Project 677: Lada class submarine

GarryB wrote:

Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves... a working AIP that uses diesel fuel is revolutionary and vastly more useful than a standard system used elsewhere.... most ports on the planet already handle diesel fuel supplies to boats, while not very many at all are rigged up to provide hydrogen and oxygen to ships and subs at port.

A diesel AIP means fewer changes needed to subs and ports and the ability to operate in any port on the planet... (except airports and space ports of course) without modification or infrastructure upgrade.

Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?

Russia has nuclear subs

Which are better than AIP

Russia has nuclear subs

Which are better than AIP

For comprting against sweedish, german, french and now chinese and japanese subs on the export market they need a state of the art AIP system. That's the main goal.

GarryB wrote:I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves...

Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?

There has been some recent movement on actually progressing the AIP
https://www.russiadefence.net/t7852p50-russian-air-independent-propulsion-aip-submarine-technology#270103
But yeah there are some things about Russian military/spending decisions that are seemingly incomprehensible.


The problem with a nuclear battery is the types that are known produce really tiny amounts of energy using some rather dangerous & rare isotopes.
If they have really got a practical nuclear cruise missile engine though it could be the necessary breakthrough & might be able to be reconfigured for a closed cycle 'AIP' that doesn't fry the crew.

The problem with a nuclear battery is the types that are known produce really tiny amounts of energy using some rather dangerous & rare isotopes.
If they have really got a practical nuclear cruise missile engine though it could be the necessary breakthrough & might be able to be reconfigured for a closed cycle 'AIP' that doesn't fry the crew.

Well that is what I am thinking... in the 1990s they had nuclear power plants that were intended to power radar equipped satellites in a relatively low earth orbit... which meant they were not in stationary orbit so couldn't rely on solar panels for power so they developed these nuclear power cells they said would also be useful for planetary exploration. Something like 4-10 kilowatts, which I agree is not huge but it creates that level of power for about 13 years continuously which is pretty good... but the bonus is that it generates heat so in cold places like siberia or Mars or the Moon the cooling system can be used to heat a building or small complex as a by product of the power plant working, so the electricity is over and above that.

These things are relatively small so you could put several on a small sub and when you are not moving around it can be charging batteries and running co2 scrubbers etc etc and running the electronics... and it is certainly a direction that could create some rather useful things... imagine a small compact power source you could put into an airship or an aircraft to power it for years...

If the new engine is not some sort of ramjet engine then it could be useful for generating energy on a sub... the future of vehicle technology is electric, as electric motors become more powerful and more efficient vehicle designs are going to change from being centred around an internal combustion engine to all electric with options for electricity supply being plugged in like a battery. For large vehicles you have solar and of course compact gas turbine type energy generators for potential energy generation... note gas turbines in tanks are not very efficient because tanks are heavy and short distance acceleration and then stopping is not an efficient way to use a gas turbine. Gas turbines are better run at an efficient rpm and kept at that efficient speed to generate electricity which then runs electric motors to accelerate and drive the vehicle or charges batteries or capacitor banks for when large amounts of electricity are needed...

Russia has nuclear subs

Which are better than AIP

But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power... Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.

flamming_python wrote:

GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.

Russia have the nuclear core of the Poseidon, and the reactor of the Harmony network can be used as low power endurance increaser.

But generally the non nuclear air independent propulsion has many drawbacks, and in many parameters inferior to the diesel subs.

But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.

But that is the problem smaller and cheaper is already available in the form of conventional subs... the AIP is intended to give the sub endurance comparable to nukes.

For a submarine having continuous reliable electricity sources is all that matters... electric current separates the hydrogen from the oxygen in water so a continual supply of oxygen to breath and hydrogen to burn that is all you need... a diesel engine sized block of lithium ion batteries or better to replace the existing diesel engines... a tiny gas turbine that runs on hydrogen and a small 1MW nuclear battery as used with the Pereveset or whatever it is called...

BTW one of the first nuclear power systems they developed for space was TOPAZ and to quote Wiki:

The first TOPAZ reactor operated for 1,300 hours and then was shut down for detailed examination. It was capable of delivering 5 kW of power for 3–5 years from 12 kg (26 lb) of fuel. Reactor mass was ~ 320 kg (710 lb).

First tested in 1971...

Their current naval satellites of the Legenda family replacements should have something similar to power them...

They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

runaway wrote:They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

I don't think they are doing that due to any deficiencies on Lada-class

It was recently revealed that a lot of Soviet era Kilo subs are in very bad shape and not usable which means that they need even more replacements in short amount of time hence additional Kilo orders

My guess is that they will keep ordering Kilos and Ladas in parallel until production rate of Lada-class reaches satisfactory levels

At that point they will discontinue Kilos

PapaDragon wrote:

runaway wrote:They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

I don't think they are doing that due to any deficiencies on Lada-class

It was recently revealed that a lot of Soviet era Kilo subs are in very bad shape and not usable which means that they need even more replacements in short amount of time hence additional Kilo orders

My guess is that they will keep ordering Kilos and Ladas in parallel until production rate of Lada-class reaches satisfactory levels

At that point they will discontinue Kilos

I believe they will order some Ladas, but not as many as other projects. If they finish fixing their maturity problems they are better than kilos and allow also the use of a reduced crew, but not much better. In the meanwhile they realised that they can produce kilos at a very fast pace so if they want newly built diesel electric subs that are good enough in a short time they stick with them for the moment. The other issue for Lada is that when the last batch of kilos for the pacific fleet, and later baltic fleet as a replacement of the older generation kilos will be delivered there won't be a high need of newly built electric sub for a while...

By the way, most probably the last three kilos for the Baltic fleet will be produced by the admiralty shipyard, however the shipyard in Nizhny Novgorod Krasnoye Sormovo announced that they will be ready to get back at building also subs and in particular expressed interest for the last batch of Kilos...

Very true, if they have built so many new kilos in short time the Navy dont need any new SSKs for decades to come. Not in large numbers anyway, just the one of design to move evolution forward.

If those kilos are replaceing kilos that needed urgent replacement then going forward they will need new SSKs so it makes sense to keep with the Lada plan.

Very simply put the Lada offers the same or better fire power from a sub that is 500 tons lighter and with half the crew required to operate a Kilo.

More importantly the sensors and systems are better so in almost every role it is rather better... why would you not want Lada subs?

They make sense economically and militarily and logistically.

GarryB wrote:If those kilos are replaceing kilos that needed urgent replacement then going forward they will need new SSKs so it makes sense to keep with the Lada plan.

Very simply put the Lada offers the same or better fire power from a sub that is 500 tons lighter and with half the crew required to operate a Kilo.

More importantly the sensors and systems are better so in almost every role it is rather better... why would you not want Lada subs?

They make sense economically and militarily and logistically.

absolutely. The only issue is that if they replace most of the older kilos (project 877) with improved kilos (project 636.3) there will be less need for new subs for a while.

If i am not mistaken there are about a dozen older kilo (built around 1990) still in service in the russian navy, between the pacific and the northern fleet.

There are now 7 636.3 subs in service: 6 with the black sea
Fleet while he pacific fleet already received 1 of their ordered 6 improved kilos, and there will be also an additional order of 3 subs for the baltic fleet.

So, most probably after those they will start to order Lada class, but in slightly lower numbers  (e.g. 10 or 12).

The oldest improved kilo in the black sea fleet is only 6 years old,  and we can expect it will stay in service for another 15 years at least, unless during a mid life overhaul they decide to turn it in an export version and sell it in order to be able to buy a more modern sub  for the russian navy.

As i wrote before, my curiosity is to see if Krasnoye Sormovo shipyard will go back building subs as well.

As per SY press total 5 Lada class is under construction or signed for

http://admship.ru/press/news/ao-admiralteyskie-verfi-podpisalo-kontrakt-na-stroitelstvo-dvukh-podvodnykh-lodok-proekta-677-lada/

As part of the ARMY-2019 international military-technical forum in Moscow, a contract was signed between the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and Admiralty Shipyards JSC for the construction of two submarines of Project 677 Lada.

The lead boat of the St. Petersburg series was transferred to the Navy in April 2010 and is currently in trial operation in the Northern Fleet. The submarine Kronstadt, the second in a series of project 677 Lada, was laid down in July 2005 and launched in September 2018. Today, the ship is completing the adjustment of systems and equipment, mooring tests have begun. The third order of the Velikiye Luki series, pledged in March 2015, is at the stage of block formation, loading and installation of large-sized equipment in regular places has begun.

For each Kilo they replace with a Lada class sub they will have almost half a crew spare, so making more Ladas makes sense in terms of bang for buck because extra subs improves performance too.

Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

Crouching hunter: why the Lada submarines are considered the best in the world

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201809271258-292n.htm


Very good update by Vladimir Karnozov on Lada program , Interesting Lada tracked a Virginia Class SSN for many hours as the US submarine was trailing Russian Naval battle group in an exercise.

Unknown to US submarine Lada class was keeping a tail on Russian Surface Ship Exercise and tracked Virginia class too.

Submarine "St. Petersburg" (Lada-class lead ship) of the Northern Fleet is heading for modernization in Kronstadt

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8180225

Austin wrote:Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

This article is dated 2018

Big_Gazza wrote:

Austin wrote:Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

This article is dated 2018

The information is upto date on Lada Class and details which is perhaps the best available in opensource.

Lada is quite a sucessful program compared to what your average Western publication would lead you believe

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/Issue/vayu-issue-Vayu-Issue-VI-Nov-Dec-2016.pdf

Another nugget from same author while writing in an Indian Journal this is some where in late 2016 when Lada was under going trials and initial deployment.

Project 677

“Even though the Kilo-class has proved
its merits, this design no longer represents
our current vision of what a truly modern
non-nuclear submarine should look like.
Scientific and technical progress has come
a long way since Project 877’s entry into
service, stimulating further development
of warships and other means of naval
warfare.” Some time ago, Rubin’s team
was challenged again, this time to develop a
conventional boat of the fourth generation.
It should differ from the previous generation
in having a smaller displacement and yet
higher combat efficiency. Such a ship has
been developed, and is referred to as the
Project 677 Lada.

The lead ship of the class, designated
Sankt Peterburg, was commissioned in 2010.
It passed testing and is now completing
operational trials with the Russian navy.
Kormilitsin spoke about the current state
of these trials:
“After testing and initial operations in
the Baltic, she made a successful ferry to the
Arctic, and now operates with the Northern
Fleet. A series of tests performed in Arctic
waters last year proved our claim that the
newer submarine’s noise level is several
times less than that of previous generation
boats. No one can detect her presence close
by, while she can sense previous generation
boats with ease. The Lada has a much more
powerful sonar system than the Kilo-class.
This sonar has no equal; so far no other
country managed to produce anything
that would compete with our sonar. This
new sonar can sense diesel-electric boats
of previous generation at a distance of
several kilometres, and nuclear-powered
boats, including those of foreign make, at a
distance of several dozen kilometres.”

“The lead ship of the Project 677
Lada is about to complete operational
trials with the Russian Navy. Sadly –
and this happens quite often during
development of advanced machinery – new
technology does not receive proper and
timely recognition. In the meantime, our
new ship has been performing well and
proving her merits every time she goes to
sea. This design deserves mass production,
so as to equip the Russian Navy, and the
navies of our allies and friendly countries.
My opinion is this: if a navy needs a potent
hunter-killer, the Lada is the best candidate
to fill such a role.”

Stereotypes at play... westerners are conditioned to believe advertising slogans and image is everything, so when you call a submarine a Lada they immediately associate it with the type of Car because submarines and cars are totally the same thing.

The lada car had a reputation for being simple and cheap... not amazingly reliable but from that era nothing was really reliable... even the expensive stylish stuff from Italy like Lambo and Ferrari...

Westerners who don't know any better will assume a Lada sub is like a Lada car, which is absurd... the Lada sub is a huge improvement over a Kilo class which is already a rather good class of submarine... smaller and lighter with the same fire power or better fire power with vertical launch tubes added, and a 50% reduction in crew makes it an excellent submarine.

There are no VLS added to Lada yet but option provided to its export variant Amur 1650

Interesting US now concedes East coast of US and Atlantic will be contested waters

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32087/admiral-warns-americas-east-coast-is-no-longer-a-safe-haven-thanks-to-russian-subs

franco wrote:The Russian Navy will receive two submarines of the Lada project in 2022

Two serial diesel-electric submarines of the fourth generation of Project 677 Lada - Kronstadt and Velikie Luki - will receive the Russian Navy in 2022, said Alexander Buzakov,

The submarines are the second and third in the project 677. The first in the project was the submarine "St. Petersburg" - it was transferred to the fleet for trial operation in 2010.

“The second, Kronstadt, is already afloat, the third, Velikiye Luki, will be launched in 2022. Kronstadt was delayed somewhat due to problems with contractors. But we plan to transfer both boats to the fleet in 2022, "Buzakov told RIA Novosti .

In September last year, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Alexei Rakhmanov, announced the lag in the construction of two diesel-electric submarines of the fourth generation of Project 677 Lada due to problems with one of the equipment suppliers.

In this connection, it was decided to build for the Pacific Fleet six time-tested submarines of the 636 Varshavyanka project instead of the Lada submarines.

The first submarine of the Lada project, Saint Petersburg, was laid down in 1997 and launched in 2004. The submarine completed tests and entered trial operation in 2010.

Project 677 submarines (code Lada) are a series of Russian diesel-electric submarines developed at the Rubin Central Design Bureau.

The series is a development of project 877 "Halibut". Submarines are intended to destroy enemy submarines, surface ships and vessels, to protect naval bases, sea coast and sea communications, as well as to conduct reconnaissance.

Submarines with a displacement of 1.8 thousand tons are distinguished by a low noise level, can reach speeds of up to 21 knots and dive to a depth of 350 m.

There are plans to lay down two Ladas in 2022, but i very much doubt it. I still think the Ladas are a fiasco as the project has been active since 2004 and has been prone to failure after failure and redesigns.
I think they should concentrate on the Kalina project, and in the meantime order 636.3 subs.

The fact that they still doesnt have a working AIP in either the Kilos or Ladas is mindboggling, to say the least. Sweden had their first AIP operating sub in 1988. I write it again, 1988.

The Swedish shipbuilder Kockums constructed three Gotland-class submarines for the Swedish Navy that are fitted with an auxiliary Stirling engine that burns liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to drive 75 kW electrical generators for either propulsion or charging batteries. The endurance of the 1,500-tonne boats is around 14 days at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h).

The new Swedish Blekinge-class submarine has the Stirling AIP system as its main energy source. The submerged endurance will be more than 18 days at 5 knots using AIP.

Realize that both the Lada and Kilo is totally outclassed in endurance term, which makes them alot easier to detect and destroy.

Hopefully the russian AIP can be retrofitted to both Kilos and Ladas, when its finaly ready, when that may be is an open question.

AIP general info
The main reason behind adopting AIP systems is to increase a submarine's stealth by eliminating noisy snorkelling and remaining in contact with the atmosphere. The benefits of added stealth outweigh the increased cost of the submarine over its life cycle, stringent requirements for the infrastructure and crew training.

From both a theoretical and practical point of view, it is clear that none of today's AIP plant types are ideal in all respect; each has its merits and drawbacks. Besides, none of the navies have similar conditions. Each navy performs its tasks, operates in different geographical zones, and has varied level of crew training and conditions at naval bases.

Irrespective of all theoretical diversity of possible AIP types, the experience of recent years has shown that only two types of AIP systems are in demand in the market - Stirling AIP system and fuel cell AIP system. As for the closed cycle steam turbine MESMA, it has shown its practicality but has remained a niche product. Other exotic types of AIP plants have also remained on paper or in laboratories.