5th gen light mulltirole fighter/Mikoyan LMFS

I doubt LMFS will see the light of the day when there are so many new Airforce program with high priority name a few PAK-DA , Mig-41 , UCAV

GarryB wrote:Personally I think a hybrid small cheap fighter would be a great idea.

A small light low cost aircraft that can either carry a modest payload internally in a stealthy mode or carry large amounts of ordinance externally in a non stealthy bomb truck type role.

Don't try to give it super long range sensors or super long range fire power... just make it small, light stealthy enough, and cheap to build and operate and maintain.

And make about 400.


The key will be low cost to buy and to use... for general patrol duties you don't need a PAK FA and having a small stealthy plane to operate with Su-35s and MiG-35s and MiG-41s will be useful...

I agree. It´s not all about maximum quality in the sense of maximum preformance. The Pak fa will meet those demands. It´s also a numbers game. Just look at the positioning of the russian air bases, the ojects they need to defend, the role of the aircraft and the strategy. They need a new low cost workhorse, in the mig-29 role, suited up to meet tomorrows standards of threats. With todays budget it´s impossible to build a 500+ feet pak fa´s. But a 250+fleet pak fa´s and a 250+ 5-gen light fighter in the middle term (10/15 years) is feesible i guess.

Russia’s MiG to Develop Fifth-Generation Jet Fighter

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150620/1023632156.html

The MiG-35 4++ generation advanced multirole fighter could be used as a platform for building the new fifth-generation aircraft.

MiG aircraft-making company will develop a fifth-generation light jet fighter, company CEO Sergei Korotkov said during the 2015 Le Bourget Airshow.

"Such a plane has not been ordered yet. But we continue to work on it. We know that there is a broad worldwide market for this type of aircraft," Korotkov said.

He also pointed out that currently many countries across the globe use the MiG-29 aircraft, and they need a plane to replace it.

The MiG-35 4++ generation advanced multirole fighter could be used as a platform for building the fifth-generation aircraft. Mass production of the MiG-35 has repeatedly been delayed, including due to the absence of buyers.

However, in April Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said the Russian arms procurement program presumes delivering 30 MiG-35 aircraft to the Air Force by 2020.

Another fifth-generation jet fighter for the Russian Air Force – T-50 (PAK FA) – is already in development. It is planned to be an attack aircraft. Currently, three prototypes are undergoing flight tests. Three more planes will be delivered for testing by the end of the year. The first T-50 aircraft are planned to be delivered to the Air Force from between the end of 2016 and the beginning of 2017.

Russia needs new combat aircraft, the more the better. The new situation dictates the dynamics of development of brand new Russian gear. A decision to modernize all T-90A to T-90M standard is a sign ain that direction. Mikoyan must come with something brand new. Sukhoi has already many delivery projects. I don't think a new MiG would be inferior comparing with T-50 and if we also get a MiG-41 than the picture will be complete.

It is possible that this new MiG will top anything else out there in the world, even T-50 and F-22A. By logic, it will be a much younger project than all others. New solutions would be built in from the very start, like GaN AESA, X-core 16 nm processors and other things.

I think the main aim is to bring Mikoyan to Sukhoi revenue level.

Let us face it, as cost of goods are going up and Russia has been forced to tighten its belt regarding funding on nearly anything, a 5th gen lightweight fighter is going to become quite important.  Most wars are either a fight of attrition or would end in hours if gone nuclear.  So having a jet that is cheap to field while being able to hold its own quite well, is important.

But why should it be not only expensive but takes long to come out?  Already KRET has the technologies for a fifth gen like fighter.  They could effectively use what they learned from MiG-35 so far, improve its subsystems, and come up with a newer airframe.  To reduce costs, they could use shaping a lot more effectively than relying on RAM material for stealth as RAM is quite expensive, while shaping wouldn't be (they could use computers to help come up with the design.  Of course, the set basis for it could be MiG-29 shape.

But a jet that would cost roughly $30 - $50M per unit would be ideal, as it would be significantly cheaper than PAK FA, while being reasonable in terms of price, could still be capable.  Theoretically, Su-34's are listed as cheaper than Su-35's and are very capable aircrafts, hence the large purchase for them (well, and their needs).

GJ Flanker wrote:Russia needs new combat aircraft, the more the better. The new situation dictates the dynamics of development of brand new Russian gear. A decision to modernize all T-90A to T-90M standard is a sign ain that direction. Mikoyan must come with something brand new. Sukhoi has already many delivery projects. I don't think a new MiG would be inferior comparing with T-50 and if we also get a MiG-41 than the picture will be complete.

It is possible that this new MiG will top anything else out there in the world, even T-50 and F-22A. By logic, it will be a much younger project than all others. New solutions would be built in from the very start, like GaN AESA, X-core 16 nm processors and other things.  

I think the main aim is to bring Mikoyan to Sukhoi revenue level.

Problem with low nanometer processors are that their shieldings for against radiation. Most processors used for military purposes are usually around 180 - 90nm processing with specialized shieldings. Very expensive. Like F-22's and Su-30MKI's use the Intel i960x processor which is quite old in terms of regular computer use, but are quite ideal for radar technology. The ones ideal for Russia will be the Elbrus 2C+ or 2SM which are localized production and 90nm with 6 physical cores of two of them being the Elbrus E2K core and 4 being of Elvees DSP cores.

Also, I know very little currently about the modules for radar technology coming out from Russia but my understanding is that NPP Istok is the one who produces the current T/R Modules for both KRET and Tikhomirov NPP. I read that back in 2009 (?) they were working on GaN modules but heard nothing more. They are the makers of the current T/R modules of GaAS in Russia and very odd reports here and there of its performances. Some claim they operate in the 10W field, and others say 5W field with MiG-35's having real trouble powering them, something to 3 - 3.5W and thus gives apparent poor performance. Rumor for same modules used for the N036 radar for PAK FA and there is total power being sent to the radar is around 10 - 15KW and gives roughly rumored or theoretical 400km detection range of the Irbis E, which requires similar amount of power.

GarryB wrote:The focus will be to keep costs low... don't try to make it a super plane... fit mature and capable systems... don't try to make it everything to everyone like the F-35s.

Well what wonders me is - why MiG´s representative explicitly mentioned MiG-35. If this is 35 frame then why not MiG-35M? Or this is going to frame remake?


BTW mentioning F-35 actually some solutions were borrowed fomr Yak-141 which IMHO should be resurrected for navy.

near the end of video about F-35. I am not sure how much this is true and how much constructors´ perception.

When they say they will use the MiG-35 as the basis, I imagine it will be mostly of its subsystems and possibly engines.  Modified RD-33 engines could very well do the job just fine.

Chances are, it will be something much like MiG-35 but just airframe changes and powersupply.  Let us not forget, that the MiG-29's suffer from lower detection/engagement ranges (noticed this on both its ESA and AESA radars) that seems to be derived from power supply issues.  If they can fix this, they could very well have a powerful aircraft in a small package.  Using current technologies will just speed up development as well as reducing costs.

At this point, with Mikoyans poor number of orders, they will need to come up with something soon or they will fall behind greatly and even possibly lose itself entirely (although, they could use the extra space at sokol plant to produce more sukhoi parts but that is besides the point). So they will need to come up with something that will be either both export oriented or domestic demand, and an aircraft that is both competitive and cheap. Russia will need this in order to help itself develop a capable airforce as now the budgets have been changing.

Russia Developing Fifth Generation Lightweight Fighter Jet

LMFS??

Werent there mentions that future light multirole fighter will be single engined? If its based on Mig35 technology and if they follow ideas that LMFS had it will be twin engined then.

Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy

Not going to happen unless state funded , Mig is just toying with the idea with its own fund

Austin wrote:Not going to happen unless state funded , Mig is just toying with the idea with its own fund

Not exactly. Su-35S was a total knaapo funded project. Mikoyan could pull it off by using some already old blueprints and equipment they are working with for MiG-35

As well, we dont really know if the government isnt funding it or not.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy

Hmm, seems like its not state funded, what i did hear about state funded project is that they wanted to base it on MiG35.... from where da hell now comes this 1.44 thing. And you can see "In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company.", ofc its not, there is simply not enough money... What will happen, is that they will use MiG35 base, and use PAK FA solutions to make it stealthier, probably make smaller version of its radar suite with main radar having 1000 modues and thats about it. They will make it affordable much as possible and base it on existing solution, just my opinion tho.

Militarov wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44

""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."

Hmm, seems like its not state funded, what i did hear about state funded project is that they wanted to base it on MiG35.... from where da hell now comes this 1.44 thing. And you can see "In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company.", ofc its not, there is simply not enough money... What will happen, is that they will use MiG35 base, and use PAK FA solutions to make it stealthier, probably make smaller version of its radar suite with main radar having 1000 modues and thats about it. They will make it affordable much as possible and base it on existing solution, just my opinion tho.

In press article was mentioned that no plans was earlier. Plans change, in the meantime mybe there was funds reshuffling concentrically (?)

a) MiG 1.44 pops up on Maks 2015
b) No more info about Skat heavy droves but pops up info about Yak derived ones

The think that puzzles me is they said light but MiG 1.44 is in the same class size/wight as PAK-FA. SO light one based on Mig 1.44 and maybe again they also will use MiG 1.44 basis for new interceptor ? Max speed was something like 3,200 km/h

I stand by my statement. If Mikoyan wasnt working on one or developing one or whatever, they wouldnt have mentioned it multiple of times. That said, the move towards using MiG 1.44 as the basis of the new jet is a good idea, and will save a lot of money when developing it. Add in, using the technologies learned and learning for MiG-35, will definately help. If they can make a fifth gen fighter at the price point of an Su-35S, they could very well obtain many orders, and would be ideal for Russia.

Like I said, Su-35S was knaapo self fubded endevour. After recent orders and such for MiG-29K, M's and upgrades, they more than likely earned enough money to at least start this program. They may see the potential orders for Su-35S as an example.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy

Most probably they will develop MiG-31 replacement based on MiG-1-44.

medo wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44


http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2300532

""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."





Well now I am impatiently waiting for new Yak-141II for Russian Navy

Most probably they will develop MiG-31 replacement based on MiG-1-44.

Interceptor on 1.44 base is plausible to happen imo.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:Source: "MiG" is developing a second Russian fifth-generation aircraft based on the MiG-1.44

""RSK "MiG" is developing a second version of the PAK FA. Based on the aerodynamic configuration of the MiG-1.44 and those developments that were on this prototype," - said the Agency interlocutor.
According to him, "it would be a lightweight variant of the PAK FA" will not compete with the model T-50 designed by Sukhoi.
In June the Corporation that the Corporation continues to work on a light fighter of the fifth generation, despite the absence of the order. Earlier it was reported that the platform for this aircraft may be the MiG-35. In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company."

Hmm, seems like its not state funded, what i did hear about state funded project is that they wanted to base it on MiG35.... from where da hell now comes this 1.44 thing. And you can see "In the United aircraft Corporation said that the establishment of a light fighter is not a priority for the company.", ofc its not, there is simply not enough money... What will happen, is that they will use MiG35 base, and use PAK FA solutions to make it stealthier, probably make smaller version of its radar suite with main radar having 1000 modues and thats about it. They will make it affordable much as possible and base it on existing solution, just my opinion tho.

In press article was mentioned that no plans was earlier. Plans change, in the meantime mybe there was funds reshuffling concentrically (?)  

a) MiG 1.44 pops up on Maks 2015
b) No more info about Skat heavy droves but  pops up info about Yak derived ones

The think that puzzles me is they said light but MiG 1.44 is in the same class size/wight as PAK-FA. SO light one based on Mig 1.44 and maybe again they also will use MiG 1.44 basis for new interceptor ? Max speed was something like 3,200 km/h

Well what they ment is that they will use solutions from 1.44, its not mandatory to keep same size. Well VM-T Atlant was there too, but noone is expecting Russians to revive that project

Yak derived drones are around in talks since late 90s, i remember reading about it in 2000. or so in local Aviation magazine, so it doesnt mean much. Skat seems to have been going "underground" since it was taken as project from MiG, doesnt have to mean its dead.

Militarov wrote: Well what they ment is that they will use solutions from 1.44, its not mandatory to keep same size. Well VM-T Atlant was there too, but noone is expecting Russians to revive that project

Yak derived drones are around in talks since late 90s, i remember reading about it in 2000. or so in local Aviation magazine, so it doesnt mean much. Skat seems to have been going "underground" since it was taken as project from MiG, doesnt have to mean its dead.

No Atlant? no Sh!t mate !

Yup but whether they use MiG 1.44 solutions on both lightweight and cheaper one (theme T-50) aandd supa dupa interceptor? I hope they do, but we´ll need to be patient

As for Yak drones -IMHO very good way to decrease unit costs for Yak . All based on one frame and technologies. Unlike MiG even assembly line can be partially used. SO light multirole (export mianly) , trainer and drone.

Only Yak-141 is missing

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote: Well what they ment is that they will use solutions from 1.44, its not mandatory to keep same size. Well VM-T Atlant was there too, but noone is expecting Russians to revive that project

Yak derived drones are around in talks since late 90s, i remember reading about it in 2000. or so in local Aviation magazine, so it doesnt mean much. Skat seems to have been going "underground" since it was taken as project from MiG, doesnt have to mean its dead.

No Atlant? no Sh!t mate !

Yup but whether they use MiG 1.44 solutions on both lightweight and cheaper one (theme T-50) aandd supa dupa interceptor? I hope they do, but we´ll need to be patient

As for Yak drones -IMHO very good way to decrease unit costs for Yak . All based on one frame and technologies. Unlike MiG even assembly line can be partially used. SO light multirole (export mianly) , trainer and drone.

Only Yak-141 is missing

Directly from the site of Yakovlev regarding Yak130 platform.

People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

Flanky wrote:People do the fact that having lightweight PAK-FA is not a priority does not mean that there is zero interrest from goverment. It just means that they want to finish T-50 and put it into production before focusing on LMFI. By the time this change of focus happens MIG is perfectly capable of funding the research using its own funds. That would significantly shorten the development time and by the time MoD will provide the funds MIG would have finished some part of the research and development efforts. I have read that the goverment indeed plans to have and even export lighter version of 5th gen fighter. So the approach MIG takes is the right one.

Russia badly lacks light single engined fighter they didnt have one basically since MiG21, cheap single engined fighters are needed for air patrols, training, building pilot hours in air etc, especially great solution if they are unified with bigger twin engine platform and built on same core (radar, engine, controls layout, common parts...). Something of a Tejas class lets say, to cost 20-25mil USD so its available in quantities.