LMFS wrote: GunshipDemocracy wrote:None of VSTOL in Vmode yet. Technically i think it can be achieved, but unlikely will be implemented due to costs. Value of such an approach for military could be a start by half squadron vertically in sudden combat situations.
A threat that is so close that it cannot wait 5-10 minutes for the squadron to take off maybe doesn't need full tanks...
It can even wait hours but in 10 minutes US stealth missile flies 150km or US attack fighters 250?
BTW 250kN engine was already proposed for, only STOL, Yak 43... also light fighter in Yak-41 class.
Thrust of the engine alone says nothing, it is T/W that matters.
empty weight Yak-141 - 11,500kg, Since Yak-43 didnt have vertical lift engines could be around those numbers.
MiG-35 has empty weight 13,5tons and normal load 18,500kg, Thrust(with afterburner) x2 90kN. So with 2x 180kN could start vertically with MTOW
Nein, 11 tones empty from what I have seen. What are your sources?
An airframe designed for RD-33 cannot house AL-41 class engine...
Empty weight:Russian wiki,but I assume I was wrong and you're right as not many places repeat this wight.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%93-35
Масса пустого: 13500 кг - empty weight 13,500kg
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/mig-35/ they say ~11,000kgs
AL41, you're right but I was talking about a fighter of this size/weight category. Not MiG-35 as you cannot continue making only upgrades instead of designing new machines. .
J-39 Grippen has empty weight 8000kg, MTOW =16500kg. In this situation one AL-41 izd 30 with 180kN could do the job.
Of course J-39 size/weight category with izd 30 could start vertically even with normal weight and only STOL with MTOW.
Grippen A had empty weight of 6.6 tones, 8 tones is new E version. Again, engine is a F-414 in the size / thrust class of the RD-33, not the heavy fighter engines of the type F-100/AL-41
From the data available, only plane with T/W close to 1 fully loaded would be Su-57 [/quote]
then we potentially can imagine size of next gen deck fighter if 1 engine layout will be chosen.
MTOW T/W=he he F-35 has with Al-41 T/W < 1
Hmm US required an agile bomb truck with VSTOL which is stealth. Project did not bring desired results. And only VSTOL is guilty? F-35 is perfect example that you cannot have it all. External size/proportions dont change comparing with A i C So why it should be a problem with VSTOL only?
I have explained my take on that above, was it
not understandable?
no, Yak design proves you're wrong it has no bulky profile, But Yaks were not optimized to be stealth bomb trucks as well as didnt have CTOL version.
You can have a morally "decent" plane, but it is going to be worse than if now vertical lift HW was present. This is how things are done now, with HW which is ADDITIONAL. If this can be avoided then we could discuss about STOVL not being inherently worse than CTOL in terms of performance. Until then, there is simply nothing to discuss, in our universe something is always > nothing. Logical contradictions are not a matter of point of view you know...
Hmm why do you assume always VSTOL has to be "additional" to CTOL?What about to build VSTOL only fighter?
You really dont have to repeat ad nausea that you cannot have all. I was first to point that to you BTW
Not every time stealth or payload is most important. Speed or agility then is not necessarily worse than fighters of the same class.
In 80s Harrier had 97kN engine, Yak-141 150kN, perhaps new one can have something close to 200kN. Regardless of this new light materials, new avionics do make difference.
[quote This is not an easy problem to solve, especially when the plane descends and the vortexes naturally direct the hot air of the nozzles to the intake in the higher side of the plane BTW. So it was in all probability a design compromise considered necessary to ensure safe operation. Can a solution be found? Maybe but that is pure speculation, even beyond of what we normally do...
[/quote]
True we need to see what solution with new tech can be found. With new materials, computer control tech many old problems can be solved. New fighter will be 20 years younger then F-35...