AK-12 Rifle Discussion

Two AK-12 videos:

Cool video, Russian practical shooting team testing AK-12



Nice to see some actual professionals fire this thing.

English version

Nice Videos... thanks for posting.

Note at 14 seconds the muzzle we see is actually an AK-107 with its distinctive gas tube that continues all the way to the front sight.

Yeah I noticed that. Pretty sure they were just comparing the two.

Yeah, I agree... they probably tested a range of weapons while they were there but they only tried to include the footage of the AK-12 for the report. This shot was clearly a slip-up by whomever edited the footage together.

Notice also the model shown in the video has the old AK-100 series solid stock design and near the end of the vid the guy doing the testing talks about a straight line adjustable stock that is being developed.

This suggests to me that they haven't quite got the stock right yet and are perhaps working on a stock that has adjustable length and cheek piece and perhaps a butt plate that can be adjusted for angle too.

With it being a folding stock the length adjustment wont need an enormous range because you would adjust the length for what you are wearing and then not adjust it till you change clothing/vests. When you want to make the weapon shorter and more compact then you fold the stock. If you are wearing a big heavy vest then you might need to shorten the stock to make it comfortable, but a big guy in a T shirt might want to extend it to max length for firing comfort.
Unless you change clothes or put on or take off a shooting vest then you wont need to adjust the stock length.

Would be interesting if they added a new butt that had a wider base for shooting grenades... such a stock adaptation would also be used for the larger heavier frame 7.62 x 51mm model of the rifle.

Just looking at these guys firing the weapon they have clearly reduced the weight of the internal components that slap around during firing which makes burst fire more accurate without the complexity of a balanced recoil mechanism.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/06/28/ak-12-prototype-testing/

Seems the folks at the firearm blog aren't to optimistic about the AK-12s future.

No, they are not, but it is not their decision.

In the case of the T-90MS the problem is that the cost doubled and there is a replacement vehicle being developed.

For the AK AFAIK there are no plans for new assault rifle calibres, so there is little need for a fundamentally new rifle design.

The Russian military have stated they will not buy AK-74s any more, but that AK-100s are still of interest to them.

Perhaps we can wait till after they have actually tested the AK-12 before we make a judgement as to what sort of numbers will be purchased and for whom.

Personally I think the weapon will be very popular amongst special forces of the military and paramilitary forces like MVD and FSB. I would think all the new production equipment at Izhmash will actually make these new rifles easier and cheaper to make and the flexibility of being able to use a range of sights and equipment will make the military eventually decide to buy them too.

I actually also think a modular rifle in semi auto only will be very popular on the civilian market with the improved comfort and flexibility of the rail mounts making it appealing along with the option of changing calibres and a choice of barrel lengths (from long for open country long range shots to short for use in the bush).

I would like a long range rabbit/goat gun in 5.45 x 39mm calibre and a close range pig gun in 7.62 x 39mm with a short barrel and suppressor fitted as standard. Even if it costs a little more to get the base rifle as long as the barrels and mags etc are not too expensive it should be cheaper to have a rifle with a couple of spare barrels than a couple of rifles.

They could make building calibre kits as a side business that should make them good money on its own.

GarryB wrote:I would like a long range rabbit/goat gun in 5.45 x 39mm calibre and a close range pig gun in 7.62 x 39mm with a short barrel and suppressor fitted as standard.

So in the place you stay in near by jungles you have lot of rabbit and goat and you go for shooting ?

I live in a country with a very moderate climate that before man arrived had mostly a population of birds.
Once the pig and the rabbit was introduced their populations exploded because the only natural predator for them is man.

Plus they taste nice...

Oh so you hunt for Pigs and Birds in the wild with your gun ?

Do you have pictures of your hunt or any blog where i can see your gun and kill ?

The only birds I shoot are magpies... they are noisy Australian birds that get very territorial.

I mainly shoot rabbits and possums and any stoat or ferret I come across. I do shoot pigs and goats too but only for food or to help out a farmer.

I don't normally take a camera with me when I hunt and I don't hunt for trophies.

If rabbits feet were so lucky how could a human that has none get one from a rabbit that had four?

For Rabbits and possums I have an old Remington 5 shot semi auto shotgun, or a Baikal twin barrel shotgun (side by side rather than over and under), and occasionally I use a Stirling semi auto .22 (made in the Philippines).

With an AK-12 the lighter model could work as a 5.45mm rifle for rabbits and possums and goats, while 7.62 x 39mm calibre could be used on goats and pigs and wallabies up north. The 7.62 x 39mm approximates the performance of the 3030 which was very widely used as a deer rifle at relatively close range, so with the right projectiles it would do the job if needed.

I would still like a nice 7.62 x 39mm bolt action rifle that took AK magazines.

Most 7 round AK mags I can get my hands on are almost $100 each... you would think a piece of folded sheet metal like that would be a licence to print money. Still I guess the demand is not there and if supply ever increased the prices would go down and it wouldn't be worth filling the market gap any more...

These have already been posted on MP.net but I guess I might as well put them here.









I guess they developed a new magazine for it to work better with the redesigned bolt catch.

Interesting that there seem to be two things there... a button on the part between the mag and the pistol grip area and another button further forward...



Just based on their position I suspect with the correct magazine that the button behind the magazine above the magazine catch might be to turn on or off the auto catch, or bolt hold open device labelled B on the picture, while the button labelled A on the picture above might be the standard mechanism release catch.

Just guesses of course...

Nice new video about AK-12. Truely impressive.

Ok. the video is on this page: http://expert.ru/2012/07/30/generalnyij-plan/

It is the recent interview with the Izhmash boss.

Note that the mag sizes for the AK-12 are : 20, 30, 60 and 95

I think the work on a compromise cartridge between the 5.45 and 7.62 suggests a reason for the lack of the 7.62 x 54mm calibre AK12.

Usually trying to find a compromise between to calibres leads to the logical progression of the replacement of those two calibres with the compromise calibre...

Of course the compromise calibre will be an attempt to combine the light weight low recoil 5.45 with the range and hitting power of the full calibre 7.62 x 54mm round which should result in a longer reaching round that is slightly heavier than 5.45 but not as heavy as 7.62. More recoil than 5.45 but less than 7.62. More range than 5.45 perhaps even better than 7.62 by better bullet propellent and design.

The result might just replace the 7.62 x 54mm in MGs and sniper rifles because of its more modern design making it magazine friendly with simplified handling inside the weapon making guns smaller and lighter, or it might become a standard round to replace both 5.45 and 7.62.

Of course the introduction of the 338LM round as a sniper round raises the question... currently there are 5.45mm rifles and 7.62 x 54mm rifles and the next calibre up is 12.7mm calibre. Replacing the 5.45mm and 7.62mm rifles with a single say 6mm calibre do you want the GPMG to go from 7.62mm to 6mm, or do you want to go for a GPMG in 338LM for extra range and hitting power and use the 6mm in LMGs like the PKP Pecheneg recalibrated to 6mm...

Edit: BTW Thanks for that still from the Vid TheArmenian... it clearly has a rear mounted peep sight that can be removed from the rail if needed.

What I gathered from the interview is the AK-12 uses a system inspired by, but not identical to the BARS system used on the AK-107. The designer said he saw no difference between the recoil of the AK-107 and AK-12. How they increased the accuracy on the AK-12 is a lighter bolt group that isn't as violent as the original. The 20 round magazine in the picture is apparently made because of a request by special forces.

The AK-12 is a really exciting development and I can't wait to get my hands on one. I would have to agree with the Ministry of Defense on their position of not buying the AK-12. I don't think there is anything seriously wrong with the AK-74M to warrant the cost. When their existing rifles start to get worn out, is probably the time to start buying AK-12's. The Russian military said the only change they required for the AK-74M was adding picatinny rails. You're more likely to see a modernized AK-74M than the AK-12 being adopted by regular forces.

If this was the early 2000s I would tend to agree with you regarding purchases, but with the current demands for Russian weapons (as opposed to ex Soviet weapons), and also the drive for upgrades first and then generational improved models designed from scratch then I think there is more question as to what might happen.

I think the special forces will lap this weapon up, and if they perfect a multicalibre system where you can swap barrels to go from SMG, carbine, rifle, and LMG/DMR with different barrel lengths in the same calibre then I also think they will likely get contracts from India and quite a few other countries as well.

I even think eastern european countries that make their own rifles might consider licence production contracts in NATO calibres, or they might just develop their own knockoffs.

The key I think is cost.

It is mentioned that the AK12 is more expensive... and with all the extra bits that is understandible.

The real question is... are the changes justified and is the extra cost worth it.

Are they cosmetic changes that have little practical value or are they fundamental improvements that make it a more effective combat weapon and a tool that is easy and natural to use that can be mass produced and still be simple to operate and maintain.

On the face of it, and given the comments made in this and other interviews I suspect the latter.

The second group of questions however we can't answer, and that is that the new "from scratch" new generation weapon family they are designing: How expensive will it be. Will its performance justify the cost. Will it require all new ammo.

The US has gone through several competitions to replace the M16 over the years and the resulting winner of those competitions has never had a superiority that is significant enough to justify its introduction into service to replace the M16.

West Germany probably came closest with its G11 rifle. West Germany had not adopted the 5.56mm calibre so to replace its G3 rifle they had a competition, which was won by the G11 with 4.35mm calibre caseless rounds. The end of the cold war and reunification of west and east germany however stopped the process... the cost of reunification, plus the added aspect of the end of the cold war resulting in much less money available for military spending killed the G11, so they simply built a new rifle around the readily available 5.56mm round which was the cheapest option at the time.

The point is that a change in ammo is not cheap... even more so when the calibre is new.

Of course another aspect is... if they are investing an enormous amount of money on the new generation weapon family then there will be less money left and less incentive to spend any extra money on replacing existing rifles if they are going to be replaced again shortly with the new generation weapons.

Two examples of this would be the PAK FA/Su-35 and Mig-35/Su-30 and Mig-29SMT/M2, and armata/T-90AM and T-72 upgrade. In both cases there is a new generation system being developed and built (PAK FA and armata) and there are serious upgrades of existing systems that are given new designations like the Su-35/Mig-35 and T-90AM respectively, and also old models upgraded to give the best features without spending too much money so there is more money for the final new generation system, which would be Su-30s and Mig-29SMT/M2 and T-72 upgraded.

For the small arms that would be next gen small arms family and AK12 and AK-74M with rails.

The problems are not actually that different though in the case of aircraft there is a more urgent need for new aircraft which will likely lead to Su-35s, Su-30s, Mig-29M2s and/or Mig-35 all entering service, while in the tanks I rather suspect that it depends on the armata tanks cost... if the armata vehicle is expensive... say 8-10 million for the tank version, then I suspect they might produce T-90AMs and armatas together to minimise costs. Until that cost is known (which will likely be when it enters full production and service) they will likely save some money by just upgrading the T-72s for now. Adding the datalinking communications systems and new night vision optics means they can practise their new net centric C4IR stuff and practice at night and use up some old ammo stocks, and when armata is ready they can jump into those and T-90AMs to step up protection.

I rather suspect that when armata tanks are ready that many of the systems developed for it could be transferred to the T-90AM for commonality and logistics and support simplicity. Remember the systems developed for new "tanks" will be applied to all the vehicle families so the tank electronics and sensors and systems in the Kurganets-25 and Boomerang-25 and -10 should be the same as the tank electronics and sensors and systems in the armata tank vehicle. The Boomerang-10 might have a smaller lighter gun, but everything else will be standardised.

With the AK, I rather expect having helped in its development this is exactly what the Russian special forces want and it will be sold to them rapidly in large numbers as soon as they can get hold of it.

For elite units like VDV and Russian Naval Infantry they are already getting new weapons (ADS and new sniper rifles and other bits and pieces) so I expect they will certainly look at the AK12 to see if they can use it too.

For the rest of the military I rather suspect it will be a combination of looking at their stores and chucking out the junk, selling off anything that might be worth selling, checking that rear and back water areas have been attended to... ie any unit still issued AKMs that want AK-74s, and then have a look through the government departments for the same. Bird and wildlife officers for instance might hand in their AKMSs and get AKS-74Us. There might be a lot of rifles that could simply have pic rails attached and that is all that is needed.

Once all that is done they might find a purchase of a few hundred thousand AK12s might be in order.

I rather suspect the civilian version they are talking about would be very popular in the western market and that with Russias entry to the WTO a few laws that blocked sales of Russian rifles in certain countries suddenly become illegal... the WTO is all about free and fair trade, so banning particular rifles from a particular country for reasons other than they are faulty or dangerous to the user is illegal.

I think the thing is that a lot of the changes on the AK-12 could also be done for the AK-74M. They've already made a model of the AK-74M with pictiany rails, a more ergonomic safety could be applied to the AK-74M, adjustable buttstock, etc. A complaint of the AK is that they aren't as easy to reload as western rifle designs. If they issued quad stack 60 round magazines, I don't really think that would matter too much.

Certainly existing AK stocks could be upgraded... some are fairly cosmetic like removing the old stock and fitting a new fully adjustable stock would be fairly straight forward.

Fitting rails would also be fairly simple and would make attaching scopes quicker and easier, though many newer AKs have a latch based attachment system that is fairly fool proof is relatively quick too.

The Safety would be fairly easy to duplicate on the left hand side too.

The main problems I see with the standard AK design are that you have to reach over the rifle to get to the cocking handle if you shoot right handed, which is made even harder if a scope is fitted, and the mass of the bolt carrier means that during automatic firing the rifle moves around a lot which reduces accuracy.

You could lighten the bolt carrier but that will affect reliability in harsh conditions, and you could switch over the cocking handle... but to be honest if you are going to be doing all this... new buttstock, new receiver top cover with rails, new front stocks with rails, new bolt carrier, new cocking handle, new ambidextrous safety... it suddenly looks like perhaps buying new AK12s for those that need it makes rather more sense.

For many soldiers adding rails and putting a new rear iron sight that is attached to the rail is probably enough for now.

When they start introducing the super soldier systems it is going to be the electronics and night vision equipment that will be expensive... new AK12 rifles to go with it will be peanuts in terms of extra cost... and well worth the investment too.

The improved accuracy alone would be useful in my opinion... if not for the military, then for the civilian buyers... which is bound to include me if I can help it... Having a light rifle able to use 5.45mm and also 7.62 x 39mm would be useful as both ammo types are cheap here. Having a 223 cal kit would be a low risk investment in that case and make the whole set up more flexible and ammo price resistent.

If they can make the Rifle itself perhaps in the $1,200 range or slightly more than the $750-$1000 range of Saiga shotguns, and then perhaps $300-500 for each calibre kit with perhaps two kits sold in the initial purchase then I would be a very happy camper. (note NZ dollars).

GarryB wrote:Certainly existing AK stocks could be upgraded... some are fairly cosmetic like removing the old stock and fitting a new fully adjustable stock would be fairly straight forward.

Fitting rails would also be fairly simple and would make attaching scopes quicker and easier, though many newer AKs have a latch based attachment system that is fairly fool proof is relatively quick too.

The Safety would be fairly easy to duplicate on the left hand side too.

The main problems I see with the standard AK design are that you have to reach over the rifle to get to the cocking handle if you shoot right handed, which is made even harder if a scope is fitted, and the mass of the bolt carrier means that during automatic firing the rifle moves around a lot which reduces accuracy.

You could lighten the bolt carrier but that will affect reliability in harsh conditions, and you could switch over the cocking handle... but to be honest if you are going to be doing all this... new buttstock, new receiver top cover with rails, new front stocks with rails, new bolt carrier, new cocking handle, new ambidextrous safety... it suddenly looks like perhaps buying new AK12s for those that need it makes rather more sense.

For many soldiers adding rails and putting a new rear iron sight that is attached to the rail is probably enough for now.

When they start introducing the super soldier systems it is going to be the electronics and night vision equipment that will be expensive... new AK12 rifles to go with it will be peanuts in terms of extra cost... and well worth the investment too.

The improved accuracy alone would be useful in my opinion... if not for the military, then for the civilian buyers... which is bound to include me if I can help it... Having a light rifle able to use 5.45mm and also 7.62 x 39mm would be useful as both ammo types are cheap here. Having a 223 cal kit would be a low risk investment in that case and make the whole set up more flexible and ammo price resistent.

If they can make the Rifle itself perhaps in the $1,200 range or slightly more than the $750-$1000 range of Saiga shotguns, and then perhaps $300-500 for each calibre kit with perhaps two kits sold in the initial purchase then I would be a very happy camper. (note NZ dollars).

The charging handle is a bit of an inconvenience, but say a soldier with AK-74M with a quad stack magazine is going up against soldiers armed with M4's or AKM's, they most likely will have 30 round magazine. The fact that reloads are slower/less efficent with the AK-74M won't matter as much as the soldier will be doing them less often than their enemy. Low accuracy of fire on fully automatic has always been a problem that the Russians have reported with the AK. You can't really address that issue without changing the whole design, like you mentioned. In the Soviet manual of the AK-74, they mention that fully automatic fire was the prefered method of fire, is that still true today with the Russian federation troops? Zloblin, the designer, made it sound like the quad stacks will never be perfected. If they can't get 60 round magazines working, they should at least try to make a 40 or 45 round quad stack.

I gather from what I have read that the concept of the 60 round mags was developed from the fact that soldiers tended to tape two 30 round mags together in combat to speed up the reloading process.

With a 60 round mag you don't need to swap the mags over, and the weight can be slightly reduced as one 60 round mag would be slightly lighter than two 30 round mags taped together.

Having a charging handle that can be changed by the user to suit them is the best solution all round. It doesn't need to instantly flip from one side to the other, but being to change it in a minute is rather better than not being able to change it at all.

The way they have redesigned the cocking handle on the AK12 means there is no slit down the side of the receiver, which would allow dirt and dust to enter the mechanism on the older rifles. By moving it forward to just below the place where the old iron sights used to be makes it easier to reach and operate and being able to swap it from one side to the other makes it even more convenient.

Not fully ambidextrous, but able to accommodate both left and right handed users.

The reloads are not slower as such however, they are just more awkward for right handed users.

Low accuracy of fire on fully automatic has always been a problem that the Russians have reported with the AK. You can't really address that issue without changing the whole design, like you mentioned.

And the irony is that when it came time to replace the AKM in the 70s and the AK-74 in the 90s there were balanced recoil rifles put up in competition that dealt with the accuracy problems in full auto. Of course the new AK-74 muzzle brake and 5.45mm ammo made accuracy much less of an issue, but in my opinion the balanced recoil competition would have offered even better performance than the AK-74 and AN-94 that won each competition respectively.

In the Soviet manual of the AK-74, they mention that fully automatic fire was the prefered method of fire, is that still true today with the Russian federation troops?

The AN-94 won AFAIK because of its improved accuracy, so clearly they have changed their requirements, which previously included production and ease of use, which clearly could not have been major factors with the AN-94.

The lack of widespread use of the AN-94 however might have been an example to them that producability, and ease of use are important factors as well as accuracy and effective range.

I would expect single shot or double tap shooting might become standard, or in the case of the AK12 perhaps limiting the shooting to single shot for extended range shooting at point targets, three round burst for fast moving targets at medium and shorter range and full auto for medium and short range targets, or to get the enemy to get their heads down.

Zloblin, the designer, made it sound like the quad stacks will never be perfected. If they can't get 60 round magazines working, they should at least try to make a 40 or 45 round quad stack.

They already have 45 round 5.45mm mags, and the flat 95 round drums actually look more interesting, though drums are expensive and occasionally rattle.

If anyone can sort out a quad stack reliable mag then it would be them...

Of course the ultimate solution is a linkless belt feed fed from a backpack containing a thousand rounds of caseless ammo...

If the AK-12 has an ambidextrous bolt catch, then there is less need to have a charging handle that can be switched out. I'm not really a fan of the charging handle being able to be switched out. I don't think it would be as stable as a fixed charging handle that is machined as part of the bolt. And what if an incompetent soldier messes around with it and looses his charging handle? From what I've read, the reason why they didn't adopt the bars style recoil system was because it would been too expensive to switch over and change assembly lines. I don't think function was an issue. If the AK-12 is as good as its suppose to be, then I imagine it will make the AN-94 and AK-107 obsolete. The problem with 45 rounders is that they are quite a bit longer than the regular 30 round magazines. I imagine the length of a 45 rounder would have been a burden for the average soldier, they were only intended for the RPK-74. Some people already complain about the length of the 30 rounder during prone.

If the AK-12 has an ambidextrous bolt catch, then there is less need to have a charging handle that can be switched out.

To be honest a better position cocking handle is more useful than an ambidextrous safety/selector.

Generally you keep the weapon safe by keeping your finger off the trigger till you are ready to fire, but every time you change mags you need to cock the weapon.

I'm not really a fan of the charging handle being able to be switched out. I don't think it would be as stable as a fixed charging handle that is machined as part of the bolt.

When firing my AK left handed I find there is no problem with the safety/selector or the cocking handle as I can reach both easily with my free right hand.

When firing my SLR left handed however I find it rather awkward because the cocking handle is on the left hand side, as is the safety/selector switch and the manual bolt hold open/bolt release button.

I have not seen a fully stripped down AK12 but it looks to me like there is a slot on both sides of the weapon for the cocking handle and I suspect that removing the bolt carrier would allow the cocking handle to either be taken off and reattached 180 degrees so it can stick out the left or right side of the weapon.

It should attach at the middle of the piston rod attached to the bolt carrier and it is possible that it might simply be permanently attached and when the bolt carrier is out of the weapon it can be rotated 180 degrees to allow left or right handed use.

The cocking handle of the SLR (FN FAL) is not fixed to the bolt carrier and when pulled back and released to cock the mechanism will actually fold forward and lock on my model of the rifle so it doesn't slap back and forth during firing.

And what if an incompetent soldier messes around with it and looses his charging handle?

Probably the same thing that happens to the incompetent soldier that loses his bolt... he tries to pinch someone elses. I would suspect that the cocking handle could be pinned to the piston rod in such a way that it can rotate to either side but can't be removed when the rifle is stripped.

If the AK-12 is as good as its suppose to be, then I imagine it will make the AN-94 and AK-107 obsolete.

Agreed, though it would be interesting to see an AK-107 based AK12 rifle tested too.

The problem with 45 rounders is that they are quite a bit longer than the regular 30 round magazines. I imagine the length of a 45 rounder would have been a burden for the average soldier, they were only intended for the RPK-74. Some people already complain about the length of the 30 rounder during prone.

Quite true... the 45 round mags tend to monopod in prone fire.

I have noticed some talk of a 20 round mag for special forces use, and in a quad stack design a shorter 40 round mag might be interesting... not as long as a 30 round mag or 60 round quad mag or as heavy, but still carrying more ammo than the standard 30 round mag.

I have a couple of 7 round mags for my chinese AK and I must say they look good and are sufficient for hunting, but they are a pain to use because normally you grip the mag in one hand and use that gripping hands thumb to operate the mag release lever. With the really short mags however there is no mag to grip, so you hold the rifle near the mag well and use that thumb to operate the mag release and with the other hand pull the mag clear... real pain in the @$$.

Of course if the things I was shooting ever shot back I could appreciate wanting to get down as low as I could...

EDIT: Actually just looking at the AK12 on the previous page it wouldn't be that hard to just have a fixed cocking handle sticking out both sides of the weapon if that was important so you could cock it from both sides without any adjustment needed, and no loose small parts you could lose or damage.