The T-80s future in the Russian Army

Used warfare.be some time ago that seemed to have at least to some part uptodate information on pool of weaponary of russian military, but today it is blocked you have to have a subscription to have access to specific information.

franco wrote:

cracker wrote:hmm ok whatever that means...

You don't like my English

No i'm just not convinced by your numbers, i don't doubt you have read that somewhere but it seems dubious.

___

Ok so 26 units using T-80 before T-72BA/B3 modernisation, it's probably safe to say that T-80 was the main tank of Russian army from 1992 to ~2011 or even 2013 then, right?

Maybe also in the late 1990s there were units equiped with T-64BV? When was the tank definitely retired? From active units i mean, i know its status is not very clear even today about basic training on T-64 or even more advanced training. Any estimate on how many T-64 Russia can put into motion if ever needed? Seeing they had to send T-72B3 to donbass doesn't mean they have no more T-64, imho they sent those modern tanks AND the crew with it, why would russian soldiers trained on T-72B3 be instead downgraded to work on old T-64s? I know it's no use to use T-64 for the russian army currently, but i only speak in terms of strategic reserves of materiel.

So if we can assume all T-80UD disappeared, that leaves russian army with between 200 to 600 T-80U/UK (estimate of production to which you must remove exports to korea and cyprus and maybe another nation?), more than 3500 T-80B (of which at least 3000 are probably T-80BV), this number take into account the sales to yemen and the fact some hundreds were in ukraine and belarus and not returned to russia... And god knows how many T-80 freaks like T-80BA, T-80UE-1... probably less than 50 total. Of course only a few of this total is in service, but if Russia has any sense they should definitely make a full division/brigade whatever it is called now, with those T-80U, i think it's the case with the famous 4th guards tank division, which AFAIK still use them.

T-80BV indeed has almost no use if the T-72 is used instead, especially if it's a T-72B3, which is far more combat effective than the T-80BV.

All in all you can't blame Russia for using cheaper T-72s, but it's sad to see the T-80 falling into nothingness. After all T-64 was the revolution and T-72/80 are merely its evolution, and stop gaps... It's only now with the T-14 than a new era for russian armor is coming in.

I for one would love to be given all the tools and credits to create a cheap but effective modernisation package for the T-80BV (with strictly russian on-the-shelf products), that would rival and surpass T-72B3. Not sure what i would do with the engine, which is the main "problem" advanced by russians today (maintenance time and fuel)... Because removing the GTD-1000TF of the T-80BV is like removing its soul...

Maybe just say "screw it" and keep the turbine until all spares are depleted for the maintenance of those "T-80B3", after all the spare reserve should be able to maintain maybe 500 of those tanks until 2025 when enough T-14, T-90AM or something will be available in number. So the engine problem is solved, now you can focus on firepower and electronic:

-screw the old 2A46 and put the 2A46M-4 (M-5 for T-80, same specs), it should be done pretty easy and cost a new gun tube, not a big problem, and a state contract for ~500 of these tubes should be great for the factory that makes them (is it in Perm?)
-not sure if the autoloader is worth improving, not sure if the model of T-80U can be installed and if it's better at all, so, this point remains in the dark... One thing for sure, the T-80 will not accept long modern APFSDS like for T-90A/T-72B3. (svinets 1/2)
-hull, suspension, transmission, all that remain the same
-base armor of turret and hull remain the same (we must keep it cheap, not open the metal to change the composite inside)...
-ERA is changed. Basically, Kontakt-5 or even Relikt if it's possible. Same arrangement as on T-80U or T-72BM if possible, shouldn't be too hard.
-Turret loses the useless missile guidance box, just weld it close... The FCS/gunner sight i think should be done differently than T-72B3: instead of puting modern kit in the place of the night sight (and keeping redundant old main gunner sight), just remove completely the useless night sight and instal the modern kit in the place of 1A33 FCS. Gunner will appreciate the space, maybe space gained by removing missile guidance on the commander side and night sight on gunner sight can be used to store modern radio equipement in a more ergonomic way, or put something else, some screen or whatever... some APU maybe, or some small and efficient heater for the crew.
-not sure how the eject process work on the T-80 autoloader, but if it's not a problem: cut open the rear of the turret and modify it a bit to elongate it slightly (10cm) and close it back with a straight armor plate. Then, weld onto that a rudimentary ammo bustle (like on T-90MS, but simpler/cheaper) to store the dreadful supplementary ammo... This will leave the crew compartment only with the 28 rounds of the loader, still terrible, but much better.
-some gadgets here and there, usual stuff that i don't know much about that is used in tank modernisation... and we're done, a good "T-80B3"

I know it will never exist, but let me dream


Ok by the way, what do you think of the T-84BM "oplot M" yeah you know that ukrainian tank... I think it was an ambitious project but the final result is hampered by terrible ukrainian manufacture quality and second class subsystems... The idea behind the tank and the larger base chassis is however a much better idea than what became the T-90A. The true competitor of T-84BM is rather the T-90AM, but there is no contest here, T-90AM wins hands down. I only wish i could see one day a T-80U modernised to the point of T-90MS.


And nobody answered yet, please, how are the cases stubs ejected from T-80 and T-64?

From warfare.be about the T-80:

- In active service approximately 188
- In reserve (storage) a number under 4500

- In December of 2013 all the T-80 were withdrawn from active service (citing MoD as source)
- Only 2 units are cited as place where the T-80 is in service:
--- 12 Guard Tank Regiment. Naro Fominsk. Formed in 2013.
--- 13 Guard Tank Regiment. Naro Fominsk. Formed in 2013.
- The T-80 UM1 and T-80 UM2 are cited in the archive part (it means totally out of active service or prototype)

The question would be to confirm if the 12 and 13 regiments have still the T-80 or if this info is previous to the update were is said that all the T-80 were withdrawn from service. I would not be surprised if today the T-80 has been retired from both regiments and only engineering vehicle versions of the T-80 are still in active service.

In overall terms the information seems right to me despite some detail not totally clear.

cracker wrote:Maybe also in the late 1990s there were units equiped with T-64BV? When was the tank definitely retired? From active units i mean, i know its status is not very clear even today about basic training on T-64 or even more advanced training. Any estimate on how many T-64 Russia can put into motion if ever needed? Seeing they had to send T-72B3 to donbass doesn't mean they have no more T-64, imho they sent those modern tanks AND the crew with it, why would russian soldiers trained on T-72B3 be instead downgraded to work on old T-64s? I know it's no use to use T-64 for the russian army currently, but i only speak in terms of strategic reserves of materiel.

AFAIK the T-64s are not in active service anymore. They definitely still do have at least some of them in reserve (others have been utilized). Perhaps in training units too, I dunno.

I hope that all plans for scrapping/utilizing, or converting even the oldest T-54 tanks - have been put on hold by now.
We're gonna need all the tanks we can get, to equip friendly forces and militias in the Ukraine, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Syria, Iraq and possibly in the near future other theatres and fronts too.

flamming_python wrote:

cracker wrote:Maybe also in the late 1990s there were units equiped with T-64BV? When was the tank definitely retired? From active units i mean, i know its status is not very clear even today about basic training on T-64 or even more advanced training. Any estimate on how many T-64 Russia can put into motion if ever needed? Seeing they had to send T-72B3 to donbass doesn't mean they have no more T-64, imho they sent those modern tanks AND the crew with it, why would russian soldiers trained on T-72B3 be instead downgraded to work on old T-64s? I know it's no use to use T-64 for the russian army currently, but i only speak in terms of strategic reserves of materiel.

AFAIK the T-64s are not in active service anymore. They definitely still do have at least some of them in reserve (others have been utilized). Perhaps in training units too, I dunno.

I hope that all plans for scrapping/utilizing, or converting even the oldest T-54 tanks - have been put on hold by now.
We're gonna need all the tanks we can get, to equip friendly forces and militias in the Ukraine, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Syria, Iraq and possibly in the near future other theatres and fronts too.

thus said, i still think Russia needs to start to off load some of the other stuff, BMP-1 & 2, T-55, T-62, T-64, BRDM-2, ZSU-23-4, ZSU-57-2, BMD-2,
PT-76, BTR-60, BTR-70, BM-21, MT-LB, BTR-50, 2S1, 2S3 most of this stuff simple upgrades would make them more effective, in the case of the ZSU-57-2 this would be better having an enclosed turret and be used as ground support than anti air, MT-LB can have just about anything attached to it, and the BTR-50 would be better used as command, Ambulance, or ammo transport, its size would be useful for this but as far as a combat role its too vulnerable, BMP-1 and 2 with upgrades are still useful as well as the tanks T-55/62/64 and 2S1, and 2S3, etc. As for T-72 and T-80 these could be upgraded and sold as a cheaper alternative to the T-90 (T-80 given a diesel engine) and i would keep some T-72 in reserve, chassis can be pretty useful as can the
T-55 chassis, i am in two minds if they should just sell all their T-80's and just keep T-72, upgraded T-80 (with diesel engine) might be more attractive to customers. To be honest i think even the T-34 with a few simple upgrades could be useful as fire support and the chassis could also be useful Cuba and Syria have used it as a basis for self propelled artillery. Older stuff like BTR-152, BTR-40, BRDM-1, BMD-1, and SU-100 have no real use other than possibly riot control (with modification) i think these would rather suited to be scrapped or filled with concrete and used as targets.

Theres plenty of sales opportunities to clear out this older stuff while the equipment (with upgrades) are still useful, leave it too late and your stuck with them, many poorer nations with smaller budgets would be happy to buy them, Russia might not make loads of cash from the sales but there many gains to be had, such as the countries who buy them will still need spares parts, and ammo for them, as well as training, then you have the political side of things, and another thing is if they get a good deal and buy from Russia then they won't be buying from anyone else such as western equipment. This allows Russia to off load old stuff, make some cash, and gain some political sway.

Russian Company Uralvagonzavod has developed upgrade kit for T-80BV/U main battle tank.
07.15.2016 05:25:43 Here: http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_defence_industry_military_technology_uk/russian_company_uralvagonzavod_has_developed_upgrade_kit_for_t-80bv/u_main_battle_tank_tass_11507162.html

Russia`s Uralvagonzavod scientific-research corporation has developed an upgrade kit to bring the ageing T-80BV / T-80U main battle tanks (MBT) to the level of modern Western MBTs, such as Leopard 2A5 / A6 and M1A1 / M1A2 Abrams, according to a source in Russian defense industry.

"The modernization of previously manufactured MBTs is the recent tendency of the tank-building industry. It provides point enhancement of the tank`s specifications and extends its service life. The massive operational deployment of tanks, the tendency to the reduction of tank forces, harsh economic conditions, and the cuts of the budgetary funds are the main prerequisites for the upgrade of MBTs in service. In such context, T-80BV is no exception," the source said.

According to him, the Omsktransmash Company (now a subsidiary of the UVZ Corporation) was producing T-80B tanks in 1979-1991. The manufacturer was gradually enhancing the tank`s specifications with T-80BV and T-80U/T-80UD being the most sophisticated variants. "At present, Russia`s Ministry of Defense (MoD) has several thousands of T-80BV/U tanks, mostly in store. The combat readiness of T-80-family tanks issued to armour units is getting worse, as the manufacturing of 1A33 fire control systems (FCS), 9K112-1 anti-tank guided missiles (ATGM), autoloaders, wind sensors, radio stations, and fire-extinguishing systems was ceased several years ago. To bridge this gap, Omsktransmash has developed the upgrade kit for T-80BV/U tanks. It will significantly increase the tank`s firepower and combat capabilities, as well as the level of its unification with T-72B/B3 MBTs. The modernization is going to save the MoD`s funds," the source emphasized.

The upgraded T-80 tank will receive Sosna-U gunner`s sighting system that incorporates optical sight, laser rangefinder and thermal imager, as well as ATGM control channel. Sosna-U increases the vehicle`s firing range at day and night to 3,300 m. The integrated laser rangefinder has a maximum range of 7,500 m. The tank`s commander also can fire the main gun, using gunner`s sighting systems in the duplicated mode. Sosna-U is complemented by the modified 1P67 optical sight that is used in emergency cases.

The upgraded T-80 MBTT is up-armoured with the Relikt explosive reactive armour (ERA) developed by NII Stali scientific-research institute (a subsidiary of the Tractor Plants concern). The Relikt ERA is based on the 4S23 high-sensitive explosive element that provides a high level of protection against Western armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) rounds, such as DM53 and DM63 developed by German Rheinmetall company. Hence, Relikt has several advantages over Kontakt-V ERA system integrated with T-90A and T-80U MBTs. The upgraded T-80 has also received a quick-operating fire-extinguishing unit and the PKUZ-1A collective protection system.

The driver`s seat of the enhanced T-80 MBT is equipped with modern TVN-5/TVN-5M (M stands for upgraded, Modernizirovanny) binocular night vision googles. Omsktransmash has enhanced the vehicle`s command controllability, having integrated the new R-168-25U-2 VHF radio station and upgraded INTERCOM system with it.

The upgraded T-80 tank has retained 125mm 2A46M/2A46M-5 smoothbore tank gun that can fire APFSDS, high-explosive (HE) and high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds, as well as ATGMs.

According to the Military Balance 2016 report issued by London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), Russia`s Armed Forces still operate 450 T-80BV/U main battle tanks (3,000 more T-80B/BV-U tanks are stored). Hence, the upgrade of the operational T-80-family vehicles is going to significantly increase the combat capabilities of Russian armour units.

Ru T80 here.

http://www.online-translator.com/siteTranslation/autolink/?direction=au-es&template=auto&sourceURL=https://topwar.ru/101113-t-80-na-forume-armiya-2016-pod-ekaterinburgom.html

For the following years the T-14, the T-90 and the T-72 seem to be the tanks for the Russian active forces, while the T-72 and the T-80 seem to be the tanks for the Russian reserve. The new T-14 seems to be the most likely option for the replacement in the active service of the less modern T-72 and the remaining T-80.

Despite it, I think the T-80 has still a life in the Russian reserve and should have a chance in some military campaign to restore part of its prestige. I think it would be possible.

In today's military campaigns, the strongest nations tend to fight with its reserve keeping intact its active force. It is a logical step, when the reserves tend to have the oldest warfare that must be used first, and at same time tend to have more experienced soldiers. In most of the cases the strongest nations need not to use their most advanced and modern weapons.

So with this news does this mean that the T80 will be placed in units on the border with ukraine or supplied to donbass army?

If they are using 200 T80 in active service and they have 4500 in storage and they have stopped producing some key components of the tanks... given the number in storage how many years of active service can russia get out of its current fleet on T80s based on past behaviour? Another 30 years?

franco wrote:The Russian Army has come with a modernization for the T-80BV of which they have 3,000 in storage. How many or the future usage of such not specified.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2251644.html

They wont modernize it. Or they will modernize the small amount they have and place those ones in the arctic as the article specifies particularly on the arctic conditions for the tank. So maybe 200 tanks will be modernized. In it's place, Armata will replace the existing T-80 slots used by the current units.

I love the comment section. Full of idiots like "Will not be able to get the thermals due to sanctions". Little does the person seem to realise, is Russia makes the matrices themselves with 1 company getting aid by France and another making it themselves. Hence why they are able to get them for Armata and why they are able to still modernize T-72B's to B3's. If they couldn't obtain them, then they wouldn't have the ability to make these new tanks.

franco wrote:The Russian Army has come with a modernization for the T-80BV of which they have 3,000 in storage. How many or the future usage of such not specified.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2251644.html

at least we learned some exact numbers. 3000 T-80s in storage and 200 T-80U (1985) in active service

miketheterrible wrote:

franco wrote:The Russian Army has come with a modernization for the T-80BV of which they have 3,000 in storage. How many or the future usage of such not specified.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2251644.html

They wont modernize it.  Or they will modernize the small amount they have and place those ones in the arctic as the article specifies particularly on the arctic conditions for the tank.  So maybe 200 tanks will be modernized.  In it's place, Armata will replace the existing T-80 slots used by the current units.

I love the comment section.  Full of idiots like "Will not be able to get the thermals due to sanctions".  Little does the person seem to realise, is Russia makes the matrices themselves with 1 company getting aid by France and another making it themselves.  Hence why they are able to get them for Armata and why they are able to still modernize T-72B's to B3's.  If they couldn't obtain them, then they wouldn't have the ability to make these new tanks.

there is of course an chance for export customers to purchase these. I would imagine, countries that could potentially buy these would be, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Belarus, Cyprus (to replace AMX-30B2), and possibly Syria and Yemen once there conflicts are over. But then the T-72B3M is also a really good tank for the price, which could make it difficult to sell the T-80. But Russia has to find something to do with all these T-80's. If i was Russia I would look to keep T-72 in reserve and sell off the T-80.

That is what I was expecting to happen. Sell T-80's off and then use money to purchase more Armata and upgrade of T-72B3/4. Makes more sense. But only other thing besides arctic where T-80 upgrades may work, is to get current reserve forces up to snuff so that if war breaks out, they have enough operational tanks. Since there are so many T-80's around and they can be close to T-90's in performance after upgrade, then they may see a need for this.

But I would have simply sold them off anyway. Way better to invest in a whole new capable system than to upgrade a tank that is outdone by upgraded T-72's and stranded T-90's.

Or modernize all 3000 T-80 and form 6 new Tank Armies !

Its 5-10 bin $ and Russia has started forming Tank Armies, 1st being also 1st in a row that was announced earlier.


Even at the time Russia has already chosen successor of the T-72, T-90, T-80 was selected for the modernization in the same numbers that exist now in Russian stockpiles

- The army T-80 has always occupied a special place - says the "News" Sergey Maiev. - The program of its modernization was taken back in 2002, but then realized it was not possible. As part of the program was planned to restore the 3 thousand. T-80.

but the stunning part would be if the modernization as similar as T-80 Black Eagle could be applied

Viktor wrote:Or modernize all 3000 T-80 and form 6 new Tank Armies !

Its 5-10 bin $ and Russia has started forming Tank Armies, 1st being also 1st in a row that was announced earlier.


Even at the time Russia has already chosen successor of the T-72, T-90, T-80 was selected for the modernization in the same numbers that exist now in Russian stockpiles

- The army T-80 has always occupied a special place - says the "News" Sergey Maiev. - The program of its modernization was taken back in 2002, but then realized it was not possible. As part of the program was planned to restore the 3 thousand. T-80.

but the stunning part would be if the modernization as similar as T-80 Black Eagle could be applied

If they're going to do any serious modernization of the T-80's, they better swap the gas turbines for diesels, add a automatic gear box (with multiple reverse gears), and rearrange the propellant stubs so that they lie flat/horizontally and not vertically. May'be they'll be better suited with their turrets converted to have a BMPT style weapon lay out, because it doesn't make sense to both modernize T-80's and the T-90's, the T-80 modernization would only make sense if they're being converted in to BMPT's.

Not sure if Russia can spend very much in upgrades for the T-80. Surely has other priorities for the following 10 years, and not sure if then will be done either.

My impression is that the upgrade packages can be more oriented to the sale of a number of units. The market is not easy but at same time I see one potential buyer that can purchase hundreds if not some thousand of units of T-80s. It is North Korea.

By the weather conditions it is one of the countries that can take better profit of the advantages of the T-80 in cold climates, and the T-80 seems to me a good option for North Korea for the replacement of their oldest tanks. North Korea is the country that can take them happy in the range of some thousand of units and like they are, wihtout changes. Since both countries can have a benefit, there is a probability to see it happening.

Russia to overhauled T-80 tanks back into service

http://defense-watch.com/2016/11/15/russia-put-overhauled-t-80-tanks-back-service/

T-80s modernized? Not sure if that's a good idea...

"Also, upgraded tanks consume less fuel."

A reference to replacement of turbine with recip engine?

It seems to me that Russias large store of reserve T-72/80 could be best used in the future once drone tech becomes sufficiently mature that robotic MBTs become a reality. Upgrade now with better armament, protection and powerplants in order to reinforce Russias active tank forces, and then convert them again in the (near?) future to remove crew and install RC mechanisms, sensors and datalinks as a "bolt-on" package. I can imagine a future Russian tank force comprised of manned Armata-class platforms, backed up with robotic T-72/80s as expendable force multipliers. For example, I could forsee a heavy APC Armata vehicle with nothjing but anti-infantry defensive weapons but kitted out drone operator stations controlling some 6-10 drone MBTs.