Expect to see Relikt, and the new reactive tiles if this is the case.

T-72B2 was a great vehicle, it just came at the wrong time...and even now, would be too expensive.

I found the direct quotes from A. Terlikov (I'll post them later) and it seems this upgrade centers around more protection. FCS improvements are possible.

The stripping of side skirts and ERA housing, does not necessairly mean they wanted to get every single weight saving measure they could do. I rather suspect that they stripped them because sideskirts of the T-72 are designed in that way to break off when scratching against trees, walls or any other harder object that design is there to prevent sideskirts getting pushed into the fuel tanks not to losse important fuel. We saw last year several tanks among have lost ERA fitted side skirts on the curse.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

sepheronx wrote:This is much needed as I read somewhere that the mod were not particularly happy with the performance of T-72B3.  So this upgrade will definitely give the T-72B3 the capabilities closest to the T-90AM without breaking the bank.  And such a tank would really benefit the Russian army for years to come, even in reserves.

You mean, they're not happy with how they performed in the Ukraine

Why weren't the MoD happy with the B3? The fact is that on the roughly 15 B3's seen until now, only 6 were disabled/destroyed, 2 captured (1 recaptured one destroyed). The other issue is the very shaky operational intelligence they got.

For instance Two T-72 were stuck on a minefield during Debal, there was nothing provided to the Militia to tow them out. Same for Sanzharovka assault. The tanks were simply told there was stronghold around there without proper intelligence. Result the tanks went in, blew up a couple of Ukrop tincans, then got stuck in a minefield and got hit by ATGM.

But suddenly same tank in August, was preying on Ukrop steel like it was manned by Mikhail Wittmanskis ...

The performance of the T72B3 might be bad in comparison with say the 96A/G that is aligned on TankBiathlon, but I see nothing wrong with in in Ukraine. Bar operationnal intelligence and use of the asset.

I don't know why they weren't happy, I'm just going by what Sepheronx reported.

But if they are unhappy and as a solution have come up with a new small upgrade giving it new armour - then it stands to reason that they probably weren't dissatisfied because of anything that happened in the Tank Biathlon (where armour protection isn't tested), nor anything to do with its everyday exploitation and service (where armour protection isn't tested either).

The only 'event' that the T-72B3 participated in, where the armour could actually be a factor - is the war in the Ukraine.

flamming_python wrote:

KoTeMoRe wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

sepheronx wrote:This is much needed as I read somewhere that the mod were not particularly happy with the performance of T-72B3.  So this upgrade will definitely give the T-72B3 the capabilities closest to the T-90AM without breaking the bank.  And such a tank would really benefit the Russian army for years to come, even in reserves.

You mean, they're not happy with how they performed in the Ukraine

Why weren't the MoD happy with the B3? The fact is that on the roughly 15 B3's seen until now, only 6 were disabled/destroyed, 2 captured (1 recaptured one destroyed). The other issue is the very shaky operational intelligence they got.

For instance Two T-72 were stuck on a minefield during Debal, there was nothing provided to the Militia to tow them out. Same for Sanzharovka assault. The tanks were simply told there was stronghold around there without proper intelligence. Result the tanks went in, blew up a couple of Ukrop tincans, then got stuck in a minefield and got hit by ATGM.

But suddenly same tank in August, was preying on Ukrop steel like it was manned by Mikhail Wittmanskis ...

The performance of the T72B3 might be bad in comparison with say the 96A/G that is aligned on TankBiathlon, but I see nothing wrong with in in Ukraine. Bar operationnal intelligence and use of the asset.

I don't know why they weren't happy, I'm just going by what Sepheronx reported.

But if they are unhappy and as a solution have come up with a new small upgrade giving it new armour - then it stands to reason that they probably weren't dissatisfied because of anything that happened in the Tank Biathlon (where armour protection isn't tested), nor anything to do with its everyday exploitation and service (where armour protection isn't tested either).

The only 'event' that the T-72B3 participated in, where the armour could actually be a factor - is the war in the Ukraine.

Yeah well given it's a T72, Armour will always be a problem...There are enough cheap threats Ukropia can produce that it is rather naive to think that a 40 year old tank, no matter how much you modernize it, is going to be flawless. Take the RK3/Baryer/Skiff problem, as the firing post is remote controlled, you can't even fire back at the Firing point to take out the crew, you're kept guessing where those motherf***** are hiding. Those nasty things are at least as potent as the METIS, which is a guaranteed penetration from almost any angle on the T72B3. Given the guys in front know the damn thing inside out, there's little to protect on the 72. Now there are things that could be done, as awareness suites, better interoperability with the infantry guys, but those need better training for guys around the tank.

IMO the T72 on its initial guise is done for. The T90 that's different. But basically my opinion.

Motorized infantry TSB will get modernized tanks T-72B3 until the end of the year

More than 30 new tanks T-72B3 arrive in motorized infantry formations deployed in Buryatia. These tanks have to replace the T-72B, said the head of the press service of BBO.

MOSCOW, November 5 - RIA Novosti. Motorized Rifle Connect the Eastern Military District stationed in Buryatia, replenish modernized tanks T-72B3 until the end of the year, said the head of the press service, Colonel Alexander Gordeyev TSB.

"Until the end of the year in motorized infantry compound of the Eastern Military District stationed in Buryatia, go modernized tanks T-72B3, instead of T-72B", - he said.

It is noted that in comparison with their predecessors on the T-72B3 equipped with modern means of communication, fire control system, allowing to deliver fire in any weather, at any time of the day. A digital ballistic computer allows several times to reduce the computation time of shooting settings and improve efficiency of target destruction.

It is reported that all adopted the military has received more than 30 new tanks. Currently, the staff of tank crews held a theoretical additional training and preparing to receive military vehicles.

Uralvagonzavod has fulfilled the contract to modernize the T-72B3

MOSCOW, November 17 - RIA Novosti. "Uralvagonzavod" (UVZ) has fulfilled a contract for the modernization in the interests of the Russian Defence Ministry T-72B3, this trend will continue in 2016-2017, said Tuesday the deputy director general of machinery Uralvagonzavod Vyacheslav Halitov.

"The contract is performed in full, no breakdowns and the 2015 we finish early delivery of the T-72B3 in the Russian armed forces. The modernization program of the T-72 will continue in 2016-2017," - he said.

T-72B3 is a version of the T-72 modernized to the level of T-90. Fires 125-mm smoothbore gun, thanks to its modernization have the opportunity to use new armor-piercing projectiles. Accuracy as a place and in motion enhanced by modern tank installed on a ballistic computer, an improved stabilizer and machine tracking.

In addition, T-72B3 has the latest fire control system. Digital ballistic computer allows several times to reduce the time made calculations and increase their efficiency. Thermal sight of the main channel ensures reliable operation of the devices guidance in all weather conditions, regardless of the time of day.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151117/1322700711.html&usg=ALkJrhirz48PtRJPw-JWmBErYvTv79th5w

George1 wrote:Uralvagonzavod has fulfilled the contract to modernize the T-72B3

MOSCOW, November 17 - RIA Novosti. "Uralvagonzavod" (UVZ) has fulfilled a contract for the modernization in the interests of the Russian Defence Ministry T-72B3, this trend will continue in 2016-2017, said Tuesday the deputy director general of machinery Uralvagonzavod Vyacheslav Halitov.

"The contract is performed in full, no breakdowns and the 2015 we finish early delivery of the T-72B3 in the Russian armed forces. The modernization program of the T-72 will continue in 2016-2017," - he said.

T-72B3 is a version of the T-72 modernized to the level of T-90. Fires 125-mm smoothbore gun, thanks to its modernization have the opportunity to use new armor-piercing projectiles. Accuracy as a place and in motion enhanced by modern tank installed on a ballistic computer, an improved stabilizer and machine tracking.

In addition, T-72B3 has the latest fire control system. Digital ballistic computer allows several times to reduce the time made calculations and increase their efficiency. Thermal sight of the main channel ensures reliable operation of the devices guidance in all weather conditions, regardless of the time of day.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=3&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151117/1322700711.html&usg=ALkJrhirz48PtRJPw-JWmBErYvTv79th5w

Curious to actual number delivered this year.

franco wrote:Curious to actual number delivered this year.

Not sure...the total number should be ~850 including the recent deliverys, find the # of them last year, subtract, and there you go.

A final batch of upgraded T-72 tanks has been supplied to the armed forces by Russia’s flagship tank and fighting vehicles maker Ualvagonzavod.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151220/1032041217/russia-tanks-upgrades.html#ixzz3urjlDozr


So now how many in total? Program ended?

George1 wrote:A final batch of upgraded T-72 tanks has been supplied to the armed forces by Russia’s flagship tank and fighting vehicles maker Ualvagonzavod.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151220/1032041217/russia-tanks-upgrades.html#ixzz3urjlDozr


So now how many in total? Program ended?

Over 800 so far. The program is not over, but no more B3's will be produced until more orders (for the new year) come in.

Mike E wrote:

George1 wrote:A final batch of upgraded T-72 tanks has been supplied to the armed forces by Russia’s flagship tank and fighting vehicles maker Ualvagonzavod.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20151220/1032041217/russia-tanks-upgrades.html#ixzz3urjlDozr


So now how many in total? Program ended?

Over 800 so far. The program is not over, but no more B3's will be produced until more orders (for the new year) come in.

How many T-72B2? And what exactly is the difference to the B3?

franco wrote:
How many T-72B2? And what exactly is the difference to the B3?

The B2 (sadly) isn't in service, in fact, the B3 program replaced it. 

B2 had Relikt, the V-92S2 engine, and TVN-10 drivers sight to its' advantage.

B2 was proper upgrade but now they have half-assed the upgrade programm to B3 standard which they claim to get close to T-90 which it only gets in very few things but nothing to compare with T-90's. They dropped B2 due to cost.

The reason I ask is that one of the sources I have read has 90 B2's and 450 B3's at the end of 2014 plus whatever went out this year.

EDIT: Sorry went back and checked, it was 90 B1's. They seem to be equivalent to a BM??

They half assed it to cut costs and keep asany T-72's in service till Armata comes along.  Hopefully they kept enough money saved from it to purchase a bunch of armatas.  It was posted while back that authorities were not happy with T-72B3.  But they probably felt no need to keep trying to make it better shen inherint flaws still exist, to save and wait.  Dont agree with it though.  I think the tanks still have a lot of potential to them.

franco wrote:The reason I ask is that one of the sources I have read has 90 B2's and 450 B3's at the end of 2014 plus whatever went out this year.

EDIT: Sorry went back and checked, it was 90 B1's. They seem to be equivalent to a BM??

according to wiki:

T-72B (Ob'yekt 184) (NATO code: SMT M1988)[44] {1985}[41] (SMT – Soviet Medium Tank) – Much improved version with 1A40-1 fire control system, thicker armour, turret front and top was heavily reinforced with composite armour better known by its US codename "Super Dolly Parton", 20 mm of appliqué armour in the front of hull, 9K120 system which gives T-72B 9M119 "Svir" laser-guided antitank missile capability, new 2A46M main gun, 1K13-49 sight, stabilization system, and a new V-84-1 engine with 840 hp (626 kW). On early models the smoke dischargers were mounted on the turret front (as per T-72A), later they were grouped on the left side of the turret to prepare for the installation of ERA bricks.
T-72B1 (Ob'yekt 184-1) – T-72B without ATGM capability and with the T-72A's optics.
T-72BA (Ob'yekt 184A) – this version is an upgrade of existing T-72B tanks, refurbished at UVZ. First machines were supplied in 1999–2000, in 2009 not more than 210 of these were in service with Russian army. The version is distinguished from T-72B by "Kontakt-5" armour, tracks (same as in T-90) and a wind detector rod installed on a rear left part of turret.
T-72B2 "Rogatka" obr.2006g (Ob'yekt 184M) (also referred to as T-72BM in documents) – Upgrade of T-72B under "Rogatka" programme. First shown at the 2006 Russian Arms Expo, it is upgraded with new fire control system including a gunner's thermal sight, "Nakidka" camouflage kit, new 125 mm 2A46M-5 main gun with muzzle reference system, V-92S2 1,000 hp diesel engine and new "Relikt" 3rd generation explosive reactive armour which is claimed to be twice as effective as Kontakt-5.

Mike E wrote:

franco wrote:
How many T-72B2? And what exactly is the difference to the B3?

The B2 (sadly) isn't in service, in fact, the B3 program replaced it. 

B2 had Relikt, the V-92S2 engine, and TVN-10 drivers sight to its' advantage.

Let's be reasonable here, is the T-72B2 good enough to siphon funds away from the Armata program? Absolutely not.

Magnum is correct, Armata received priority and rightfully so. What's the point in the B2 if they'd only be in active service for a decade, anyway.

T-90M Proriv-3 is more "worthy" IMHO.

Only 32 T-72B3's for next year if I get this right;

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1695164.html

Good. Stop purchasing those tanks and get something else

Not really.

32 'upgraded' B3's gave been ordered and assigned to Omsk.

As with last year, we will see a few hundred total produced.

The contract for the modernization of the tank to the level of the T-72B3 in 2016.

http://alexeyvvo.livejournal.com/165863.html

Research and Production Corporation "Uralvagonzavod" named after FE Dzerzhinsky placed in the register of procurement information (link to purchase number 31603190542) to conclude an agreement with part of the integrated structure of the corporation of "Omsktransmash" for the overhaul of tanks T-72B to upgrade to the T-72B3. Repairs will be carried out in the interests of the Russian Defense Ministry. Uralvagonzavod yavlyayuetsya the main executor of the state contract for the modernization of T-72B.

Under the agreement, for repair until the end of 2015. must be received by 32 tanks, the completion of the modernization is planned before the end of 2016. The price of the repair, approved by the state defense order for 2015. Applied for 12 units., The price for the rest of 2016 is used. The contract is worth 2,525,984 345.88 rubles. (the average price of works on one tank - 78.9 mln.)



According to documents posted include the modernization of the tank
installation method:
sights "Sosna-U" and 1A40-4;
automatic tracking of targets;
radio-168-25U P-2 and a complex hardware-software ABCK;
gun-type 2A46M 5-01;
anti-aircraft machine gun 6P50 "Kord"
The engine-92S2F (1130 hp) with systems that ensure its work;
complex display of the driver and the rear-view television cameras;
caterpillar tracks with oblique lugs and drive wheels with improved cleanability;
body side skirts with integrated dynamic protection modules such as "Relic" and lattice screens projection MTO housing;
- Acquisition of a single tank spare parts kit:
additional modules dynamic protection "soft" body, increases the resistance of the body to the side of the projection anti-cumulative means, with the possibility of their equipment and the sample in conditions;
dynamic protection modules and lattice screens tower, increasing its resistance to anti-cumulative means and installed instead of boxes of spare parts of the tower, depending on the nature of the task;
- Finalization of AZ, which provides the use of products with C-1 and C-2;
- Completion of tanks in terms of ensuring stability of mine, in which event the above is not fulfilled.
- Modification of the tank, taking into account the modification of products and years of their release, not specified in the contract shall not be permitted except in cases of termination of production and inability to restore full-time components.