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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Indian Flanker
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    Post  Indian Flanker Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I have read some conflicting reports about the inception of Su-30. Some reports say that PVO wanted a plane that has similar dogfighting/ A2A ability of the Su-27S, but should have a longer range. Hence they chose the 2 seater derivative of Su-27 i.e. Su-27UB, because it had a very similar aerodynamic performance like the Su-27 and had 2 pilots, which simply meant less load for the pilots for a long mission.

    The two seat Su-27UB has less range than the standard single seat Su-27 because the second cockpit reduces fuel capacity, but retains full radar and air to air capability.
    The 2-seat Su-27UB, did have short range vis-a-vis Su-27S. But we're talking about Su-27PU from which the Su-30 is derived. Even though PU looked exactly the same as UB from outside, yet it had a longer range, infact almost double the range of all flankers of that time. As for the first time, they developed in-flight refueling compatability for this plane, which was not available in Su-27 or Su-27UB.

    So, I think the reports which state that it was long-endurance version of the single seater flanker are quite true, alongwith everything you have said.









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    Post  Indian Flanker Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:53 pm

    GJ Flanker wrote:If the situation in Ukraine should escalate, the Su-30SM would be the ideal fighter aircraft to use.
    Alongwith Su-35S Very Happy

    The Su-30SM possesses serious attack capabilities and supermanoeuvrability, both in one aircraft. The pilot-operator combination should exclude any mistakes by the human factor.
    Indeed. As a A2A fighter it is absolutely top notch, and over the years it has evolved seriously as a ground attack striker as well. The Chinese use their Su-30MKK more as a striker than a fighter. The Indians use their MKI for both these jobs, and it does so with aplomb.

    Still Su-35S could patrol over the Crimea/Black Sea to ensure a deeper look into the Ukrainian airspace.
    Su-35S is a great A2A fighter, and a very good striker.


    Su-34 is a tremendous striker and a decent fighter.


    While, Su-30SM can combine both these attributes in one single package(Of course not at the level of the above two, but still very good). Thanks to its tandem 2 pilot layout, it can do complex ground strike mission, and thanks to its highly unstable triplane configuration(like the Su-37 Terminator), it can prove to be a demon of the sky, when the need arrives.


    So, while Su-35S and Su-34 are best for their role, Su-30SM also plays a very important role in controlling Russia's air space, or to strike down their enemies.

    A Su-30SM carrying BrahMos or Yakhont cruise missile can be a frightening foe, IMO Very Happy
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    Post  medo Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:44 pm

    I think for now all air force Su-35 and Su-30SM will serve in far East to cover large territories with their long range. RuAF have quite a small number of planes there, so they will need 3 to 4 regiments of both type to properly protect air space and replace older planes. There are also hot spots in Far East like Korea or islands between Japan and China.

    I think in Black Sea region as well as in Baltic, there will be mostly naval Su-30SM. RuAF will equip their regiments with Su-34 to replace Su-24 and with more Mig-29SMT to replace older Mig-29 as there are shorter distances to cover. Maybe additional Su-27SM3 for air base in Belarus. I hope Mig-35 will soon come to production to replace older Migs.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:46 am

    Su-30 for Russian Air Force - Page 9 113940_199270493_Su-30sm%20211
    Indian Flanker
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    Post  Indian Flanker Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:49 am

    TR1 wrote:Su-30 for Russian Air Force - Page 9 113940_199270493_Su-30sm%20211
    Awesome picture. Love this greyish blue colour scheme which Russians use for their Su-30SM and Su-35S.

    BTW, is that Su-30SM in your signature in the KP forum?
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    Post  TR1 Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:16 am

    The black bird?

    Nah that's the S-37 test bird.

    My fav Sukhoi of all time Very Happy .
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    Post  Indian Flanker Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:10 am

    TR1 wrote:The black bird?

    Nah that's the S-37 test bird.

    My fav Sukhoi of all time Very Happy .
    Nope. Its a regular flanker that you've in your sig at key publishing forum. Just want to confirm which one is it?


    EDIT: Yes, re-checked its S-37 Berkut. It was really an awesome looking bird. Sad that the Russians never mass-produced it.
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    Post  Indian Flanker Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:23 am

    Is it true that Su-30SM has slightly more engine thrust when compared with Su-30MKI?
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    Post  TR1 Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:40 am

    Indian Flanker wrote:Is it true that Su-30SM has slightly more engine thrust when compared with Su-30MKI?

    Same engine so I find it unlikely.
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    Post  Indian Flanker Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:03 pm

    If NATO sanctions the import of warfare technology to Russia, will this affect production of Su-30SM? I don't know how much French stuff it uses vis-a-vis Su-30MKI!
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    Post  Stealthflanker Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:03 pm

    Indian Flanker wrote:If NATO sanctions the import of warfare technology to Russia, will this affect production of Su-30SM? I don't know how much French stuff it uses vis-a-vis Su-30MKI!

    Well as far as i know the only thing affected would be set of ring laser gyros and multi functional displays. Russians can look to its own industry as substitute.

    So i say won't really affect Su-30SM production at all. Beside if needed anyway Russia can source it from Indian parts i think  Laughing 
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    Post  TR1 Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:45 pm

    The HUD is Thales too.
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    Post  Indian Flanker Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:19 am

    Stealthflanker wrote: Beside if needed anyway Russia can source it from Indian parts i think  Laughing 
    They already do that. Read this report:
    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-02-08/news/36993326_1_su-30s-premier-indian-aerospace-irkut-corporation


    Russia has placed orders worth Rs 65 crore for procuring 34 radar computers for Su-30s of its air force.

    "Irkut Corporation of Russia has confirmed purchase of 34 sets each of Radar Computer-I & Radar Computer-II for Russian Air force requirements from HAL with delivery schedule commencing from January 2014 onwards," the premier Indian aerospace PSU said in a release.

    "The value of the contract is Rs 65 crore," it said. Radar computers are integrated into Airborne Radar System in Su-30s and are very critical for mission operation of the aircraft," it said.

    Till date, a total of 300 of these computers are produced by the HAL for various aircraft programmes of Indian Air Force, Algerian Air force and Russian Airforce through Rosoboronexport.

    HAL is in-charge for license-producing the Su-30MKIs for the IAF and has been working towards indigenising several components of the aircraft to reduce dependence on imports for spare parts and other equipment.

    Under the Indian programme, more than 190 Su-30MKIs would be produced in Indian facilities in Nashik, which is the HAL hub for manufacturing Russian-origin aircraft.


    @TR1

    If France bans the sale of Thales HUD, would Russia look to exchange the Thales HUD with their own one? Or would they look to procure it underhand from HAL(say HAL orders these Thales HUDs for themselves, and then supplies it to Irkut)?







    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:36 am

    Indian Flanker wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote: Beside if needed anyway Russia can source it from Indian parts i think  Laughing 
    They already do that. Read this report:
    http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-02-08/news/36993326_1_su-30s-premier-indian-aerospace-irkut-corporation


    Russia has placed orders worth Rs 65 crore for procuring 34 radar computers for Su-30s of its air force.

    "Irkut Corporation of Russia has confirmed purchase of 34 sets each of Radar Computer-I & Radar Computer-II for Russian Air force requirements from HAL with delivery schedule commencing from January 2014 onwards," the premier Indian aerospace PSU said in a release.

    "The value of the contract is Rs 65 crore," it said. Radar computers are integrated into Airborne Radar System in Su-30s and are very critical for mission operation of the aircraft," it said.

    Till date, a total of 300 of these computers are produced by the HAL for various aircraft programmes of Indian Air Force, Algerian Air force and Russian Airforce through Rosoboronexport.

    HAL is in-charge for license-producing the Su-30MKIs for the IAF and has been working towards indigenising several components of the aircraft to reduce dependence on imports for spare parts and other equipment.

    Under the Indian programme, more than 190 Su-30MKIs would be produced in Indian facilities in Nashik, which is the HAL hub for manufacturing Russian-origin aircraft.


    @TR1

    If France bans the sale of Thales HUD, would Russia look to exchange the Thales HUD with their own one? Or would they look to procure it underhand from HAL(say HAL orders these Thales HUDs for themselves, and then supplies it to Irkut)?








    If France sanctions Russia to that extent, then Russia could just as easily copy the technology and be self-sufficient.
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    Post  TR1 Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:48 am

    Hmmm.
    The MKI uses an older HUD than the SM, so they couldn't just grab them from HAL (unless the French asked no questions as to why HAL ordered the same ones that SM uses).
    I think more likely they would integrate the domestic ones from the Su-35.
    That takes time however...I think Thales won't stop sales.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:56 am

    I agree with TR-1 on this... the French know that stopping sales of military gear for what ever made up reason just hurts military sales and has no tangible effect anyway... The Russians wont suddenly demand Ukrainian forces come in and take possession of the Crimea and ask the EU if it wants its gas for free for ten years as an appology.

    Not selling French HUDs will just hurt French HUD makers.
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    Post  medo Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:49 pm

    I think Russia could easily integrate Irbis radar, computers and HUD from Su-35 to Su-30SM. They have all needed domestic equipment.
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    Post  Indian Flanker Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:19 am

    TR1 wrote:I think Thales won't stop sales.
    Depends on how Uncle Sam dictates terms with France and other NATO countries.


    PS: USSR went down because of its internal problems, but USA's role can not be undermined in that fiasco. Now they are trying to isolate Russia from rest of the world and squeeze its power. Russia should be very careful with this megalomaniac self-indulgent Uncle Sam.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:13 am

    If the US wants to try to tell France and Germany who they can or cannot sell stuff to I want to have a good supply of popcorn when we get the translation of what the French and German diplomats say about that... I find both French and German foul language amusing...  Very Happy 
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    Post  Indian Flanker Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:54 pm

    Old article, but presents a nice American perspective about this new Russian bird:
    http://www.aofs.org/2012/11/26/russian-5th-gen-su-30sm-super-maneuverable-jet-fighters/



    Russian 5th-gen Su-30SM super-maneuverable jet fighters

    The Russian air force took delivery this month of the first two of a planned 30 Sukhoi Su-30SM jet fighters. This aircraft, an advanced version of the Su-30MKI fighter that Russia developed together with India, takes Russian military aviation a big step forward.

    At first glance, the new Su-30SM twin-engine fighter has a profile that looks similar to the U.S. Air Force Boeing F-15E jet fighter-bomber. It has straight up-and-down twin tails and big square engine intakes. Suffice it to say, this aircraft isn’t stealthy like the U.S. Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35 combat aircraft.

    The Su-30SM presents a big fat radar cross section, which could make it detectable at long ranges. Still, I don’t think surprise and stealth is a big part of this new aircraft. The Su-30SM is big, powerful, and looks like it’s designed for close-up dogfighting.

    Although the Su-30SM is weak in stealth capabilities, its major ace-in-the-hole is its maneuverability. The aircraft has one of the most modern thrust vectoring systems in the world, and most likely would be a match even for the world’s most advanced jet fighters in close-quarters combat.
    Thrust vectoring means the Su-30SM has the ability to manipulate the direction of its engine thrust to control speed and turning. Few other of the world’s aircraft have this capability. In the U.S. only the F-22 and F-35 have any thrust vectoring capability at all, and perhaps not as advanced as the Su-30SM.

    When we think of jet fighters, we usually think speed; the faster the aircraft can get to the fight, the more effective it will be. Still, the main advantage of the Su-30SM might be its ability to fly slowly.

    The jet’s thrust vectoring gives it the ability to hang in the air virtually motionless without stalling. When it does that, everyone else just flies right past it. Few other combat aircraft in the world may be as maneuverable as the Su-30SM.

    In addition to thrust vectoring, the new Russian fighter — like its Su-30MKI predecessor — has avionics appropriate for fighters, ground-attack capabilities, and canards and a long-range phased-array radar system for the air-superiority role.

    For proponents of advanced fighters like the F-35, F-22, and the Eurofighter, looks like there’s a new game in town.




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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:20 pm

    A couple of points...

    First of all Russian fighters are not designed to fight on their own... they will have IADS support which means while a stealth fighter might be able to detect the Flanker at very long range and not be detected on the Flankers large radar till it gets much closer, the Flanker will likely also know that stealth aircraft is there because of the data coming in from other platforms including ground based radar and assets.

    Assuming they both have a general idea of where the other is... what can happen next?

    Both have BVR missiles, but without a lock the Flanker wont be able to fire unless it gets new IIR seeker long range missiles. For the super expensive US planes however the situation is not much better because AMRAAM can be defeated and once the stealth plane has fired 4-6 of them it is down to guns and WVR missiles and dogfighting.

    In other words the stealth concept of the long range sniper falls over when all the enemy are sitting in armoured vehicles and if the only way to fight the enemy is get up close and personal then thrust vector engines and lots of IR guided missiles should win the fight... which is going to be carrying lots of IR or IIR guided missiles and have full 3D TVC engines?
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:01 am

    GarryB wrote:A couple of points...

    First of all Russian fighters are not designed to fight on their own... they will have IADS support which means while a stealth fighter might be able to detect the Flanker at very long range and not be detected on the Flankers large radar till it gets much closer, the Flanker will likely also know that stealth aircraft is there because of the data coming in from other platforms including ground based radar and assets.

    Assuming they both have a general idea of where the other is... what can happen next?

    Both have BVR missiles, but without a lock the Flanker wont be able to fire unless it gets new IIR seeker long range missiles. For the super expensive US planes however the situation is not much better because AMRAAM can be defeated and once the stealth plane has fired 4-6 of them it is down to guns and WVR missiles and dogfighting.

    In other words the stealth concept of the long range sniper falls over when all the enemy are sitting in armoured vehicles and if the only way to fight the enemy is get up close and personal then thrust vector engines and lots of IR guided missiles should win the fight... which is going to be carrying lots of IR or IIR guided missiles and have full 3D TVC engines?

    I don't think it matters who has more IR missiles when the opponent has at least 4 already. I don't think that an engagement ever decided in the 5th or 6th BVR missile.
    Also I don't think  that you can pass so easily this phrase
    once the stealth plane has fired 4-6 of them it is down to guns and WVR missiles and dogfighting
    I sense that you once again speculate wildly and what your "brain simulations" produce sound and look unnatural.
    Having said this, I do think that SU30  have it's chances if
    -in a setup fight (meaning that both sides know and been prepared for it's other)
    -with enough planes for it's side to guarantee enough density in the sky
    -and finally if SU30 act in an aggressive role

    It's not about one on one like you "simulate" but more that Sukhoi has better range, can remain more time in the sky, needs less maintenance, can fly more sorties, cost much less and can be produced in greater numbers. This factors can seriously be killers in a REAL situation.
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    Post  Indian Flanker Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:16 am

    I don't think Garry's theory is "that unnatural" to be honest! What happened in Vietnam should suffice to bring forth the point that the days of gun-fighting and coming to a merge is not over, and may not be over even in future.


    Having said that even though TVC equipped super-flankers may or most probably will beat F-22 and F-35 or any other fighter of the world in an 1-on-1 guns only dogfighting scenario. But American planes do have their own advantages in the BVR fight regime, that I am willing to concede.


    But once the PAK-FA project matures in few years time, even this BVR/stealth advantage that the Americans rave about so much will most likely lose its value...and then we shall come back to the days of in-merge dogfighting, which is where the Russian fighters right from the day of good ol' Mig-21 excel. Very Happy
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    Post  Werewolf Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:35 am

    When you speak about dogfight please do never mention F-35, this duck can be shot down in a dogfight by MiG-21 or Mirage 2000.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:14 am

    I don't think it matters who has more IR missiles when the opponent has at least 4 already. I don't think that an engagement ever decided in the 5th or 6th BVR missile.

    BVR missiles are far from perfect... experience has shown that even against unaware enemies with no modern RHAWS and self defence suites there is a 50% survival rate, so one would expect this to fairly dramatically change in a modern aircraft like the Su-30MKI... especially when fitted with equipment to deal with incoming threats.

    Modern IIR missiles are more of a threat than BVR missiles, but can also be dealt with using modern DIRCMs.

    It matters who has the most when 4 Raptors with 24 AMRAAMs and a 20mm cannon get bounced by 4 Su-30MKIs with 24 R-77s plus 24 R-73s or improved models and 30mm cannons...

    Even in training it has been proven F-22s can be beaten in dogfights... it was designed as a sniper to wipe out enemy forces from a stand off distance from the high ground... The problem for the F-22 is that the AMRAAM is not a perfect weapon and with the introduction of the FFGA wont be able to be used at long range either...

    It's not about one on one like you "simulate" but more that Sukhoi has better range, can remain more time in the sky, needs less maintenance, can fly more sorties, cost much less and can be produced in greater numbers. This factors can seriously be killers in a REAL situation.

    There will only ever be 189 F-22s produced and allowing for shrinking numbers due to attrition it is very unlikely a country like India would face an overwhelming number of F-22s. The F-35 on the other hand is supposed to be produced in the thousands, but as you point out range or lack of, cost, etc etc are all in favour of the Su-30MKI and could be exploited by a smart enemy.

    The US seems to be turning away from Pakistan and once US troops are out of Afghanistan (if they ever are) then Pakistan will become a liability rather than an ally... a bit like Saddam after he invaded Kuwaite.

    this means no land based F-22s and probably only ship based F-35s facing India... or chinese rip offs...

    What happened in Vietnam should suffice to bring forth the point that the days of gun-fighting and coming to a merge is not over, and may not be over even in future.

    Every so often people start to think that missiles are developed to the point where they wont miss. This generally proves to be not the case as defences and countermeasures improve too.

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