Guys ,you need to calm down ,it's not a fight at all
When we come to Northern altitude , GPS is low strength ,so GLONASS becomes the better option for the northern countries in the world near to the arctic
I think using dual receiver capability GPS/GLONASS will be more useful than depending on one of them , the more satellites that are visible to the receiver and the less noise around the receiver such as trees, buildings etc. the more precisely the location is calculated, a position which is based on information from 48+ satellites! wow it's 100% accurate coverage .
And TR-1... the article says to me that GLONASS works better inside buildings than GPS... and a lot of emergency calls come from inside buildings, so it makes sense to include Glonass signals for location.
The title of this thread is inaccurate... the public GLONASS and GPS signals are one thing, but military grade signals from both is something else...
And who cares which is more accurate... each is accurate enough ad for the Russians the most important thing about GLONASS is that when a war is declared the US military can't turn GLONASS off like they did in the conflict in South Ossetia when Georgia invaded SO territory the US turned off the civilian GPS in the region and left the military signal on so the Georgians could continue to use it to navigate, while the Russian military using civilian GPS devices got no signal.
Reason why RUssia should build a high altitude mesosphere stealth bombers.. and spread paint in american satellites from distance to cover their solar panels.. so they go out of energy in weeks ,while making difficult at the same time to detect Russia hands in the attack.. Later they will depend on Glonass , So Russia can shut down to them in any conflict..and payback the favor.. it will be worth of every ruble to invest in developing technology to shut down americans use of satellites in space by stealth ..
Congress alarmed by plans to use Russian system to route 911 calls Published time: January 22, 2015 15:50
Tags Health, Information Technology, Intelligence, Saudi Arabia, SciTech, USA
Plans to route 911 location calls via Russia’s GLONASS satellite system have sparked national security concerns among some members of Congress, despite assurances that its use will be limited and it will help save lives in emergencies.
Chairman of the Armed Services subcommittee, Rep. Mike Rogers, has sent an angry letter to the Secretary of Defense and Director of National Intelligence (DNI) after learning about the intentions of the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC).
“In view of the threat posed to the world by Russia’s Vladimir Putin, it cannot be seriously considered that the US would rely on a system in that dictator’s control for its wireless 911 location capability,” the document obtained by the Washington Times said.
According to the Alabama Republican, America’s “response to Russia’s hybrid warfare, arms control cheating, illegal invasions of sovereign nations, and energy-based extortion must be broad-based isolation and counter-leverage.”
Rogers asked the Department of Defense and DNI to detail the extent of GLONASS use and the effect on national security if Russia provides the satellite communications.
The plan to use the Russian system was develop by a group of US top mobile operators together with Association of Public Safety Communications Officials and the National Emergency Number Association.
It is aimed at improving the ability of the police and emergencies services to locate people calling for help from their mobile phones.
GLONASS was chosen because similar US systems don’t cover the required territory, Trey Forgety, National Emergency Number Association’s director of government affairs, said.
Besides that, GLONASS is a lot better than GPS in locating mobile phones when the call is made from inside the building.
“Our view is that we ought to be leveraging anything that is available to find someone in an emergency,” he explained.
In a letter to FCC, Sprint - one of the companies involved in the project - stressed that GLONASS will not be used exclusively, adding that the plan “advocates taking advantage of a tool that is available now to allow carriers to improve location information.”
The Association of Public-Safety Communications Officials has described Rogers’ national security concerns as groundless.
They are fueled by “plainly false statements that stretch the imagination to try to make a case that the roadmap’s inclusion of GLONASS for location determination presents a security threat,” Jeffrey Cohen, the association’s government relations director, stressed in a letter to the FCC.
Pentagon spokesman, Army Colonel Steve Warren, gave an assurance that Rogers’s letter will be addressed by the Department of Defense.
The decision to use the Russian system has not been finalized, Rear Admiral David Simpson, chief of the FCC’s Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau, said, adding that the organization is only reviewing 911 location options.
“We are committed to protecting both public safety and national security as we continue to examine the input and issues in the proceeding, and will coordinate with our colleagues across the government to ensure that national security needs are addressed,” Simpson said, as cited by the Washington Times.
The FCC will decide whether to stick with GLONASS during its public meeting, scheduled for January 29.
It’s not the first time the FCC have attempted to expand communications at the expense of national security, catching the Pentagon off guard.
In 2013, the State Department considered allowing Russia’s space agency Roscosmos to build six facilities, equipped with antennas, across the US.
The move was prevented by Congress, which banned the Pentagon from signing contracts for commercial satellite services with foreign companies.
Moscow has been developing GLONASS since 1976 on instructions from the Defense Ministry, with full global coverage enabled in 1995.
The system currently comprises 28 satellites, including 24 operational spacecraft, three spares, and one platform in flight-testing phase.
There are 19 ground stations providing consumers with a navigation signal with an accuracy of one meter.
Three stations are also located in the Antarctic and one in Brazil, with two more to be constructed in Kazakhstan and one in Belarus.
Well the answer seems to be both.. GLONASS covers northern latitudes more accurately - and the GLONASS system is more accurate inside buildings in general. TR1 is right that the claim in unsourced - but I don't see why RT would just invent this specific information out of the blue; it has to be based on at least something, even if just a rumor.
“In view of the threat posed to the world by Russia’s Vladimir Putin, it cannot be seriously considered that the US would rely on a system in that dictator’s control for its wireless 911 location capability,”
As for this - this is some North Korea-level war-like rhetoric, right here. If such people are running the US government, Russia has to take all measures to counter and contain the US threat.
flamming_python wrote: Well the answer seems to be both.. GLONASS covers northern latitudes more accurately - and the GLONASS system is more accurate inside buildings in general.
RT pulled the building claim straight out of its ass. Go ahead and find a serious article by serious scientists that makes that claim. It doesn't even make sense since they work on essentially the same principles.
911 Association Says Lobbyist Behind Anti-Russia Tactic to Derail GLONASS
Director of government affairs for the National Emergency Number Association claims that US lobbyist is behind a campaign to derail a proposal to use Russian satellites to help first responders more accurately locate 911 calls from cell phones.
WASHINGTON, January 24 (Sputnik) — US lobbyist is behind a campaign to derail a proposal being considered by the US government’s main communications agency to use Russian satellites to help first responders more accurately locate 911 calls from cell phones, the director of government affairs for the National Emergency Number Association Trey Forgety told Sputnik.
“This retired admiral has gone to the Department of Defense and told them they need to push back against the evil Russian system when really it comes down to corporate greed,” Forgety said, whose association represents nearly 6,000 emergency 911 call centers.
Under the US Federal Communications Commission’s (FCC) proposal, Russia’s GLONASS satellite system would be added to the US satellite GPS system to double the coverage of satellites, thereby increasing the probability and accuracy of finding someone making a 911 call.
According to Forgety, True Position, a company that uses antiquated technology to locate 911 callers, created the Find Me 911 Coalition. The coalition is headed by Retired Rear Admiral Jamie Barnett, who is also an attorney. The Find Me 911 Coalition website describes its mission as seeking to ensure that the FCC establish a “reasonable, measurable level of location accuracy for emergency calls made indoors, enabling first responders to locate emergency calls from wireless phones from all locations rapidly and efficiently.”
The coalition’s website also confirms True Position provided initial funding for the operation.
The coalition and Barnett did not respond to Sputnik email requests to comment.
“If you look at where the sudden outpouring of concern it all ties back to one company that has a legacy location technology that they want to salvage to keep the company alive. True Position is doing everything they can to prevent these other improvements in location accuracy from coming into American policy, including leveraging their attorney’s [Barnett] contacts at the Department of Defense,” Forgety explained.
Those opposed to the FCC proposal argue Russia will gain control over 911 call handling and know where first responders and citizens are located. But Forgety said those concerns are “not technically possible.”
The GLONASS project, which was launched in 1993, is considered to be Russia's answer to GPS (Global Positioning System). The GLONASS network currently consists of 29 satellites, including 24 operational, allowing real-time positioning and speed data for surface, sea and airborne objects around the globe.
No, RT says so. So what? You guys cry all the time that CNN and Fox and whatever makes stuff up, but because some random RT journo who doesn't know a GLONASS satellite from a GPS one if it flew up his ass is suddenly an expert and a serious source in the field?
There is absolutely zero basis for the claim. And of course, this thread was BS from the start.
I think such a claim is logical... or are you suggesting that they want to add Glonass to the system to make it less accurate?
The claim that GLONASS is more accurate from inside buildings is logical? Are you serious right now?
They are adding it because in certain latitudes it works better. That is it. Not because of RT's hilarious and baseless claim that somehow GLONASS has magical abilities inside buildings.
Glonass operates on completely different orbits, which means when visible they are able to send their signals at steeper angles so less of the sky needs to be visible in places where there are a lot of high rise buildings or trees.
A signal will always be more accurate than no signal at all.
In order for a phone to calculate a good position, a clear line of access to four or more satellites is needed , if the signals have bounced off a wall before reaching the receiver, it will reduce the accuracy of the position , it doesn't matter if this satellite serve GPS or GLONASS , the wall will bite the signal anyway , we use higher frequency because it travel more distance .
Field tests in downtown San Francisco found that the positioning accuracy of adding GLONASS improved as much as 50% , which means both of them have the same accuracy
That is like half of the story.. You need to take into account GPS is much older than GLonass and it travels a much higher orbit , means have less resolution than Glonass too.. and more time delay between communications too because is farther.. albeit is only seconds ,this can make a huge difference in things that are in motion.. very important for military use for precision of missiles..
THe precision of satelites aside of altitude and positions.. the numbers also is important. the more satellites you have the bigger the precision.. I was reading since years ago.. that RUssia will have Satellite navigation precision of just half a meter by 2015 to 2018.. with their glonnass system and about few inches by 2020.. So for me it was clear Glonass is superior.. Russian articles about Glonnass were claiming it.. This report is not surprising to me.. of people claiming Glonass is better.. is not the first time i read that from experts in the topic.. Now the difference is that americans engineers are also saying Glonnass have an advantage over GPS.. "why the reason it was chosen..." using their own words..
Field tests in downtown San Francisco found that the positioning accuracy of adding GLONASS improved as much as 50% , which means both of them have the same accuracy
No, if you only use one system then it will always be less accurate than using two, because the inaccuracies in each will be random, while the accuracies will not.
The claim that GLONASS is more accurate from inside buildings is logical? Are you serious right now?
The use of two separate systems at one time makes the system more accurate than either one on its own. the European and Chinese systems are rather less accurate and offer less coverage than GLONASS.
A GLONASS + NAVSTAR System is more accurate than a NAVSTAR only system... therefore one could conclude that GLONASS makes the system more accurate and able to offer better coverage.
No, if you only use one system then it will always be less accurate than using two, because the inaccuracies in each will be random, while the accuracies will not.
So , how we know GLONASS is better indoor ?
The higher inclation angle for GLONASS(64,8 doesn't make it better inside buildings ,it makes GLONASS better at higher altitudes (like Canada), because DOP values will be repeated every sidereal from different satellites (GPS satellite passes over the same spot once every sidereal day ).
GLONASS receivers carry the burden of being able to decode both CDMA and FDMA signals, which makes them bigger and more expensive. GPS use CDMA only .
GPS through BOC modulation, is able to transmit more symbols per second than GLONASS.
The higher inclation angle for GLONASS(64,8 doesn't make it better inside buildings ,it makes GLONASS better at higher altitudes (like Canada), because DOP values will be repeated every sidereal from different satellites (GPS satellite passes over the same spot once every sidereal day ).
It is just as relevant for signals in big cities with tall buildings...
In Afghanistan... which isn't that far north... Navstar often failed because not enough satellites were visible to the sensor.
Also when navigating if you have two points to check your position from you can be reasonably accurate in locating yourself... if you have two different navigation systems with a dozen satellites between them then of course your precision is improved further.
they are not trying to add GLONASS to be politically correct... they could ignore GLONASS and add the EURO GPS Gallieo, but clearly there is a reason for that.
The higher inclation angle for GLONASS(64,8 doesn't make it better inside buildings ,it makes GLONASS better at higher altitudes (like Canada), because DOP values will be repeated every sidereal from different satellites (GPS satellite passes over the same spot once every sidereal day ).
It is just as relevant for signals in big cities with tall buildings...
In Afghanistan... which isn't that far north... Navstar often failed because not enough satellites were visible to the sensor.
Also when navigating if you have two points to check your position from you can be reasonably accurate in locating yourself... if you have two different navigation systems with a dozen satellites between them then of course your precision is improved further.
they are not trying to add GLONASS to be politically correct... they could ignore GLONASS and add the EURO GPS Gallieo, but clearly there is a reason for that.
I read before that US jammed the GPS signal over Afghanistan to prevent taliban from using consumer receivers in operations against US forces, after that they found that breathtaking peaks and backbreaking valleys make it hard to use GPS effectively,but it was good in IRAQ.
They didn't decided the final decision yet, but i think 911 will not rely on GLONASS only,even if it's better than GPS.
GPS through BOC modulation, is able to transmit more symbols per second than GLONASS.
But if the distance GPS travel is longer.. if they are lets say at twice the altitude of GLonass.. then their resolution will be lower and the transmission will have a delay in few seconds that can dramatically change the accuracy of their readings ,specially with things that move.. And this is the reason. (i have read somewhere ,forgot where).. Than american antiship cruise missiles are limited to subsonic speed.. because they cannot actualize fast enough the missile positioning with the terrain data. Like Glonass can.. So if this is correct.. it will be another reason why is better GLonass than GPS for military use. But for civilians use. which is the topic in question. what is a fact is that Gps have lower resolution than Glonass. This was told by RT when Russia released the world highest most detailed resolution images ever of earth. More detailed than any US image ever released.
IF All things were equal in the technology side ,For being closer to earth alone..,that feature alone should give Glonass and better view of anything in earth and a much stronger signal too... is a simple as that.. the closer you are to something the better view and the better the signal you have of it. Because Russia and US do have similar technology capabilities today , any feature that GPS could have.. Glonass will have it.. ifnot even better for the simple fact that Glonass satellites are more modern. GPS have many decades ruling the skies and Russian Glonass network have just few years.
Russian government officials were saying glonass was better.. and now you have a part of the american government saying it is better in X or Y things. IF Glonass can transmit/receive signals better inside buildings ,it have to be because is at a much lower Orbit than GPS.. this is the way i see it..The More closer the satellites the more stronger its signal. the angle is positioned also is important too . But so far americans authorities of safety in transportation and homeland security.. see Glonas as better. So it all match for me.
Probably US wanted a higher orbit for GPS for security reasons.. the higher the altitude of anything in space.. the more robust and more advanced have to be a rocket to shut it down.. So probably was done to minimize the list of countries that could threaten US satellites.
I read before that US jammed the GPS signal over Afghanistan to prevent taliban from using consumer receivers in operations against US forces, after that they found that breathtaking peaks and backbreaking valleys make it hard to use GPS effectively,but it was good in IRAQ.
No offense, but if you read it was jammed by the US then the article was written by an idiot.
It is a US system... they have total control of it.
They simply could have done what they did in Georgia during the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia in 8 8 8, and just turned off the civilian signal so Russian and South Ossetian forces using civilian receivers would get no signal while the Georgian forces using US gear with the military receivers could continue to use them normally to navigate.
The steep terrain made using navstar difficult in Afghanistan for the same reason at high latitudes GLONASS is better than NAVSTAR... because of the difference in orbits the GLONASS system works better with less of the sky visible and near the poles.
And near tall buildings or in a forest...
They didn't decided the final decision yet, but i think 911 will not rely on GLONASS only,even if it's better than GPS.
Of course they wont include GLONASS in the system... because they are aholes. They would rather US emergency services take longer to find people in trouble than use the Russian system because of pride. Dead Americans because of proud Americans... but the American people wont complain and demand the government do what is best for the American people... just like they don't want health care for everyone in America because that is just saving poor people and poor people are evil or lazy or stupid. (they think)
But if the distance GPS travel is longer.. if they are lets say at twice the altitude of GLonass.. then their resolution will be lower and the transmission will have a delay in few seconds that can dramatically change the accuracy of their readings ,specially with things that move.. And this is the reason. (i have read somewhere ,forgot where)..
No, not twice at all Altitude of GPS satellites is 20,200 km . GONASS 19,100 km. (1000 km is nothing for the speed of light )
Than american antiship cruise missiles are limited to subsonic speed.. because they cannot actualize fast enough the missile positioning with the terrain data. Like Glonass can
Cruise missiles, being aerodynamic vehicles, do not need the rapid response cycle time that ballistic missiles must have to keep the vehicle under control and on an appropriate track.
Russia has produced new cruise missiles with new speeds , US still depend on old versions , but they announced to produce modern ones.
This was told by RT when Russia released the world highest most detailed resolution images ever of earth. More detailed than any US image ever released.
And NASA creates the most detailed night image of Earth ever seen , The new sensor, the day-night band of the Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite (VIIRS), is sensitive enough to detect the nocturnal glow produced by Earth’s atmosphere and the light from a single ship in the sea,” NASA said .
No offense, but if you read it was jammed by the US then the article was written by an idiot.
They said they want to jam specific area not all GPS over Afghanistan
ahmedfire wrote: And NASA creates the most detailed night image of Earth ever seen , The new sensor, the day-night band of the Visible Infrared Imaging Radiometer Suite (VIIRS), is sensitive enough to detect the nocturnal glow produced by Earth’s atmosphere and the light from a single ship in the sea,” NASA said .
NASA said.. but the US gov is not Russia . Whenever Russia claim something on the technology side usually is not Bullshit.
look by yourself.. even thought this is not related to navigation satellites ,it just show you that Russia have the technology to surpass NASA.
There's been a long history of NASA-provided "Blue Marble" images of Earth, but now we're getting a different perspective thanks to photos taken by the Elektro-L No.1 Russian weather satellite. Unlike NASA's pictures, this satellite produces 121-megapixel images that capture the Earth in one shot instead of a collection of pictures from multiple flybys stitched together. The result is the highest-resolution single picture of Earth yet. The image certainly looks different than what we're used to seeing, and that's because the sensor aboard the weather satellite combines data from three visible and one infrared wavelengths of light, a method that turns vegetation into the rust color that dominates the shot.
An educator named James Drake obtained over 350 full-resolution photos from the NTs OMZ (Russian Research Center for Earth Operative Monitoring), and used them to make several videos showcasing a day in the life of Earth. The satellite takes a full image of Earth from its stationary point over 35,000 kilometers above the Indian Ocean every 30 minutes, providing the material for the video below. The images have a resolution of one kilometer per pixel, and the one you see above was taken on May 14, 2011. Be sure to check a zoomable version of the image here to see the detail for yourself and be reminded of just how tiny we really are.
and here is Russia best earth photo.. see the earth on full screen ,click the controls on the right on the website. and be amazed how detailed are the Russian images of earth.
http://gigapan.com/gigapans/103187
WHich ones is more detailed is obvious to the naked eye.. The Russia images of earth from space are night and day difference and eclipse anything released by NASA . And this should be a major embarrassment for USA who are always pretending to be the most advanced nation on planet and that Russia produce nothing but gas.
here is a compressed video in motion..reduce to 1megapixel.. (not the original 121 megapixel quality of the original images but you get an idea of the details and also see it in motion.
Cruise missiles, being aerodynamic vehicles, do not need the rapid response cycle time that ballistic missiles must have to keep the vehicle under control and on an appropriate track.
Russia has produced new cruise missiles with new speeds , US still depend on old versions , but they announced to produce modern ones.
But we are not talking about the future.. what they might do or not.. we are speaking about what they have now.. Cruise missiles do need rapid response time.. specially when they fly very fast.. For USA might not be a big deal ,since their missiles are 5x time slower subsonic speed.. but for Russia.. their missiles have been for decades supersonic speed.. Mach 3.0+ and now they testing Hypersonic ones with mach 7.0 speeds.. for fast traveling you really need very fast response satellite guidance. Because just one second delay could be the difference between a low flying cruise missile to crash into a mountain or avoid it .. .
About the Satellites altitude.. i though the differences where much bigger but still 1,100km difference and the newer equipment electronics in GLonass ,will make the difference in stronger signal than the GPS ones.. This is mentioned in the report that Glonass have better penetration on buildings.. so all makes sense. Don't think it have to do with a windown open or not.. but with the stronger signal than GPS.
Than american antiship cruise missiles are limited to subsonic speed.. because they cannot actualize fast enough the missile positioning with the terrain data. Like Glonass can
American anti ship missiles are subsonic because they have never invested money in developing faster missiles and never felt they needed faster missiles.... if they need to defeat some third world country with a navy they can just launch lots of missiles...the same way the overwhelm land based SAM defences...
the civilian signal of Navstar is limited so supersonic navigation is not possible with the civilian free to air signal... which is why GLONASS was always critical to the Russian military.
They said they want to jam specific area not all GPS over Afghanistan
They don't need to jam anything... they control the signal.
They can turn off areas or shift positions 300m to the left at will. I rather doubt the Taleban are using GPS anyway.... perhaps in their new stealth fighters or guided bombs?
Most Afghans probably couldn't read a map and wouldn't know map coordinates if you tattooed them on their childrens backsides.
they know how to get from one place to another however.... but they don't use Navstar signals for that or likely anything else. Certainly for non locals they might use Navstar... but not the military signal... they will be using the civilian signal... which the US would not jam... it would just turn off or shift 100km in one direction.
Leonid Gusev, an outstanding Russian space designer and one of the authors of the GLONASS navigation system, has passed away on Wednesday, the Russian Space Systems Corporation told TASS.
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