Project 677: Lada class submarine

GarryB wrote:Weapons and systems and sensors are becoming more unified and modular... Kilos will likely get Lada based bits in upgrades and over time they will all become more and more alike.

Only making a few Lada class subs makes sense when the replacement design based on what has been learned in the development of Kilo upgrades and Lada subs is going to be ready soon.

The Lada is more of a political sub than anything, Improved kilos are just has good the thing with Lada was it was supposed to get The jets.

Since it's far too expensive to rip the kilos open to install the jets.

I suspect they just got a couple more to justify the class in general, this isn't unusual every navy has this type of situation.

Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

But wait, RuN actually building a ship that their shipyards can handle in sufficient volume.... (Grigorovich, improved Kilo)
Not happening. Moar pork barrel projects for the masses

KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing? BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

Improved Kilo is something akin to T-90A. Russia in its infinite defense procurement wisdom also stopped production of T-90

GarryB wrote:The first three never had AIP systems to begun ith so I don't know what you are talking about in that regard.

I'm saying that they are useless and serve no purpose in being operational in such low number, when improved Kilo production can serve the same mission in a more consolidated fashion. It's just like the F-35, they inducted useless early blocks instead of the full capability.

KiloGolf wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

Improved Kilo is something akin to T-90A. Russia in its infinite defense procurement wisdom also stopped production of T-90

You must be an avid reader of Novaya Gazeta (or something similar)...your pearls of wisdom remind me of the rantings of their "expert" contributors

Cyberspec wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

Improved Kilo is something akin to T-90A. Russia in its infinite defense procurement wisdom also stopped production of T-90

You must be an avid reader of Novaya Gazeta (or something similar)...your pearls of wisdom remind me of the rantings of their "expert" contributors

I'm not the one comparing the useful Improved Kilo argument vis a vis non-AIP Lada, to T-55 production restart.

GarryB wrote:

Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

The Lada design was a very ambitious design that was going to be several levels ahead of any other conventional sub.

The first three never had AIP systems to begun ith so I don't know what you are talking about in that regard.

Moar pork barrel projects for the masses

Yeah, because the Russian MIC is exactly the same as the US MIC... not.

The Lada design was a natural progression beyond the Kilo class. It was not until they actually built one and tested it to see if its projected performance equalled reality that they realised they needed to make some changes. Those changes were applied to the two other hulls laid down already.

Three Ladas will enter Russian navy service and will be effective and capable boats no matter what you say.

There might be a fourth boat with an experimental AIP or they could start the Kalina class for testing or alter an existing vessel for testing.

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing? BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

KGs transmitter is currently stuck on whine... he wont be worth listening to until he gets his panties out of his crack and unbunched.

Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.

Nothing in that sub makes it "several levels ahead" you seem to think everything Russia spits out is a dam super weapon, not even most US fanboys I see are this bad in that aspect.

Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all, if the sub was so amazing like you are making it out to be they would not stop at three, they would not have bothered to lay down more improved Kilos for the Pacific fleet. If they had something better available.

so get your fanboyism out of your arguments.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

Considering the Kilos will be in service yet in 2030, that's a question to ask the MoD.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

KiloGolf wrote:Lada is your typical, delayed, overpriced and under-performing jobs program. The current, non-AIP versions have nothing to offer compared to producing more improved Kilos by the dozens (since they decided to kill their SSN fleet anyway).

You have characteristics to compare or just guessing?  BTW hod do you want to upgrade kilos in 2030? still will be OK? then why not reactivate improved T-55. Cheap in production.

Considering the Kilos will be in service yet in 2030, that's a question to ask the MoD.

MoD must work with what they have not necessarily they like. As for Kilos why not upgrade all BMP-2 instead procure something newer? even BMP-3M Proven construction. I
IMHO if you take into consideration that "jumping" on new technological level is un likely for most of shipyards (or any production enterprises) sticking to 80s technology and trying to improve it instead of moving a step forward is not necessarily better option.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.
.......Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all......

Oh please......project 677 "Лада" is simply on a totally different level in comparison with any version of Палтус class in virtually any cardinal parameter among which :

- Volumetric compactness (1,4 coefficient)
- Authomation (about 1,5 coefficient of complement reduction)
- Average/duel/quiet speed (1,2 coeffcient)
- Physical fields (several times in the acoustic field both against active and passive sensor, magnetic and thermal)
- Sonar (about 1,4 range increase)
- Energy consumption (almost a 3 times decrease !)
- Navigation system and under water data reception and dissemination
- Defensive suite


In the Baltic Sea trials "Лада" greatly outperformed the most advanced "Палтус", particularly in capability to invariably evade detection of both air-based and surface-based ASW assets while contemporaneously engaging the ships and submarines hunting it; that even in the very difficult, almost prohibitive, local environmental conditions for submarine operations.

"Палтус" are so popular those days simply because suddenly someone in the west discovered, with Syrian operation, a fragment of what are capable domestic version of this class, but in reality that class not even remotely represent what can offer today Federation's Institutes.

Some years ago i have already attempted to explain that Лада class would have had a short future simply in reason of the fact that its implementation has been completed while (mostly in Рубин) the R&D works for the new "generation" of not-nuclear submarines with vastly increased specifications was already in advanced stage (today it is almost complete); this has effectively turned the class in a "transient" project used to test some of the systems that will be integrated in the much more advanced incoming class.
Simple like that

Mindstorm wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.
.......Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all......

Oh please......project 677 "Лада" is simply on a totally different level in comparison with any version of Палтус class in virtually any cardinal parameter among which :

- Volumetric compactness (1,4 coefficient)
- Authomation  (about 1,5 coefficient of complement reduction)
- Average/duel/quiet speed (1,2 coeffcient)
- Physical fields (several times in the acoustic field both against active and passive sensor, magnetic and thermal)
- Sonar (about 1,4 range increase)
- Energy consumption (almost a 3 times decrease !)
- Navigation system and under water data reception and dissemination
- Defensive suite                                                    


In the Baltic Sea trials "Лада" greatly outperformed the most advanced "Палтус", particularly in capability to invariably evade detection of both air-based and surface-based ASW assets while contemporaneously engaging the ships and submarines hunting it; that even in the very difficult, almost prohibitive, local environmental conditions for submarine operations.

"Палтус" are so popular those days simply because suddenly someone in the west discovered, with Syrian operation, a fragment of what are capable domestic version of this class, but  in reality that class not even remotely represent what can offer today Federation's Institutes.  

Some years ago i have already attempted to explain that Лада class would have had a short future simply in reason of the fact that its implementation has been completed while (mostly in Рубин) the R&D works for the new "generation" of not-nuclear submarines with vastly increased specifications was already in advanced stage (today it is almost complete); this has effectively turned the class in a "transient" project used to test some of the systems that will be integrated in the much more advanced incoming class.
Simple like that  

 

Weapons, tubes and capacity-wise iKilos are the same to those 3 Ladas. On there rest you have a point but I fail to see how it's game-changing to justify 3 odd boats being inducted like that.

Mindstorm wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Lada is not an "ambitious" design it was meant to be an improved kilo with AIP and yes Bud the subs were marketed to be built with AIP but they went back on that once they found they couldn't get it to work.
.......Lada is a slightly better-improved kilo that is all......

Oh please......project 677 "Лада" is simply on a totally different level in comparison with any version of Палтус class in virtually any cardinal parameter among which :

- Volumetric compactness (1,4 coefficient)
- Authomation  (about 1,5 coefficient of complement reduction)
- Average/duel/quiet speed (1,2 coeffcient)
- Physical fields (several times in the acoustic field both against active and passive sensor, magnetic and thermal)
- Sonar (about 1,4 range increase)
- Energy consumption (almost a 3 times decrease !)
- Navigation system and under water data reception and dissemination
- Defensive suite                                                    


In the Baltic Sea trials "Лада" greatly outperformed the most advanced "Палтус", particularly in capability to invariably evade detection of both air-based and surface-based ASW assets while contemporaneously engaging the ships and submarines hunting it; that even in the very difficult, almost prohibitive, local environmental conditions for submarine operations.

"Палтус" are so popular those days simply because suddenly someone in the west discovered, with Syrian operation, a fragment of what are capable domestic version of this class, but  in reality that class not even remotely represent what can offer today Federation's Institutes.  

Some years ago i have already attempted to explain that Лада class would have had a short future simply in reason of the fact that its implementation has been completed while (mostly in Рубин) the R&D works for the new "generation" of not-nuclear submarines with vastly increased specifications was already in advanced stage (today it is almost complete); this has effectively turned the class in a "transient" project used to test some of the systems that will be integrated in the much more advanced incoming class.
Simple like that  

 

If these stats where accurate...the Russians would not have stopped at three so forgive me if I do not buy it, nor would it be the first time the Russians posted inaccurate stats. Yes before someone has to goi "WEll so did the US" we do at times also, I do not deny that.

you can tell me this sub is capable of X but that doesn't mean it's capable of X.

I have long since learned you do not take weapons developers words for fact and that goes for any country US, China or Russia.

so unless you have the technical blueprints to the sub, I am only inclined to consider this just "theories and opinions".

PapaDragon wrote:

Weapons, tubes and capacity-wise iKilos are the same to those 3 Ladas. On there rest you have a point but I fail to see how it's game-changing to justify 3 odd boats being inducted like that.

If those numbers are accurate then it's not some tiny improvement, those are significant step ups, just look at battery upgrades alone

Crew has been trimmed down significantly as well

Also there will not bee thre odd subs, they already ordered fourth one and more will follow most likely

And everyone keeps forgetting that Ladas are fresh platforms with plenty of upgrade potential while Kilos are at the end of theirs, current basic design is 4 decades old

As for AIP it can be added to conventional Ladas later, doing it on Kilos would be major hassle and honestly not worth it

Two Ladas currently built seem to be on schedule so in comparison to Kilos they keep up in that department as well

If the subs are acquired in such minor numbers upgrade potential is meaningless.

so far the MOD said they want two more, however, I have yet to see anything written on paper and I have it from a good source on that stuff.

so until I see actual ink in a way I do not consider what the MOD says to be fact.

Lada is very much a project that may have had good intentions but became an utter mess.

The capabilities of the sub are hardly clear. Frankly if they are such wonder subs the MoD would not have decided to build 6 improved kilo's for the Pacific fleet. They would have gone with Lada's.

The fact they are going to so few shows there is a big problem and no I do not consider the numbers listed above fact. That's like me going to youtube and taking some armchair experts word for fact.

SeigSoloyvov wrote: If these stats where accurate...the Russians would not have stopped at three so forgive me if I do not buy it

T-44 want bad tank either  so why Soviet MoD did not produce thousands of it?
IMHO there's nothing wrong with Lada. It was just born in wrong time.  Years of under-funding took its tool.  Kilo/Improved Kilo are based on design in 70th.
Potential for modernization is almost exhausted. Lada just skipped a generation because between design and correct funding took too much time. But I'd consider it an important step in improving design experiences of Russian yards.

SeigSoloyvov wrote: If the subs are acquired in such minor numbers upgrade potential is meaningless.

true but they are rather a new link in evolution

SeigSoloyvov wrote:
Lada is very much a project that may have had good intentions but became an utter mess.

The capabilities of the sub are hardly clear. Frankly if they are such wonder subs the MoD would not have decided to build 6 improved kilo's for the Pacific fleet. They would have gone with Lada's.

Risk management? 636 is adequate and proven in production in series. As simple as that. So what if Lada is 1,5 times better if risk of restarting mass production and fixing design flaws might take a while?

SeigSoloyvov wrote: so unless you have the technical blueprints to the sub, I am only inclined to consider this just "theories and opinions".

Indeed your statements inclusive since you don't have blueprints either

Reflections on the fate of B-585


As is known, on 22.04.2010 a large (diesel-electric) submarine (SSB) B-585 "St. Petersburg", the head ship of Prospect 677, was transferred to the Navy in experimental operation, which is known very little. From 2010 to 2013. B-585 annually took part in the parades on the Neva on Navy Day, on October 17, 2013, completed the transition to the Northern Fleet, where in 2014 she also participated in the parade (ref. 1), in 2015-2017. holidays passed without it. The only significant event received coverage in the media was the successful firing of a cruise missile [3M54 Caliber] on a sea target, made in the Barents Sea on November 17, 2016 (ref. 2).

At the end of last year, one of the guests of my magazine, referring to a reliable source, said that the B-585 "has been going to the North for many years for the summer, and is returning to St. Petersburg for alterations for the winter." I must admit that this news surprised me a bit, because since 2014 (when I began to track events related to the ships of the main classes of the Russian Navy), I never came across photos of "St. Petersburg" in the North Sea or on the Baltic, made by NATO sailors or our shippitters , as well as reports of the arrival of B-585 to the Admiralty Shipyards, the Kronstadt Marine Plant, or to the Lomonosov 28 military plant (shipyard of the Navy).

No traces of the mysterious boat could be detected with the help of SCAP, the automated system of the services of the captain of the Big Port of St. Petersburg, where both civil ships and warships are scrupulously recorded. Search by name in the section "Ships in the Port" (at berths and berths) (reference 3) gives 22 ships of the submarine "St. Petersburg", the end of the last of which (№214631) is dated September 19, 2013, when B-585 departed from berth in Kronstadt and went to the sea (reference 4) - the date of departure from Kronstadt corresponds to the beginning of the interflot transition to the SF by reference 1. I have no reason not to trust my guest, but the information received from him about the regular IFP "St. Petersburg" requires confirmation. Annual long-distance transfers back and forth (2x2200 miles) were unlikely to benefit the material part of the submarine of the near-sea zone, besides, there are enough SRH in the North.

It makes sense to quote three quotes with very useful information from the interview of the general directors of the Admiralty Shipyards and the Central Design Bureau of the MT Rubin by A. Buzakov and I. Vilnita.

Quotation 1: "If you do not remember the conditions under which the submarine" St. Petersburg "was created, then it will not be clear why ... the protracted exploitation in which the ship is now in the pipeline was delayed. At the time of construction, there was practically no rhythmic financing and real money for carrying out experimental design work, forced decisions were made to test the first samples of OCD as part of the ship, and there were a lot of them, and as a result, the boat turned out to be a kind of test ship, This equipment "(A. Buzakov - Reference 5).

Quotation 2: "Some media reported that the submarine" St. Petersburg "could be upgraded.This so?" "Perhaps this is one of the versions of the future use of this boat." I can say that it will be carried out scheduled dock repairs, after that [ "SPb"] will continue the experimental operation, because there are a few parameters for which it has not yet been possible to obtain measurements. "And later the fleet will decide how to use the ship" (A. Buzakov, August 11, 2017 - the same link).

Quotation 3: "Based on the results of the pilot operation [of" St. Petersburg "], and also taking into account the fact that during this time there were new radio-electronic means and other systems," Rubin "created an improved project, according to which two ships of this class are currently built" (I. Vilnit - reference 6).

Complete the pilot operation program B-585 promised in 2014, and 2015, and 2016 gg. (ref. 8, ref. 9, ref. 11), after which the promises ceased, most likely judiciously judging that the next promise would risk permanently turning the epic from the first boat of the fourth generation into a bad performance. Meanwhile, last October it became known that the construction of those two ships of the improved project is proceeding at a rather brisk pace: sections of the first serial boat (Kronstadt) have already been docked in a single hull, pipelines and various life support systems have been installed, electrical equipment and lines have been installed shaft, the loading of drawers was carried out. On another order (Velikie Luki), the fore and aft sections of the hull are formed, hydraulic tests of both sections were made (ref. 12). "Kronstadt" is planned to be launched this year, to transfer the Navy in 2020, "Velikie Luki" - most likely, a year later (ref. 5).

Taking into account the above, we will try to predict the future fate of B-585. It seems that the key word here is "modernization." After the dock repair and the performance of the necessary measurements, their results will be taken into account in the construction of the first serial boat (and in fact, the head of the project, 677.1). According to the experience of "Gorshkov" and "Makarov", the state tests of "Kronstadt" will continue until the victorious end (until full compliance with the TTZ) and may last for, say, a year. In this case, the surrender of the Great Onions will automatically shift to the right, at which the same modifications will be carried out as at Kronstadt. Most likely, at the same time, Rubin will carry out the modernization project of SPb in order to bring its TTX to the level of 677.1, after which the RDD will be developed and work will start to bring the B-585 to mind (to AB or to CMP). As a result, somewhere in 2025 we will have (presumably in the SF) a group of three or five (ref. 13) of the same type of 4th generation PLL (with one minus due to the absence of VNEU).

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/183662.html

News or perhaps rumors regarding Lada class. From the National Interest


"Though some reports claim new propulsion tech is already well under development, a Russian officer in naval construction stated that a new AIP drive is only likely to come around in 2021–22.

Russian designers have also spoken about developing lithium-ion-battery-powered submarines as an alternate means of extending underwater endurance. However, currently only Japan and South Korea are at all close to implementing this technology on operational submarines.

Ultimately, construction finally did resume on the Lada-class boats, with the Kronstadt and Veliye Luki expected to launch in 2019 and 2021 respectively — without AIP propulsion. After an announcement that production of the series would end after these two boats in 2016, Adm. Vladimir Korolev announced in July 2017 that a fourth and fifth Lada boat would follow — possibly equipped with AIP-powered propulsion, if it were available."

Why not just scrap the hulks and begin all over.. maybe scrap the AIP as it seems russia is unable to develop its "diesel" variant. Better go lithium-ion

runaway wrote:News or perhaps rumors regarding Lada class. From the National Interest

Why not just scrap the hulks and begin all over.. maybe scrap the AIP as it seems russia is unable to develop its "diesel" variant. Better go  lithium-ion

Not sure if NI is best source to learn about Russian Fleet. They claimed that Kinzhal is not hypersonic :-))) As for AIP - this is clear example of under investment. Looks like diesel-electrical subs will be produced in 2020 (636.3) so why to hurry?

As for lithium batteries - they are ok but not sure if better not to use AIP. With  diesel makes AIP cheaper in maintenance and safer than hydrogen one.

Is it possible to add AIP on them later? The Swedes done it on 1 French & their sub:

In the mid-1980s Kockums installed Stirling engines and a liquid oxygen (LOX) system from AGA Cryo aboard the French 500 ton civilian research submarine Saga. The Saga has an operating depth of 600 meters and is fitted with a diving system for work at depths as deep as 450 meters.
Intense R&D and the experiences gained from the Saga project paved way for the installation of a Stirling engine in the Royal Swedish Navy submarine HMS Näcken in 1988. The submarine was placed in dry-dock and cut in two. A fully outfitted eight-meter AIP section was then inserted. The years of practical sea-trials that followed were extremely satisfactory and resulted in the installation of Stirling AIP systems in the new Swedish Gotland Class submarines.
https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-warships/technologies/the-stirling-engine/

They need more SSKs anyway so even w/o AIP they can patrol/deploy to coastal areas/closed seas with not much less mission capability being reduced. Later, some of them may be backfitted with AIP &/or sold "as is", like the original & improved Kilos were:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Operators

Tsavo Lion wrote:Is it possible to add AIP on them later? The Swedes done it on 1 French & their sub:

In the mid-1980s Kockums installed Stirling engines and a liquid oxygen (LOX) system from AGA Cryo aboard the French 500 ton civilian research submarine Saga. The Saga has an operating depth of 600 meters and is fitted with a diving system for work at depths as deep as 450 meters.
Intense R&D and the experiences gained from the Saga project paved way for the installation of a Stirling engine in the Royal Swedish Navy submarine HMS Näcken in 1988. The submarine was placed in dry-dock and cut in two. A fully outfitted eight-meter AIP section was then inserted. The years of practical sea-trials that followed were extremely satisfactory and resulted in the installation of Stirling AIP systems in the new Swedish Gotland Class submarines.
https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-warships/technologies/the-stirling-engine/

They need more SSKs anyway so even w/o AIP they can patrol/deploy to coastal areas/closed seas with not much less mission capability being reduced. Later, some of them may be backfitted with AIP &/or sold "as is", like the original & improved Kilos were:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Operators

You can always add additional capabilities via the hull cutting or splitting sub as they did however its expencive as Hell feat.