Russia and Turkey

Quite a long one, this.

Putin: Turkey deliberately leading relations with Russia 'into a gridlock'


Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused Turkey of intentionally bringing relations with Russia into a ‘gridlock’ following the incident with the downed Russian bomber in Syria.
The Turkish government has made no steps towards clearing up the situation with Russia after the Tuesday incident at the Syrian-Turkish border. The country has neither offered any compensation nor expressed any apologies over the death of the Russian pilot, thus apparently deliberately dampening relations with Moscow, Putin stressed in his speech at the presentation of foreign ambassadors’ letters of credence in the Kremlin on Thursday.


“We have still not heard any comprehensible apologies from the Turkish political leaders or any offers to compensate for the damage caused or promises to punish the criminals for their crime,” Russian president said.

“One gets the impression that the Turkish leaders are deliberately leading Russian-Turkish relations into a gridlock – and we are sorry to see this,” he added.


Vladimir Putin also emphasized that Turkey’s air forces hitting the Russian plane contradicted “common sense and international law [as] the plane was shot down over Syrian territory” and once again called the incident “a stab in the back.”

“I have to say that we find absolutely inexplicable the treacherous stabs in our back dealt by those we thought to be our partners and allies in the anti-terrorist struggle,” he said referring to the downing of the Russian bomber by a Turkish fighter jet.


At the same time, the Russian president expressed hope that a broad coalition could still be formed in order to counter the terrorist threat.

“I expect a truly broad international anti-terrorist coalition to be formed that would act in a coordinated fashion, as a powerful force and would, in particular, support the actions of the Russian troops that are carrying out successful military operations against terrorist groups in Syria,” Putin said in his speech.

Meanwhile, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that his country would not apologize for downing the Russian bomber.

“I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us,” he told CNN in an interview stressing that “those, who violated our airspace, are the ones who need to apologize” apparently referring to Russia.


“Our pilots and our armed forces, they simply fulfilled their duties, which consisted of responding to ... violations of the rules of engagement. I think this is the essence,” Erdogan added emphasizing that Turkey acted in line with its sovereign right to counter the threats to its security.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu also denied any possibility of an apology to Moscow during his visit to Nicosia, Cyprus.

“We don’t need to apologize on an occasion in which we are right,” he told journalists, although he claimed that Turkish authorities “said on the phone that [they] are sorry” referring to a telephone conversation with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Wednesday.
The Turkish government has made no steps towards clearing up the situation with Russia after the Tuesday incident at the Syrian-Turkish border. The country has neither offered any compensation nor expressed any apologies over the death of the Russian pilot, thus apparently deliberately dampening relations with Moscow, Putin stressed in his speech at the presentation of foreign ambassadors’ letters of credence in the Kremlin on Thursday.


“We have still not heard any comprehensible apologies from the Turkish political leaders or any offers to compensate for the damage caused or promises to punish the criminals for their crime,” Russian president said.

“One gets the impression that the Turkish leaders are deliberately leading Russian-Turkish relations into a gridlock – and we are sorry to see this,” he added.


Vladimir Putin also emphasized that Turkey’s air forces hitting the Russian plane contradicted “common sense and international law [as] the plane was shot down over Syrian territory” and once again called the incident “a stab in the back.”

“I have to say that we find absolutely inexplicable the treacherous stabs in our back dealt by those we thought to be our partners and allies in the anti-terrorist struggle,” he said referring to the downing of the Russian bomber by a Turkish fighter jet.


At the same time, the Russian president expressed hope that a broad coalition could still be formed in order to counter the terrorist threat.

“I expect a truly broad international anti-terrorist coalition to be formed that would act in a coordinated fashion, as a powerful force and would, in particular, support the actions of the Russian troops that are carrying out successful military operations against terrorist groups in Syria,” Putin said in his speech.

Meanwhile, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that his country would not apologize for downing the Russian bomber.

“I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us,” he told CNN in an interview stressing that “those, who violated our airspace, are the ones who need to apologize” apparently referring to Russia.


“Our pilots and our armed forces, they simply fulfilled their duties, which consisted of responding to ... violations of the rules of engagement. I think this is the essence,” Erdogan added emphasizing that Turkey acted in line with its sovereign right to counter the threats to its security.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu also denied any possibility of an apology to Moscow during his visit to Nicosia, Cyprus.

“We don’t need to apologize on an occasion in which we are right,” he told journalists, although he claimed that Turkish authorities “said on the phone that [they] are sorry” referring to a telephone conversation with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Wednesday.

Earlier on Thursday, Turkey’s president said his country would continue to open fire on foreign planes violating its airspace.

“If another violation of our aerial border happens, we can respond in the same way,” he said. “The plane was shot down within the rules of engagement announced earlier.”


In the meantime, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, accused Turkey of protecting the “armed thugs” that killed the Russian pilot during a news briefing.

“These people Ankara seeks to protect at every possible way including illegal means have nothing to do with civilians. They are armed thugs that shot down Russian pilot and then desecrated his body,” Zakharova said.

READ MORE: Hell has special place for murderers of downed pilots

The ministry’s spokeswoman also criticized NATO for not offering its condolences to Russia over the death of the pilot as well as for its attempts to put the blame for the incident on Russia and called it a “shame.”

She added that NATO apparently “pardoned” Turkey’s actions despite them threatening international security.

Zakharova also stressed that Turkey “clearly” is a terrorist accomplice as it downed a plane conducting an anti-terrorist combat mission.


“If someone hit those conducting an operation against terrorists, how can the actions of this side be described otherwise than as actions of terrorist accomplices? – Clearly, there is no other option here,” she said during the briefing.

On Wednesday, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev also called the actions of Turkey “de facto protection of Islamic State.”

On Tuesday, a Turkish F-16 fighter jet downed a Russian bomber conducting air strikes against terrorists in Syria. Ankara claims that the Russian Su-24M combat aircraft crossed the border and remained in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds having being previously warned not to approach 10 times.

Russia denies any violations. It also rejects Turkey’s claims that its military repeatedly warned the pilots of the Russian jet before attacking it.

https://www.rt.com/news/323593-turkey-russia-relations-gridlock/

Putin forbade employers to employ Turkish nationals in 2016

http://ria.ru/world/20151128/1331098555.html


Putin has decided to limit imports of goods from Turkey
http://ria.ru/economy/20151128/1331096400.html



The General staff Greece: Turkey has reduced violations of air borders of the country

http://ria.ru/world/20151129/1331280618.html

sepheronx wrote: They are like the Polish    

no  they are not  

Ok, lets have the whole text here for reference purposes. Courtesy ZH.

Vladimir Putin signed a decree "On measures to ensure the national security of the Russian Federation and the protection of Russian citizens from criminal and other illegal activities and the use of special economic measures against the Republic of Turkey."

November 28th, 2015 20:15
The text of the document:

In order to protect national security and national interests of the Russian Federation to protect Russian citizens from criminal and other illegal acts, and in accordance with the federal law of 30 December 2006 ? 281-FZ "On special economic measures" and on 28 December 2010 ? 390-FZ "On security" decree:

1. The authorities of the Russian Federation, federal government agencies, local authorities, legal entities, formed under the laws of the Russian Federation, organizations and individuals under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation, in its work to proceed from the fact that in the Russian Federation input time:

a) prohibition or restriction of foreign economic operations involving import into the Russian Federation of certain goods whose country of origin is the Republic of Turkey, on a list established by the Government of the Russian Federation (except for goods imported for personal use to the extent permitted by law of the Eurasian Economic Union);
b) the prohibition or restriction for organizations under the jurisdiction of the Republic of Turkey on the implementation of (provision) of certain types of work (services) in the territory of the Russian Federation on a list established by the Government of the Russian Federation;
c) prohibition for employers, customers of works (services) are not included in the list determined by the Government of the Russian Federation, to attract to January 1, 2016 in order to work, works (services) of workers citizens of the Republic of Turkey who are not labor and (or) civil-legal relations with these employers, customers of works (services) as of December 31, 2015

2. Pause from 1 January 2016 in accordance with the Federal Law of July 15, 1995 ? 101-FZ "On international treaties of the Russian Federation", and paragraph 1 of Article 10 of the Agreement between the Government of the Russian Federation and the Government of the Republic of Turkey on the terms of mutual trips of citizens the Russian Federation and citizens of the Republic of Turkey on May 12, 2010 action of the Agreement in respect of the journeys undertaken by citizens of the Turkish Republic, which are the owners of foreign passport, except citizens of the Republic of Turkey, who have a temporary residence permit or a residence permit on the territory of the Russian Federation and citizens of the Republic of Turkey sent to work in diplomatic missions and consular offices of the Republic of Turkey on the territory of the Russian Federation in possession of valid official and special passports, and their families.

3. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation in the established order the Republic of Turkey to send a notice of partial suspension of the Agreement, named in paragraph 2 of this Decree.

4. To establish that the tour operators and travel agents should refrain from implementing the citizens of the Russian Federation of the tourist product, include a visit to the Turkish Republic.

5. The Government of the Russian Federation:

a) define lists of goods, works (services) provided by subparagraphs "a" and "b" of paragraph 1 of this Decree;
b) to determine the list of employers, customers of works (services) provided by subparagraph "c" of paragraph 1 of this Decree;
c) to define the list of contracts concluded with organizations under the jurisdiction of the Republic of Turkey for the supply of goods (works, services) in respect of which special economic measures provided for in this Decree shall not apply;
d) adopt measures for the following:
a ban on charter air transportation between the Russian Federation and the Republic of Turkey;
strengthening of control over the activities of the Turkish road transport on the territory of the Russian Federation in order to ensure safety;
strengthening of port control and monitoring to ensure transport safety Russian waters of sea ports in the Black Sea region, including the prevention of illegal residence and movement, and other marine vessels in the waters of Russian sea ports;
e) if necessary, make proposals to amend the period of validity or the nature of the special economic and other measures provided for by this Decree.

6. This Decree shall enter into force on the date of its publication and is valid until they cancel the special economic and other measures.

Mil.Today tried to analyze why Turkey decided to shoot down the Russian bomber, what consequences may follow and why Russia has to respond on such aggression commensurately.

On Tuesday, November 24, Turkey shot down the Russian bomber Su-24 being on a tactical mission over Syrian territory. According to Ankara authorities, the warplane had violated Turkish airspace and then was destroyed by an F-16 fighter. Nevertheless, the fact of the bomber’s fall on the Syrian territory several kilometers away from the border indicates that, even if the Russian pilot entered Turkish airspace, he did that for a short period and had already left it by the time the Turkish missile hit the plane. Thus, instead of preventing the undesirable actions, Turkey penalized for them acting both as a judge and as a punisher.

There was no serious need for Turkey to shoot down an airplane belonging although not to ally but by no means to the enemy state. When giving an order to launch a missile against the Russian warplane, Turkish military were unlikely scared of the pilot’s intentions to drop bombs on, say, Gaziantep. Especially as the Turks themselves are not too sensitive to borders of other countries.

Throughout the first eight months of 2015, Turkish warplanes have violated Greek airspace 1,306 times. Sometimes even 20 Turkish fighters entered the Hellas territory. Turkish aircraft quite often broke airspace of Armenia, Russia’s ally in the Collective Security Treaty. Syria is also tops the Turkish Air Force’s illegal routes list; the Turks used to attack the Kurds fighting the Islamic State*. Occasionally, Turkey was even rebuffed by still-working Syrian air defenses. In 2012, Syrians shot down a Turkish F-4 fighter-bomber that had violated their borders. The incumbent president Erdogan said the following then:

"A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack. The Turkish jet was on a training flight testing Turkey's radars in the eastern Mediterranean".

One may sprang to call Erdogan a hypocrite, but in fact he just protects national interests. Namely, he does things that many people expect from the Russian leaders. Turkey regards Syria an area of its own interests, that is why Russia’s interference with Syrian civil war on the side of Assad naturally caused negative reaction amid not only Turkish ‘hawks’ but quite moderate politicians as well.

The situation heated up heavily when the Russian Airspace Force delivered strikes upon a region populated by Syrian Turkmen also known as Turkomen. This Turkey-loyal ethnic group has been fighting against Assad from the very beginning of the conflict and is under Ankara’s wing receiving military and informational support. That is why Russian attacks upon Turkomen positions coupled with flights in Turkish airspace have finally caused reasonable anger among Turkish officials. So, when the Turks had a smallest chance for revenge, they willingly took advantage of it by using the zero tolerance policy.

Now the ‘ball’ is in our court, and if Russia wants to provide a commensurable answer, looking for a reason will present no problems. It will be enough to seize the right moment when at least a wing of a Turkish F-16 enters airspace of Syria or Armenia. However, it is highly doubtful that Russia is ready for a minimal military confrontation with Turkey, as Ankara has two serious cards up sleeve – the Black Sea straits and the NATO membership.

In case the Turks close the Bosphorus and Dardanelles straits, a considerable threat would hang over the Russian airbase in Latakia and the naval group in the Mediterranean, not to mention that the Russia’s Black Sea Fleet would then turn into a cut-out flotilla. Sure, in such case Russian foreign ministry would continuously issue menacing statements full of references to international maritime laws, but they will be unlikely interesting for anybody beyond Russia.

Another serious issue, although not so critical, is Turkey’s membership in NATO. According to the charter of the North Atlantic alliance, an attack on one NATO member state is an aggression against the entire alliance. Indeed, if anything crops up, Turkey would unlikely wish to deal with its plane crash alone. Nonetheless, Syrian military did shoot down a Turkish aircraft within their airspace, but no essential reaction was demonstrated by NATO allies.

Russia may react on the Turks’ actions more moderately through military support of Kurdish militia which is sometimes attacked by pro-Turkey rebels and Turkish Air Force. That would be much easier because the Kurds are already supported by the US. So, the Turks would unlikely find an adequate reason to criticize Russia’s assistance to militants fighting the Islamic State*.

Meanwhile, Russia has already launched an economic war. Russian tour operators cancelled charter flights to the Republic of Turkey and suspended sales of vacation packages to Turkish resorts. In addition, some Russian supervisory agencies now have claims against Turkish products. That may potentially mean an embargo on Turkish imports.

Proportional response to Turkey: a forced necessity

It is important to realize that Russia’s weak-kneed reply on the Turkish aggression may come at a great cost, and the matter is not only reputational loss. Actually, international laws don’t fix anything on the world stage, and states act under primitive rules when strong countries may do almost everything while weak countries – almost nothing. For instance, few people were discomforted when in 2003 the US triggered a war in Iraq without the UN authorization. The similar ‘trick’ of Americans in the Syrian conflict was not taken as bad affair either.

In due time none international law would have kept the USSR out of the full-fledged attack from Japan if the Soviets failed to give a fitting rebuff in the Nomonhan Incident in 1939. Prior to that conflict, the Japanese for several months had been arranging provocations on the border between the two puppet states, the Mongolian People’s Republic (USSR) and Manchukuo (Japan).

The conflict started in January and in the first months it went as the Japanese attacks upon the smaller Mongolian border units. However, the tensions developed and in May the Soviet troops were deployed in that region. This, however, did not ease the tension. Shortly after, real battles began and rather quickly achieved the level of armored and even air confrontation.

Battles lasted till August 1939 and the Soviets finally won. In total, that conflict claimed about 55,000 lives. Some Russian historians believe that the USSR’s victory in that incident prevented attack of Japan on the Soviet Union during the WWII, as the Nomonhan experience gave the Japanese a reason to shake head at potential triumph over the Soviets in a large-scale war. That is why, despite allied obligations, the Land of the Rising Sun refused to enter the war against the USSR on the German side.

Now Russia is in the similar conditions. Therefore, from a military perspective, the Turks may interpret mild reply as a sign that Russia would always react on its shot-down warplanes by filing another note of protest or convening another emergency session of the UN Security Council, so, by any harmless things. Then next time the Turks will shoot down a Russian plane not due to “airspace violation” but because it flies in Syria over ‘wrong’ militants. Say, over the Turkomen who finished off the Russian pilot.

The coming weeks will show whether the military viewpoint is leading or there is something more weighty in the bunch of geopolitical counter-balances.

http://mil.today/2015/Incidents3/

Not exactly related but Explosion in the vicinity or inside Bajram Pasha Metro Station in Istanbul.

I hope this isn't IS-related karma.

Russia has many foes with regard to Syria. Main is USA but US as long as ICBMs reach US mainland never starts open war with Russia. But there are Saudis, Turkey and Q8. Removing Turkey out of equation and hopefully increasing insensitivity of war in Yemen takes 2 contenders out. Then Q8 alone is to be fight with.

KoTeMoRe wrote:Not exactly related but Explosion in the vicinity or inside Bajram Pasha Metro Station in Istanbul.

I hope this isn't IS-related karma.

I´d say Erdogan needs to divert attention from his person.

This is apparently what Turkish Gray Wolves see as their ultimate goal xD Yakutistan made me lol i must admit.

Meanwhile, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that his country would not apologize for downing the Russian bomber.

“I think if there is a party that needs to apologize, it is not us,”

I knew nothing about this guy, but my first impression was he's a textbook sociopath.  

http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html wrote:Sociopaths are masters at weaving elaborate fictional explanations to justify their actions. When caught red-handed, they respond with anger and threats, then weave new fabrications to explain away whatever they were caught doing.

A sociopath caught red-handed with a suitcase full of cash he just stole, for example, might declare he had actually rescued the money from being stolen by someone else, and that he was attempting to find its rightful owner. He's the hero, see? And yet, in reality, he will simply pocket the money and keep it. If you question him about the money, he will attack you for questioning his honesty.

Sociopaths are masters are presenting themselves as heroes with high morals and philosophy, yet underneath it they are the true criminal minds in society who steal, undermine, deceive, and often incite emotional chaos among entire communities. They are masters at turning one group of people against another group while proclaiming themselves to be the one true savior. Wherever they go, they create strife, argument and hatred, yet they utterly fail to see their own role in creating it. They are delusional at so many levels that their brains defy logical reasoning.

You cannot reason with a sociopath. Attempting to do so only wastes your time and annoys the sociopath.

Tip for exposing sociopaths: Start fact-checking something they claim
One simple method for dispelling sociopathic delusion is to start fact checking their claims. Do any of their claims actually check out? If you start digging, you will usually find a pattern of frequent inconsistencies. Confront the suspected sociopath with an inconsistency and see what happens: Most sociopaths will become angry or aggressive when their integrity is questioned, whereas a sane person would simply be happy to help clear up any misinformation or misunderstanding.

Beware of fact-checking the sociopath by asking other people under his or her influence. A sociopath will usually have a small group of cult-like followers who not only believe their fictional tales, but who actually internalize those fictions to the point where they rewrite their own memories to be consistent with them.
...
Another very valuable red flag to recognize when trying to spot a sociopath is to see how they deal with attacks on their own integrity. If a sociopath is presented with a collection of facts, documents and evidence showing that he lied or deceived, he will refuse to address the evidence and, instead, attack the messenger!

If you really try to nail a sociopath down to answering a documented allegation, they will quickly turn on you, denounce you, and declare that you too are secretly plotting against them.

Lots more I could post from the article http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html

Senator: the Russian Federation does not need help Turkey to prevent incidents in the air.

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151201/1333720844.html

MOSCOW, 1 Dec — RIA Novosti. Russia will cope on their own with the prevention of future incidents similar to those that occurred with su-24, the help of Turkey it is not necessary, said the first Deputy Chairman of the Federation Council Committee on defense Franz Klintsevich.
The Chairman of Committee of the State Duma on security and countering corruption Irina Yarovaya.

Earlier Reuters reported that Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu at a press conference in Ankara called for the establishment of military communication channels with Russia to prevent incidents similar to the incident with su-24.
"In addition, these channels (channels of communication — ed.) were, but at the most critical moment for some reason didn't work. Why? This question should be addressed to the Turkish side. Now Russia itself has done all it can to eliminate such incidents in the future," he told RIA Novosti.
According to the Senator, Russia is not going to go to the Turkish side to meet in an attempt to "save face" and to mitigate the effects of the tragic incident with the plane.
"I think that the call by the Prime Minister of Turkey to create military communication channels with Russia to prevent such incidents will remain without response," he said.


РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20151201/1333720844.html#ixzz3t7OiIBBC

Militarov wrote:
This is apparently what Turkish Gray Wolves see as their ultimate goal xD Yakutistan made me lol i must admit.

so Yakutistani are also Turkomen right?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
so Yakutistani are also Turkomen right?

Yes only Christian and Asian

flamming_python wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
so Yakutistani are also Turkomen right?

Yes only Christian and Asian

Does not matter, will be cleansed or decapitated Syrian way, women and little girls sold to slavery to pervert Arabs from Q8 and Sauds. .Important resources under " international control ".


Maybe there is a need to start hunting for wolves?

So the stupid Turkokistanis are now trying to undermine Russian influence in former soviet states of Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and other Stans, I surely hope Russia is prepared to counter this Turko Terror scheme!

Project Canada wrote:So the stupid Turkokistanis are now trying to undermine Russian influence in former soviet states of Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and other Stans, I surely hope Russia is prepared to counter this Turko Terror scheme!

To short hands to fight with Russia. US/UK here is them main problem. I wonder what now will be with Turkish invasion in Iraq? will they be bombed?

"The Turkish army has banned its staff from traveling to Russia for holidays, local media say, amid heightened tensions between the two countries. The army personnel were informed of the new decision through a mandate sent from the headquarters to the service commands. They were also told to take permission before taking any foreign trips. Last month, the Turkish Foreign Ministry advised the Turkish nationals to delay all their non-urgent trips to Russia.

Turkey and Russia have been locked in a war of words since November 24, when Turkey downed the Russian Su-24 fighter jet over Syria, claiming that it had violated Turkish airspace, an accusation strongly rejected by Moscow. The aircraft’s two pilots ejected as it was going down in flames. One of them was killed by militants in Syria, while the second was picked up by the Syrian army.Turkey’s state-run Anadolu news agency said on Sunday that military personnel and academy students were banned from taking holidays in Russia as a “precautionary measure” after a Russian warplane was recently shot down near the Turkish border with Syria. Russian President Vladimir Putin said immediately after the incident that the downing of the Russian plane would have “serious consequences” for Moscow-Ankara ties.



Russia has imposed sanctions against Turkey since then, such as banning imports of some Turkish foods, reintroducing visas for Turkish nationals and stopping the sales of holiday packages to Turkey. Putin also called the incident a “stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists.” He demanded that Ankara apologize over the incident. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has, however, responded by saying that Turkey does not owe Russia an apology over the matter.

Moscow-Ankara relations further strained after Ankara deployed troops to northern Iraq. Turkey claims the dispatch is part of a deal with Baghdad to train Kurdish forces. Baghdad, however, strongly condemned the presence of Turkish forces as an intervention. On December 8, Russia’s Foreign Ministry said it considered Ankara’s dispatch of its forces “illegal” and “a very serious factor of tensions,” emphasizing that “the forces arrived there without the approval of the Iraqi government.”

Source: http://www.therussophile.org/turkey-army-bans-staff-from-traveling-to-russia.html/

Ship flying Turkish flag hampered Russian drilling rig movement in Black Sea

The commander of the Turkish ship did not connect with the convoy vessels using radio exchange and did not respond to calls

SIMFEROPOL, December 14. /TASS/. A ship flying the flag of Turkey headed off from rig mobilization of Chernomorneftegaz to the Russian territorial maritime belt, the company reported on Monday.

"In the path of the convoy of vessels with a hauled object there emerged an unidentified commercial ship flying the Turkish flag. Acting in breach of international regulations of forestalling a collision of ships and agreed standards of maritime traffic, the Turkish vessel did not give way to the cross-running convoy and attempted to stop on its sailing line, creating an intentionally emergency situation. The commander of the Turkish ship did not connect with the convoy vessels using radio exchange and did not respond to calls," Chernomorneftegaz said, refusing to specify the date of the incident.

According to the company, a patrol boat of the Border Guard Service of Russia’s Federal Security Service and a rocket craft of the Black Sea Fleet helped iron out misunderstanding as they "forced the vessel flying the Turkish flag to change the course in the direction safe for the transport convoy."

Two drilling rig systems worth more than 25 bln rubles ($354 mln) were hauled away from the Odessa gas field (located 150 kilometers off the Crimean coast) to the Russian territorial maritime belt "due to complicated international environment and risks of loss of assets vital for Chernomorneftegaz."

Both drilling rug systems are currently in the Russian territorial maritime belt.

Russia is showing remarkable restraint in the face of essentially intolerable Turkish provocations.

Russia would be justified in seizing or sinking numerous Turkish ships throughout the Black Sea.

Russia is clearly working for the cause of peace, hoping to avoid the world being hurled into a massive conflict.

We are getting too used to the western procedure of sanctions and then direct action with a view to regime change perhaps.

Russia does not need to remove Erdogan from power, nor bully Turkey into doing what Russia wants.

Accepting that Russia and Turkey wont be BFFs and taking steps to avoid problems in the future is the best likely outcome... that means defending Russian aircraft and ships and also cutting ties that could be used against Russia in the future.

As I said they are not trying to cripple Turkey or force a regime change from the outside or within.

GarryB wrote:We are getting too used to the western procedure of sanctions and then direct action with a view to regime change perhaps.

Russia does not need to remove Erdogan from power, nor bully Turkey into doing what Russia wants.

Accepting that Russia and Turkey wont be BFFs and taking steps to avoid problems in the future is the best likely outcome... that means defending Russian aircraft and ships and also cutting ties that could be used against Russia in the future.

As I said they are not trying to cripple Turkey or force a regime change from the outside or within.

Anyway, right now it's very complicated to have a desirable regime change. A bit like Putin for Russia, the risk with Erdogan is that his "majority" is very specific. So Him going down, we have no exact guarantee that guys from secular parties, will step up. The more likely outcome is that a harder line will prevail. Plus Turks are very proud, even the Anti-Erdogan would have to hit back at any internal political meddling.

They've done so in the past.

KoTeMoRe wrote:

GarryB wrote:We are getting too used to the western procedure of sanctions and then direct action with a view to regime change perhaps.

Russia does not need to remove Erdogan from power, nor bully Turkey into doing what Russia wants.

Accepting that Russia and Turkey wont be BFFs and taking steps to avoid problems in the future is the best likely outcome... that means defending Russian aircraft and ships and also cutting ties that could be used against Russia in the future.

As I said they are not trying to cripple Turkey or force a regime change from the outside or within.

Anyway, right now it's very complicated to have a desirable regime change. A bit like Putin for Russia, the risk with Erdogan is that his "majority" is very specific. So Him going down, we have no exact guarantee that guys from secular parties, will step up. The more likely outcome is that a harder line will prevail. Plus Turks are very proud, even the Anti-Erdogan would have to hit back at any internal political meddling.

They've done so in the past.

Ultimately Russia will have to seize control of the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, taking Constantinople and European Turkey, leaving the Turks Anatolia, but this is easier said than done [quite easily accomplished, but with much political fallout and it might rally Russian muslims against Russia] and now is not the appropriate time for such an undertaking.

But long-term, Russia must control the Dardanelles.

GarryB wrote:We are getting too used to the western procedure of sanctions and then direct action with a view to regime change perhaps.

Russia does not need to remove Erdogan from power, nor bully Turkey into doing what Russia wants.

Accepting that Russia and Turkey wont be BFFs and taking steps to avoid problems in the future is the best likely outcome... that means defending Russian aircraft and ships and also cutting ties that could be used against Russia in the future.

As I said they are not trying to cripple Turkey or force a regime change from the outside or within.

Let me ask then what Russia is supposed to do with situation with Syria and Iraq? remember that Saudis and Turks go for war in 7miles boots.

BTRfan wrote: Ultimately Russia will have to seize control of the Bosporus and the Dardanelles, taking Constantinople and European Turkey, leaving the Turks Anatolia, but this is easier said than done [quite easily accomplished, but with much political fallout and it might rally Russian muslims against Russia] and now is not the appropriate time for such an undertaking.

But long-term, Russia must control the Dardanelles.

Nice dream but unless Russia is 500mlns population and 5xeconomy little chances.

Let me ask then what Russia is supposed to do with situation with Syria and Iraq? remember that Saudis and Turks go for war in 7miles boots.

Only a stable country can clean house of ISIS elements.

So step one in Syria is to get the various groups who are worth cooperating with together to cooperate.

That means the Syrian Army, the Kurds, and the anti assad forces need to get together and stop fighting each other with the agreement that when ISIS is fucked that first of all everyone will lay down their weapons and then solve the problems at the ballot box and through politics.

Violence is no way to create a country... Israel was created in violence and the violence continues because neither side listens and uses violence to get their way or to protest not getting their way.

In Iraq Russia can provide weapons and ammo and give advice and support. At any stage if Iraq asks for more then Russia will likely oblige but until they ask they should not make presumptions... at the end of the day it is up to Syria and Iraq to solve some serious fundamental problems that allowed ISIS to grow so strong in the first place...

GarryB wrote:

Let me ask then what Russia is supposed to do with situation with Syria and Iraq? remember that Saudis and Turks go for war in 7miles boots.

Only a stable country can clean house of ISIS elements.

So step one in Syria is to get the various groups who are worth cooperating with together to cooperate.

That means the Syrian Army, the Kurds, and the anti assad forces need to get together and stop fighting each other with the agreement that when ISIS is fucked that first of all everyone will lay down their weapons and then solve the problems at the ballot box and through politics.

Violence is no way to create a country... Israel was created in violence and the violence continues because neither side listens and uses violence to get their way or to protest not getting their way.

In Iraq Russia can provide weapons and ammo and give advice and support. At any stage if Iraq asks for more then Russia will likely oblige but until they ask they should not make presumptions... at the end of the day it is up to Syria and Iraq to solve some serious fundamental problems that allowed ISIS to grow so strong in the first place...

Syria is not in a position to offer the Kurds independence, it will destabilize the entire region. They should be offered regional autonomy within the framework of a unified Syria.

I never said offer the Kurds full independence.

It really wont work if everyone gets exactly what they want because there are too many conflicting positions.

What I am suggesting is that to start with the Kurds might get greater autonomy in their region, but it would have to include agreements not to agitate in other regions... ie they can't be a base in kurdish syria for terrorist attacks in other kurdish regions like turkey and Iran and Iraq.

At the end of the day the only reason the lines on the map of the middle east are where they are is because that divided up the known and suspected oil reserves in the immediate post WWI period when British and French bureaucrats were dividing the spoils of war.

At the end of the day Syria is going to have to give something up to get back the peace and stability they want... They might be able to offer the Kurds a situation where the Kurds are happy and wont demand full independence... but that will come at the negotiating table... not from the barrel of a gun.

GarryB wrote:I never said offer the Kurds full independence.

It really wont work if everyone gets exactly what they want because there are too many conflicting positions.

What I am suggesting is that to start with the Kurds might get greater autonomy in their region, but it would have to include agreements not to agitate in other regions... ie they can't be a base in kurdish syria for terrorist attacks in other kurdish regions like turkey and Iran and Iraq.

With Iran and Iraq agreed but in Turkey is good for Russia. Same way Turkey finances terrorists among Tatars and in Caucasus.

GarryB wrote:
At the end of the day the only reason the lines on the map of the middle east are where they are is because that divided up the known and suspected oil reserves in the immediate post WWI period when British and French bureaucrats were dividing the spoils of war.

At the end of the day Syria is going to have to give something up to get back the peace and stability they want... They might be able to offer the Kurds a situation where the Kurds are happy and wont demand full independence... but that will come at the negotiating table... not from the barrel of a gun.

besides Kurds and Assad supporters you got some hard islamists (FSA) and streams of money from Saudis/Qataris. I believe also some Syrian land might be under all-lies occupation after collapse of igil. I mean will be freed for democracy.

If the proturkish elements want to oppose Russia and Assad that just means no place at the table for them.

It just adds them to the ISIS list of allies to be destroyed.

All evidence from the dead bodies of the terrorists and their computers should be used in the UN to punish any country that supported terrorism in Syria... those responsible should be exposed even if they are above the law and are protected... at least shame them and list all their sources of income... I for one wont buy products from a company owned by someone selling vehicles to ISIS or gains from illegal oil exports etc.