Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+65
PapaDragon
Stealthflanker
Vann7
Strizh
Khepesh
Bolt
k@llashniKoff
cheesfactory
alexZam
AbsoluteZero
EKS
Acheron
KoTeMoRe
smerch24
xeno
Rmf
victor1985
2SPOOKY4U
Brovich
cracker
mack8
Cpt Caz
OminousSpudd
Dima
ult
akd
chicken
Big_Gazza
GarryB
mutantsushi
fragmachine
RTN
NickM
Mike E
sweetflowers365
calripson
Asf
Vympel
AZZKIKR
runaway
magnumcromagnon
etaepsilonk
Morpheus Eberhardt
NationalRus
As Sa'iqa
Sujoy
Department Of Defense
Regular
gaurav
AJ-47
AlfaT8
Viktor
Werewolf
collegeboy16
Russian Patriot
flamming_python
Cyberspec
Austin
Mindstorm
KomissarBojanchev
medo
Zivo
George1
TR1
TheArmenian
69 posters

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    avatar
    Austin


    Posts : 7617
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Austin Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:53 pm

    India is in the process of upgrading its BMP-2 , Hopefully a new 57 mm Gun is part of the deal.
    avatar
    Austin


    Posts : 7617
    Points : 8014
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Austin Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:27 am

    Russia will create a new BMP specifically for the "Mistral"

    The source said the newspaper, the new machine should be no longer were in service with BMP-2, BMP-3 and BTR-80. Mass of the new BMP for "Mistral" is to be about 30 tons. In addition, the armored car to be installed set of passive protection and active protection of the "Arena". Power unit for the BMP should be no less than 400 horsepower, and it must be installed or a gas turbine engine with electric transmission or engine power of 750 horsepower from the perspective of armored vehicles "Kurganets-25" or BMP-3F.
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:40 am

    Could it really be? Will the PT-76 finally be retired?
    TR1
    TR1


    Posts : 5435
    Points : 5433
    Join date : 2011-12-07

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  TR1 Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:38 am

    Don't think there are many units even using PT-76 at this point.
    collegeboy16
    collegeboy16


    Posts : 1135
    Points : 1134
    Join date : 2012-10-05
    Age : 28
    Location : Roanapur

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  collegeboy16 Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:25 pm

    Austin wrote:Russia will create a new BMP specifically for the "Mistral"

    The source said the newspaper, the new machine should be no longer were in service with BMP-2, BMP-3 and BTR-80. Mass of the new BMP for "Mistral" is to be about 30 tons. In addition, the armored car to be installed set of passive protection and active protection of the "Arena". Power unit for the BMP should be no less than 400 horsepower, and it must be installed or a gas turbine engine with electric transmission or engine power of 750 horsepower from the perspective of armored vehicles "Kurganets-25" or BMP-3F.
    Sounds more like an EFV to me.
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:31 pm

    TR1 wrote:Don't think there are many units even using PT-76 at this point.

    I think there's still ~20 of them in service.
    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec


    Posts : 2904
    Points : 3057
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Cyberspec Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:00 am

    Prospective 57mm gun/turret for IFV's

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 220777120_57_1_122_530loKurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 220779520_57_2_122_491lo
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:05 am

    I thought the turrets were unmanned on the new IFVs. Could this just be a possible upgrade to the BMP-2? Maybe something for export?

    I really like retractable Kornet-EM. I wonder if it's slaved to the main gun or independently aimed by the commander?
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40560
    Points : 41062
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  GarryB Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:53 pm

    I thought the turrets were unmanned on the new IFVs. Could this just be a possible upgrade to the BMP-2? Maybe something for export?

    This is probably the 57mm equivalent of the Kliver turret though looking at the size of the rounds I suspect this might be the 45mm gun perhaps. I suspect with the 57mm rounds there will be little room for crew.

    I really like retractable Kornet-EM. I wonder if it's slaved to the main gun or independently aimed by the commander?

    With capability against aerial targets and a high elevation main gun very likely I would suspect elevation of the missiles would be a requirement.
    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec


    Posts : 2904
    Points : 3057
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Cyberspec Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:29 pm

    The 45mm turret has been reportedly chosen for the Kurganets/Boomerang in preference over the 57mm model posted above. But there is a possibility that it could be used as an upgrade for older IFV's
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:53 pm

    The last official statement about it I've seen is that they were going with the 57mm, and two cheap guided munitions, one being Kornet, they were not clear about the second round. Garry suggested a guided 57mm round, which is probably correct.

    Read back a few pages it should be there.
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian


    Posts : 1880
    Points : 2025
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  TheArmenian Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:48 pm

    I'm loving this design more every day.
    Vehicles with this 45/57 mm gun combined with ATGM systems can target everything and anything. With new Main Battle Tanks getting heavier and super expensive.These more compact and efficient systems should do the bulk of the job on the battlefield. Would like to see them on Kurganets, BMP, Boomerang, BTR...on everything that has wheels or tracks.
    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2489
    Points : 2480
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  AlfaT8 Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:49 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:I'm loving this design more every day.
    Vehicles with this 45/57 mm gun combined with ATGM systems can target everything and anything. With new Main Battle Tanks getting heavier and super expensive.These more compact and efficient systems should do the bulk of the job on the battlefield. Would like to see them on Kurganets, BMP, Boomerang, BTR...on everything that has wheels or tracks.

    Than it will have to be an unmanned version of it. Neutral
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40560
    Points : 41062
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:09 am

    The fact that the proposed turret above has two crew in it suggests that this is a proposed turret for upgrading vehicles like the PT-76 or other vehicle types rather than the new IFV turret for new vehicles... which will certainly be unmanned.

    The IFV turret for the new vehicles (armata, kurganets-10, boomerang-25, boomerang-10) will actually be RWS in the sense that they will be unmanned and separating the crew from weapons, ammo, and fuel for their safety.

    The 45mm turret has been reportedly chosen for the Kurganets/Boomerang in preference over the 57mm model posted above. But there is a possibility that it could be used as an upgrade for older IFV's

    The telescoped case of the 45mm should make the ammo relatively compact compared with the very large shells of teh 57mm, but the large case capacity of the 57mm would allow larger, more effective guided rounds to be developed.

    Perhaps a solution could be found with two piece ammo?

    A 45mm round with half the guided projectile down its centre surrounded by propellent with another piece that is all projectile the size of a full unfired 45mm round that joins on the front of the half of the missile in the standard shell.

    Load the projectile first and then load the rear portion next to push the front part of the missile into the first part of the barrel with the rest of the missile and the propellent into the chamber so you can have a double sized projectile. The rate of fire will of course be lower, but with a guided shell even 60 rounds per minute will be devastating. You could have a separate loading feed for the guided front parts of the missile, or load the front part of the missile in front of the rear part of the missile in the ammo rack at the cost of a reduction of ready to use rounds, though the benefit of a much larger warhead/payload would make it worth it in my opinion.

    The best option in my opinion however would be to just develop a 57mm telescoped round with more room for a guided projectile.

    Than it will have to be an unmanned version of it.

    That just means more ready to use ammo.

    In fact an air defence model based on the IFV with the rear troop compartment replaced by an enormous automated ammo handling system with a couple of hundred extra rounds would make it a very potent BMPT with very impressive fire power for escort/guard duty missions.
    TR1
    TR1


    Posts : 5435
    Points : 5433
    Join date : 2011-12-07

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:32 am

    57mm is a huge gun on an APC, the ammo count would be either very low, or it would simply be an issue of internal space...
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:03 pm

    It will only take one or two 57mm rounds to deal with most threats. Laser guidance, shrapnel sleeves, and delayed fuses will increase both accuracy and lethality.

    Keep in mind NATO IFVs are going to get much larger in the future. You can have all the 30mm you want, but if it cant kill your target it's useless. In asymmetric warfare, the 57mm also has some very distinct advantages, especially in cities or other urbanized areas. Ten guerrillas stacked up on a corner taking turns shooting at your armor at the end of a road wouldn't be very happy when a 57mm smart round detonates right next to them. Twisted Evil

    Just keep your fingers crossed for telescopic rounds.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40560
    Points : 41062
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:24 pm

    The story I remember hearing is that the 57mm setup was originally developed as an upgrade for the PT-76 as a replacement for the old 76.2mm rifled gun and was based on the S-60 anti aircraft round used on the ZSU-57-2 SP and S-60 towed AAG.

    The 45mm round was a new design especially designed for the BMP-4 to replace the 30mm round that was no longer effective against enemy IFV at useful battlefield ranges.

    There was also a 45mm round used in an aerial cannon for the Il-102.

    The issue seems to be that the 57mm round has more space for guided rounds which gives it an advantage, but the old style huge case takes up a lot of room in an armoured vehicle so the 45mm is looking good too.

    The old 57mm rounds were powerful but not fantastic by todays standards in terms of HE capacity and AP performance, though new ammo types could certainly deal with that as an issue.

    Personally I think the 45mm gun might have better performance, but the 57mm gun might win in the same way the 122mm gun was chosen over the 100mm gun for the IS-3 tank because the larger round probably has a more useful HE shell, and the AP will be almost as good, but most importantly I would think that the guided shell of the 57mm round will be better and a good guided round would be the best compensation for reduced ammo capacity.

    Of course it is hard to give a definitive response without knowing the actual performance of either round... though they do want new and the 57mm round is not new.

    Having said that a new 57mm round and gun would be useful for the Army, Navy and Air Force with guided shells revolutionising land and naval air defence and making air attacks using guns a lot safer too.
    TR1
    TR1


    Posts : 5435
    Points : 5433
    Join date : 2011-12-07

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  TR1 Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:06 pm

    I will bet anyone here a nice pizza the IFV will not have a 57mm weapon.

    45mm at largest.
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:33 pm

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Sav2057mm006
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Sav2057mm005
    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Sav2057mm007

    Second image, bottom left turret could hold 200-300 rounds if they made the magazine extend to the IFV's floor. Without the crew in the turret, ammo space becomes much larger.

    They've thought about it.
    KomissarBojanchev
    KomissarBojanchev


    Posts : 1429
    Points : 1584
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 27
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  KomissarBojanchev Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:35 am

    YEESS! So the MOD IS actually considering using the 57mm cannon on spme AFVs and not completely abandoning it to the weaker 45mm.
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:45 am

    The 45mm isn't exactly weaker, but it will have less HE capability. Guided munitions will also be less effective. The tradeoff is that telescopic 45mm would be easier for the auto loader to handle and would use more compact rounds, so more ammunition could be stored. The 57mm has good HE performance, but not much else. Sabots and guided munitions would have to be developed for both rounds.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 40560
    Points : 41062
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:33 pm

    It is not really about weak or strong rounds... they could go for a high velocity 90mm round if they wanted a powerful gun, but at the end of the day they want the weapon to perform a specific task... this weapon doesn't need to penetrate tanks at 2km from the front... it is for use against non-tank targets like IFVs and other vehicles, and also light aircraft.

    I rather suspect that if there is a 45mm round and a 57mm round in the running then for there to actually be a competition they both need to be able to do the job. The question then comes down to what added features do they add, and I suspect the 57mm round is hyping its guided shells, while I suspect the 45mm is hyping that it is a modern powerful compact round that can operate in a short compact gun mechanism, yet with potent HE and APFSDS rounds that will do the job.

    It is completely possible that both weapons might enter service with the 45mm gun on lighter vehicles and the 57mm gun on medium vehicles.

    It is also possible that they might decide the larger calibre is useful and to invest in a 57mm telescoped case round to be designed that combines the compact ammo and projectile capacity with the power and accuracy of a modern design plus the simple loading mechanism.

    In fact they might design a gun that can fire either a 57mm or a 45mm telescoped case round and use both...or they could go for a 60mm high velocity round and use neither.
    avatar
    AJ-47


    Posts : 205
    Points : 222
    Join date : 2011-10-05
    Location : USA

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  AJ-47 Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:45 am

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 57mm_g11

    There are some more pictures for this turret. This is the 57mm and this turret can replace old turrets.But by doing it you lose the APC and get a Fire Support Vehicle. So you will have APC with dismount soliders, and FSV with only 4-5 crew soldiers to support them.
    Zivo
    Zivo


    Posts : 1487
    Points : 1511
    Join date : 2012-04-13
    Location : U.S.A.

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Zivo Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:26 am

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Gt8xa

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 OV2qw
    AlfaT8
    AlfaT8


    Posts : 2489
    Points : 2480
    Join date : 2013-02-02

    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:17 am

    Oook.....why does it look like a Stryker/Patria?? Suspect

    I was expecting more of a BTR shaping. cry


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:42 am; edited 2 times in total

    Sponsored content


    Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1 - Page 5 Empty Re: Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun Nov 24, 2024 5:04 am