Project 677: Lada class submarine

The Lada class can't be a one off design... they layed down three to start with...

On the previous page of this thread at the bottom of the page (page 18) post number 450 there is an article that mentions:

Kronstadt to fourth generation of the Russian non-nuclear boats. The Pr. 677 and its export derivative Amur 1650 are meant to supersede the Kilo-class. Lada is more compact: with similar weapons composition (six torpedo tubes with weapons comprising 18 torpedoes and missiles), standard displacement is reduced from 2350 (for Pr. 636) to 1765 tons. Because of increased automation, crew numbers are reduced from 52 to 35 personnel. The Lada is equipped with sonar with quasi-conformal large-area antennae and towed array sonar that considerably surpasses series-produced sonars on the earlier Pr. 636 submarines.

So smaller and lighter with almost half the crew, the same armament but of course able to take all the newest weapons, and with new generation sensors and equipment...

It was intended to do what SSNs do and is fitted with sonar and equipment comparable to the latest SSNs... which makes it rather better than previous SSKs.

With new batteries and AIP eventually the only difference will be top speed for the purposes of operational performance.

I suspect they will leave AIP until their 5th gen subs with the Kalinas and probably wont lay any down for another 5 years or so... in the mean time I suspect they will probably build 6-8 Lada class subs in total and probably try to get India to buy some too and perhaps China or Indonesia...

Eventually they will likely retrofit the AIPs to their older SSKs during serious overhauls most likely.

GarryB wrote:The Lada class can't be a one off design... they layed down three to start with..


So smaller and lighter with almost half the crew, the same armament but of course able to take all the newest weapons, and with new generation sensors and equipment...

It was intended to do what SSNs do and is fitted with sonar and equipment comparable to the latest SSNs... which makes it rather better than previous SSKs.

With new batteries and AIP eventually the only difference will be top speed for the purposes of operational performance.

I suspect they will leave AIP until their 5th gen subs with the Kalinas and probably wont lay any down for another 5 years or so... in the mean time I suspect they will probably build 6-8 Lada class subs in total and probably try to get India to buy some too and perhaps China or Indonesia...

Eventually they will likely retrofit the AIPs to their older SSKs during serious overhauls most likely.

Ok two off then as i dont count the first.
But why havent SSN or SSGN been striking Syria? Is the Med considered a SSK sea? From what i know they have no SSN in BSF so its a long way from Northen or Pacific fleet to get there.

About Ladas, you cant really say its a better SSK then the Kilo just on techs specs, it has to prove it also and there has been som short classes of subs that were failures. They were speaking of ordering another batch of 4 Ladas, but i dont think so really.
Of course its a quick work to add a section of AIP hull on a SSK, sweden did it with the Näcken sub in 1988...

As for SSN´s vs SSK´s, well not only top speed but range and endurance also. Trouble with SSK´s even if they are nearly as good as SSN´s is top speed and range, they can never accompany large task forces. So in every larger task force even in the med, they have to assigne some SSN to that role.

runaway wrote:

GarryB wrote:The Lada class can't be a one off design... they layed down three to start with..


So smaller and lighter with almost half the crew, the same armament but of course able to take all the newest weapons, and with new generation sensors and equipment...

It was intended to do what SSNs do and is fitted with sonar and equipment comparable to the latest SSNs... which makes it rather better than previous SSKs.

With new batteries and AIP eventually the only difference will be top speed for the purposes of operational performance.

I suspect they will leave AIP until their 5th gen subs with the Kalinas and probably wont lay any down for another 5 years or so... in the mean time I suspect they will probably build 6-8 Lada class subs in total and probably try to get India to buy some too and perhaps China or Indonesia...

Eventually they will likely retrofit the AIPs to their older SSKs during serious overhauls most likely.

Ok two off then as i dont count the first.
But why havent SSN or SSGN been striking Syria? Is the Med considered a SSK sea? From what i know they have no SSN in BSF so its a long way from Northen or Pacific fleet to get there.

About Ladas, you cant really say its a better SSK then the Kilo just on techs specs, it has to prove it also and there has been som short classes of subs that were failures. They were speaking of ordering another batch of 4 Ladas, but i dont think so really.
Of course its a quick work to add a section of AIP hull on a SSK, sweden did it with the Näcken sub in 1988...

As for SSN´s vs SSK´s, well not only top speed but range and endurance also. Trouble with SSK´s even if they are nearly as good as SSN´s is top speed and range, they can never accompany large task forces. So in every larger task force even in the med, they have to assigne some SSN to that role.

Mediterranean is a closed sea, just as it should be for use of SSKs. When SSK is quiet it is really quiet indeed. SSN with her pumps and turbines can never be as quiet as SSK. Baltic fleet has no SSNs as any SSN there would be as a whale in a pool. Just too big, too noisy. Ladas have still to prove their merits over pr.877/636. i think it will be a temporary class to bridge over to more capable Kalina.

Ok two off then as i dont count the first.

They are keeping all three... whether you count them or not...

But why havent SSN or SSGN been striking Syria? Is the Med considered a SSK sea? From what i know they have no SSN in BSF so its a long way from Northen or Pacific fleet to get there.

You answered your own question... why take an SSN or SSGN away from a strategic mission against the US and NATO when a corvette in the Caspian Sea can launch Calibrs?

Having SSKs frees bigger heavier more capable subs for jobs that require more capabilities.

The point is that the Lada class SSKs are much closer to SSN performance than previous SSKs so it becomes more useful...

About Ladas, you cant really say its a better SSK then the Kilo just on techs specs, it has to prove it also and there has been som short classes of subs that were failures.

But how do you define a failure... I mean during WWII the Soviet Air Force had Polikarpov I-16s and then got British Hurricane fighters... and then got Yak-3 fighters... the fact was they didn't know how bad the I-16s were until they used them against early model Bf-109s... the I-16 was state of the art in the 1930s when they first entered service but their performance was eclipsed by the time they got serious use... the Hurricane was better, but still not superior to the BF-109 models they were coming up against at the time they got them... it was only when they got Yak-3s when they actually had an aircraft that was superior to the late model Bf-109s and FW-190s they were coming up against... claiming the I-16s were bad is silly... making the number of MiG-3s or Yak-1s that they had of I-16s at the start of the war would have bankrupted the Soviet state and most were destroyed on the ground anyway, so the pilots survived to fight later in the war in better aircraft...

I can say the Lada was a better SSK because it was designed to be so... just like the MiG-29 was a better interceptor fighter than the MiG-21 it replaced in service and the Su-27 was better than the MiG-23 it replaced...

They were speaking of ordering another batch of 4 Ladas, but i dont think so really.
Of course its a quick work to add a section of AIP hull on a SSK, sweden did it with the Näcken sub in 1988...

AIP propulsion systems are generally modular and are designed to be able to be added on to existing subs as well as new ones... the point is that they have to actually be working first.

If the Ladas were no better than Kilos why even bother talking about making any more, it would make more sense to crank out a few extra Kilos they have already had in mass production before and concentrate on a real replacement without wasting time with something that is no better than what they already have.

As for SSN´s vs SSK´s, well not only top speed but range and endurance also. Trouble with SSK´s even if they are nearly as good as SSN´s is top speed and range, they can never accompany large task forces. So in every larger task force even in the med, they have to assigne some SSN to that role.

The days of long range SSKs is over... such roles have been replaced by SSNs so it is not really an issue any more.

Mediterranean is a closed sea, just as it should be for use of SSKs. When SSK is quiet it is really quiet indeed. SSN with her pumps and turbines can never be as quiet as SSK. Baltic fleet has no SSNs as any SSN there would be as a whale in a pool.

There is little value strategically for Russia to have subs in the Med or the Baltic except a few cruise missiles launched from behind so to speak... would be as vulnerable to NATO as a US carrier group in the black sea would be vulnerable to Russian forces.

i think it will be a temporary class to bridge over to more capable Kalina.

Funny you have confidence in Kalina being superior but not Lada?

You do know that some years ago the Kalina in this equation was Lada?

If they have fucked up the Lada, why do you place such high hopes they will do any better with Kalina?

Do you expect Kalina to be even smaller and lighter and with a crew of 12?

GarryB wrote:

Ok two off then as i dont count the first.

They are keeping all three... whether you count them or not...

But why havent SSN or SSGN been striking Syria? Is the Med considered a SSK sea? From what i know they have no SSN in BSF so its a long way from Northen or Pacific fleet to get there.

You answered your own question... why take an SSN or SSGN away from a strategic mission against the US and NATO when a corvette in the Caspian Sea can launch Calibrs?

Having SSKs frees bigger heavier more capable subs for jobs that require more capabilities.

The point is that the Lada class SSKs are much closer to SSN performance than previous SSKs so it becomes more useful...

About Ladas, you cant really say its a better SSK then the Kilo just on techs specs, it has to prove it also and there has been som short classes of subs that were failures.

But how do you define a failure... I mean during WWII the Soviet Air Force had Polikarpov I-16s and then got British Hurricane fighters... and then got Yak-3 fighters... the fact was they didn't know how bad the I-16s were until they used them against early model Bf-109s... the I-16 was state of the art in the 1930s when they first entered service but their performance was eclipsed by the time they got serious use... the Hurricane was better, but still not superior to the BF-109 models they were coming up against at the time they got them... it was only when they got Yak-3s when they actually had an aircraft that was superior to the late model Bf-109s and FW-190s they were coming up against... claiming the I-16s were bad is silly... making the number of MiG-3s or Yak-1s that they had of I-16s at the start of the war would have bankrupted the Soviet state and most were destroyed on the ground anyway, so the pilots survived to fight later in the war in better aircraft...

I can say the Lada was a better SSK because it was designed to be so... just like the MiG-29 was a better interceptor fighter than the MiG-21 it replaced in service and the Su-27 was better than the MiG-23 it replaced...

They were speaking of ordering another batch of 4 Ladas, but i dont think so really.
Of course its a quick work to add a section of AIP hull on a SSK, sweden did it with the Näcken sub in 1988...

AIP propulsion systems are generally modular and are designed to be able to be added on to existing subs as well as new ones... the point is that they have to actually be working first.

If the Ladas were no better than Kilos why even bother talking about making any more, it would make more sense to crank out a few extra Kilos they have already had in mass production before and concentrate on a real replacement without wasting time with something that is no better than what they already have.

As for SSN´s vs SSK´s, well not only top speed but range and endurance also. Trouble with SSK´s even if they are nearly as good as SSN´s is top speed and range, they can never accompany large task forces. So in every larger task force even in the med, they have to assigne some SSN to that role.

The days of long range SSKs is over... such roles have been replaced by SSNs so it is not really an issue any more.

Mediterranean is a closed sea, just as it should be for use of SSKs. When SSK is quiet it is really quiet indeed. SSN with her pumps and turbines can never be as quiet as SSK. Baltic fleet has no SSNs as any SSN there would be as a whale in a pool.

There is little value strategically for Russia to have subs in the Med or the Baltic except a few cruise missiles launched from behind so to speak... would be as vulnerable to NATO as a US carrier group in the black sea would be vulnerable to Russian forces.

i think it will be a temporary class to bridge over to more capable Kalina.

Funny you have confidence in Kalina being superior but not Lada?

You do know that some years ago the Kalina in this equation was Lada?

If they have fucked up the Lada, why do you place such high hopes they will do any better with Kalina?

Do you expect Kalina to be even smaller and lighter and with a crew of 12?

The Russians are great experts in submarine business. If before 1917 and between the wars they have built some submarines which were considered complete failure, from 1945 on, their submarines were often bigger, better armed, with greater autonomy and diving depth, and faster than those of their counterparts. They were almost always up to specifications. If there are substantial problems with Ladas, and there are problems with main EM and with new sonars, they reversed to the excellent 636.3 advanced Kilos. They have time to develop Kalina as a better boat, and they are perfectly capable of doing that.

Its probably the way they are going, revert to order new 636.3 instead of Ladas. In the meantime work out the kinks with AIP and new sonar so the Kalina will be a better boat and working free of all the problems that have plagued Ladas.

As of now they have 6 new kilos for BSF, soon 6 for PF and soon 2 Ladas for BF, they have covered the critical parts of their need and its no rusch for Kalinas.
When they have working AIP it will certainly be incorporated hull sections into the 636.3´s, to give them capabilities which are second to none.

The AIP isn't that critical for them as those SSKs typically operate under the cover of land based aviation, the same as their SSGs that had to surface to launch their CMs. They probably would have sent SSNs/SSGNs to the Med. Sea, as they done in the Cold War & later, hadn't the 2 Kilos that hit the Syrian rebels been in transit to the BSF anyway.
The subs with AIP would sell better, & suspect it's their primary motivation to develop it.

They were almost always up to specifications. If there are substantial problems with Ladas, and there are problems with main EM and with new sonars, they reversed to the excellent 636.3 advanced Kilos. They have time to develop Kalina as a better boat, and they are perfectly capable of doing that.

Part of the design process involves estimates and projections... the first model Su-27 was supposed to be superior to the F-15 aerodynamically but it wasn't and needed a complete design update to change its performance from inferior to superior, but once they improved the design they didn't cancel it and then design a brand new from scratch design to replace it because the in service aircraft (MiG-23) needed replacing.

They had Kilo class subs and they are good boats, but they wanted something that was a generation better and they designed the lada class sub to replace it... they laid down three hulls but after testing the first completed vessel it didn't have the performance they were hoping for. It was superior to the Kilo class but not enough to justify putting that particular design into serial production so they stopped the two other Lada hulls and they spent some time changing and modifying the first sub to get it up to expectations... they don't have a US equivalent to say they want it better than that but obviously they had some level of expectation which presumably they achieved because those upgrades and modifications were applied to the two remaining Lada class subs and the first model and they are planning to make a few more... I have heard numbers from 4 to 6 which suggests to me that they have something significantly better than a Kilo because the new Ladas wont be cheap or as quick and upgrading Kilos with the technology used in the Ladas to improve their performance.

I mean on the face of it having a current force of lets say 12 Kilos and improved Kilos... with crews of 52 per boat with a total of 624 crew, now replacing them one for one with Lada subs that are smaller and lighter but have the same fire power and presumably better sensors and propulsion and 35 personnel per sub meaning you have 204 extra crew available but you can cover the same or greater areas doing the same job or perhaps better.

Some of those Kilos are getting old so replacement is becoming necessary anyway, but a ship with better performance that is smaller and lighter and with 30% less crew required to run it... what is not to like?

It is not like they only have SSKs so the lack of being able to operate submerged for a month at a time is no big deal except for potential export partners who don't have SSNs and SSGNs and SSBNs that can already do that.

Its probably the way they are going, revert to order new 636.3 instead of Ladas.

But they haven't. They are not ordering new Kilos for their Navy they are ordering new Ladas, while funding further development of the Kalinas.

In the meantime work out the kinks with AIP and new sonar so the Kalina will be a better boat and working free of all the problems that have plagued Ladas.

Hardly plagued. Kilos and improved Kilos are selling so there is no gap and no urgency...

The subs with AIP would sell better, & suspect it's their primary motivation to develop it.

AIP would be more useful for a smaller nation with these subs as their only subs... the combination of cruise missile capacity and AIP would make them rather potent systems.

Diesel AIP is taking longer, but it is worth it because all the worlds ports can handle diesel storage and handling... not very many of them are able to handle Hydrogen and oxygen storage and handling... They also said the energy they were generating from the prototypes was about three times better than hydrogen fuel cell technology from other makers... so there is that as well.

Contract for two Lada submarines

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20196271757-mIMw0.html

Like I said, Kilo is winding down and Lada revving up

You said 'Kilo discontinued', they're completing current orders that were made to give room for Lada (or Kalina) to be ready.

Lada is ready now with them giving up on AIP for the present.

hoom wrote:

Lada is ready now with them giving up on AIP for the present.

yeah, for Ladas. it looks like Makhit has just started working on new AIP sub.

The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.

https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/27264.html


.

June 27, 2019 St. Petersburg Maritime Engineering Bureau "Malachite" (SPMBM "Malachite"), OJSC See on map
The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.
St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau (SPMBM) "Malachite" is developing, on its own initiative, the project of a new small submarine of coastal action. A feature of the project that received the P-750B cipher is the use of an air-independent power installation (VNEU) of a fundamentally new type.

About this correspondent Sudostroenie.info told in the demo center of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (which includes the Malachite SPMBM) during the forum "Army-2019".

As follows from the booklet SPMBM "Malachite", the length of the ship will be about 65.5 m, width - about 7 m. The submarine will have a normal displacement of about 1,450 cubic meters. m and the maximum depth of immersion 300 m. The total speed of the underwater stroke - 18 knots.

The continuous submarine cruising range, taking into account the VNEU, is about 1,200 miles, the total cruising range is up to 4,300 miles.

The power plant of the ship includes two gas-turbine engines of a closed cycle with a capacity of 2x400 kW, as well as a rowing electric motor with a capacity of 2500 kW.

The armament of the ship may include torpedoes, rockets, as well as 533 mm mines.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

hoom wrote:

Lada is ready now with them giving up on AIP for the present.

yeah, for Ladas. it looks like  Makhit has just started working on new AIP sub.

The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.

https://sudostroenie.info/novosti/27264.html


.

June 27, 2019 St. Petersburg Maritime Engineering Bureau "Malachite" (SPMBM "Malachite"), OJSC See on map
The details of the project of a new small submarine with VNEU became known.
St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau (SPMBM) "Malachite" is developing, on its own initiative, the project of a new small submarine of coastal action. A feature of the project that received the P-750B cipher is the use of an air-independent power installation (VNEU) of a fundamentally new type.

About this correspondent Sudostroenie.info told in the demo center of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (which includes the Malachite SPMBM) during the forum "Army-2019".

As follows from the booklet SPMBM "Malachite", the length of the ship will be about 65.5 m, width - about 7 m. The submarine will have a normal displacement of about 1,450 cubic meters. m and the maximum depth of immersion 300 m. The total speed of the underwater stroke - 18 knots.

The continuous submarine cruising range, taking into account the VNEU, is about 1,200 miles, the total cruising range is up to 4,300 miles.

The power plant of the ship includes two gas-turbine engines of a closed cycle with a capacity of 2x400 kW, as well as a rowing electric motor with a capacity of 2500 kW.

The armament of the ship may include torpedoes, rockets, as well as 533 mm mines.

Closed cycle gas turbine... High test peroxide again?

Different organisations.

https://tass.com/defense/1067683

Russia offers to India joint production of Amur submarine with AIP.

Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

Two new submarines "Lada" lay for the Russian Navy in 2021

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=512438&lang=RU

dino00 wrote:Two new submarines "Lada" lay for the Russian Navy in 2021

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=512438&lang=RU

TASS says 2022

Two submarines of the project "Lada" will lay no earlier than 2022

Submarines surrender in 2025 and 2027, the head of the Admiralty Shipyards, Alexander Buzakov, said

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6650513

dino00 wrote:

dino00 wrote:Two new submarines "Lada" lay for the Russian Navy in 2021

https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=512438&lang=RU

TASS says 2022

Two submarines of the project "Lada" will lay no earlier than 2022

Submarines surrender in 2025 and 2027, the head of the Admiralty Shipyards, Alexander Buzakov, said

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6650513

You obviously mean that subs will be LAID DOWN not earlier than 2021, and that their HANDOVER to VMFRF will be no later than 2025-2027! Laying down corresponds to ЗАКЛАДКА, ЗАЛОЖЕН in russian. СДАЧА готового корабля, начало службы после всех испытаний начинается ПОДНЯТИЕМ ФЛАГА, после чего корабль считается полностью принятым и полностью БОЕСПОСОБНЫМ. СДАЧА corresponds to HANDOVER, or IN SERVICE.

Looks like Kronshtadt is getting close to starting sea trials

Is gonna be in the line for Navy Day


Man that looks like it must be really small inside

Stats page I think from IMDS

Kronshtadt in drydock

Russian Navy RFS B-586 Kronshtadt, a Lada Class submarine of project 677 under construction on the Admiralty Shipyard in StPetersburg, Russia on 27th November 2019.

Photo from World Military Industry

Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves... a working AIP that uses diesel fuel is revolutionary and vastly more useful than a standard system used elsewhere.... most ports on the planet already handle diesel fuel supplies to boats, while not very many at all are rigged up to provide hydrogen and oxygen to ships and subs at port.

A diesel AIP means fewer changes needed to subs and ports and the ability to operate in any port on the planet... (except airports and space ports of course) without modification or infrastructure upgrade.

Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?