Kurganets & Boomerang Discussions Thread #1

Regular wrote:Nice catch man. I noticed that Russian army was using western tires a lot, nice to see Belarussians are having their slice.

Brovich wrote:Just created the Kurganets-25 Wikipedia page. THIS

Feel free to add sourced info.

Cyberspec wrote:Thanks. There was talk that it was going to use Michelin tyres not long ago...

Regular wrote:Nice catch man. I noticed that Russian army was using western tires a lot, nice to see Belarussians are having their slice.
Ok, I've seen someone claiming that Armata is a copy of AMX Leclerc, so is it safe to assume that Kurganets is a copy of AMX-10P and Bumerang is VBCI.. And Putin is a copy of Napoleon.

Boomerang is larger compared to the BTR-80, and most importantly - has a different layout. You may notice that the combat unit moved closer to the rear of the machine. Obviously, the engine moved to the front of the armored car, and it has a rear ramp"- said military expert Ilya Kramnik.

"Boomerang" - is not only an APC, it is a universal wheeled platform of middle weight category, created by LLC "Military-Industrial Company". In accordance with the tactical and technical requirements of the Ministry of Defence, it will be equipped with different combat modules that will perform the task of air defense, Anti Tank, Recon, evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield.

According to information from public sources, the latest Russian armored vehicle has undergone several incarnations before there was this vehicle that participates in the Victory Parade rehearsal. Initially, the project was called not "Boomerang" but "Gilza".

According to some reports, the project planned to use the maximum components of the BTR-90 Rostok. The Russian military abandoned the BTR-90, (according to one version) because it did not meet modern requirements. The project "Gilza" involved the installation of the engine in the middle of the vehicle, and the combat module would partially unify the weapons that are used on the BTR-82. It was also planned to install a lightweight APS.

The existence of Boomerang was first acknowledged in Oct 2010

The need to create a new armored personnel carriers, arose primarily due to lower mine-protection of previous models.

The old Soviet APCs have low mine protection, and it was impossible to raise the anti-mine protection sufficiently via modernization of older models. A new model was required. "Boomerang" protection level will be much higher. This is ensured by special shape of the bottom, the internal layout and in particular, suspension crew seats to the ceiling, "- said Ilya Kramnik.


There was also the need to increase the internal volume of the machine. "Soviet APCs are cramped inside. The average size of today's soldiers is bigger compared to the 1950/60's and flak jackets and vests were not widely used. It's a global trend of increasing armored personnel carriers and here we are just catching up".


According to unconfirmed information, officially, the new APC has a chance to become an armored vehicle equipped with active protection systems (KAZ). If these reports are correct, in terms of security "Boomerang" will be a leader among the wheeled armored personnel carriers, having protection against tank attack.


So far, very little is known about the combat unit of the new machine, in rehearsals in Alabino it is disguised. However, experts say there may be set a different set of weapons, depending on the tasks: machine gun mount for internal troops or remote module with a larger caliber weapons. It is known that on the basis of "Boomerang" is planned, even the creation of self-propelled artillery.



According to information from public sources, one of the possible weapon systems can be developed by JSC "Instrument Design Bureau" (CPP) in Tula combat module "Boomerang-BM" with a 30-mm gun with 500 rounds of ammunition, firing range of up to 4000 m, machine gun , automatic grenade launcher and "Kornet" missiles. Automatic fire control system module allows you to search purposes in different spectral bands using an optical locator to find camouflaged targets.

The Machines in Alabino are BTR version reportedly armed only with 12,7mm MG module.

Military experts believe that BTR "Boomerang" is equipped with modern control, reconnaissance and navigation equipment, including a single system of tactical control (ESU TK). The system provides the unit commander complete picture - the position of each machine during the battle, as well as data on the nature of their equipment damage.

http://www.arms-expo.ru/analytics/novye-razrabotki-/effekt-bumeranga-novyy-rossiyskiy-btr-otrazit-dazhe-tankovuyu-ataku/

Zivo wrote:

So, is the consensus that this is "Stardard" APS? And were the hell are the Kords at?

To be honest, even the most heavily armoured wheeled IFV (and its crew) is going to have a very bad day if engaged with anything more serious than a KPVT.

Hence, unless someone is actually going to release a wheeled IFV which integrates non-passive armouring options seen on current and prospective MBTs, I am going to treat the protection levels of such vehicles with suspicion, no matter whether they are BTR, VBCI, Boxer or Boomerang.

what's the armament of boomerang? turret looks small. KPVT ?

I think that the APCs for the entire 3 families have the 14.5 mm gun, and the IFVs have the 30mm gun.

I believe that later in time, and mabee it will take 5 years, the IFVs will have the 57mm gun, and the APCs will have the 45mm gun.

GarryB wrote:
Well the Typhoon will likely be 14.5mm ammo proof from all angles... the 25 ton class boomerang and kurganets should be 30mm proof at least from the front... the 18 ton BMP-3 already is...

GarryB wrote:
Add to that that the biggest threat to IFVs on the battlefield are RPGs and a decent APS would make them much safer.

GarryB wrote:
The Kurganets is heavier and better protected than a BMP-3, and the Boomerang has similar protection to the Kurganets...

Brovich wrote:Just created another Wikipedia article on the Epoch turret. THIS

Again, feel free to expand with sourced info.

Not so sure about Boomerang protection being similiar to Kurganets.

I just hope they will get ERA aswell, APS will not work always and ERA is very important.

GarryB wrote:

The BTR at 14 tons had lighter armour than the BMPs at up to 18 tons.

the boomerang and kurganets are both 25 ton class vehicles with the same turrets and weapons... why would they not have the same armour... they are both medium weight vehicles... the only difference will be mobility... in areas with good roading networks the wheeled vehicles have a huge advantage in mobility, while on soft swampy or deep snow/mud the tracks have the advantage.

GarryB wrote:
I suspect in combat they will have the side panel protection shown on the armata and kurganets... like the BTRs only get that slat armour attached when in combat zones.

I agree fully... they wont rely on just ERA or APS or indeed shtora 2 like systems and Nakidka protection suites, but a mix of all to improve protection over a range of threats.

Werewolf wrote:

GarryB wrote:
Well the Typhoon will likely be 14.5mm ammo proof from all angles... the 25 ton class boomerang and kurganets should be 30mm proof at least from the front... the 18 ton BMP-3 already is...

The Kurganetz 25 is already safe from front and side against 30mm API rounds, the applique armor is based on NII Stali development which they have used for BMD3 and BMP2/3 upgrades.

Here video of protection with NERA/ERA tiles against 30x165mm AP-I rounds, not detonating ERA but stoping bullets with NERA plates inside.

Werewolf wrote:

GarryB wrote:
Add to that that the biggest threat to IFVs on the battlefield are RPGs and a decent APS would make them much safer.

I just hope they will get ERA aswell, APS will not work always and ERA is very important.

Werewolf wrote:

GarryB wrote:
The Kurganets is heavier and better protected than a BMP-3, and the Boomerang has similar protection to the Kurganets...

Not so sure about Boomerang protection being similiar to Kurganets.

GarryB wrote:

Add to that that the biggest threat to IFVs on the battlefield are RPGs and a decent APS would make them much safer.

There are more big threats to the APCs/IFVs in the battlefield, and one of them is the under belly mines.
Against mines the best thing to do is to add bug and heavy armor-plate under the belly, or to use the Boomerang, in Iraq the American troops like the MRAP more than the Bradley.  
I guess the Boomerang as also extra armor at the belly. Add to that the “V” shape of the belly, and you might find that the Boomerang is much more protected then the Kurganets

I think that the APCs for the entire 3 families have the 14.5 mm gun, and the IFVs have the 30mm gun.

Unlikely. We have seen the 30mm turret and it doesn't penetrate into the hull... there would be no advantage to going to a 14.5mm weapon as it would not allow more troops to be carried, and besides an IFV needs a main gun that can defeat similar vehicles... that requires a 57 or 45mm gun and hull penetration which means reduced troop capacity.

Well there are several options. One option is the way I said it. Anther option is the way you said it. Anther option is that the vehicle with the 30mm turret is the APC, and the other one with the smaller turret that we don’t see the gun is maybe the IFV with the 57 mm gun, but the gun is not installed right now and maybe we will see it later. The small turret is because this turret penetrates the hall.

TR1 wrote:The grenades above the rear and under the turret can be clearly seen.

Now I am curious as to how they deploy.....pretty tucked position.

Fairly simple, we know that Kurganetz has applique armor which cover the entire side while Boomerang won't have such applique armor and the roadwheels are not really going to protect the side. The other point is that the Boomerang has a V-shaped hull, which thins out the interior, meaning thick side armor is doubtful. I highly doubt it is even close in protection to the Kurganetz.

Maybe that slim side armor above the wheels but everything else behind the wheels is protected like it is now, no additional armor or protection so lets hope for good APS and ERA where they can fit it.

After all, the SU had access to ERA that could be installed on light-armoured vehicles (successful tests of BMP ERA) and APS starting from the mid-80s Drozd, yet the Soviet Union's BTR/BMP armada was never equipped with such technologies.

Hence, I think (and I hope I am wrong) that the final armour option of Boomerang will comprise of an aluminium alloy/steel chassis (similar to BMP/BTR) with composite applique armour plates.

I agree. Even though the vehicles are in a similar weight class, the presence of NERA/ERA/APS on one and composite armour plates on the other render their respective defenses versus chemical/kinetic penetrators very different.

There are more big threats to the APCs/IFVs in the battlefield, and one of them is the under belly mines.
Against mines the best thing to do is to add bug and heavy armor-plate under the belly, or to use the Boomerang,

I guess the Boomerang as also extra armor at the belly. Add to that the “V” shape of the belly, and you might find that the Boomerang is much more protected then the Kurganets

Well there are several options. One option is the way I said it. Anther option is the way you said it. Anther option is that the vehicle with the 30mm turret is the APC, and the other one with the smaller turret that we don’t see the gun is maybe the IFV with the 57 mm gun, but the gun is not installed right now and maybe we will see it later. The small turret is because this turret penetrates the hall.

GarryB wrote:
They are the same weight class, so I would expect they would both have the same transmission and engine and of course they have the same crew stations and of course turrets will be the same... so if they are not as well armoured why would they be in the same 25 ton weight class?

they are both medium weight vehicles for medium brigades... the main difference is mobility.

GarryB wrote:
Just because we have not seen any skirt armour does not mean it wont have it...

GarryB wrote:
Actually tests with BMPs and especially BTRs were not that successful with ERA... which is why they invested lots of money in NERA, as even if the ERA stopped an incoming threat like an RPG the explosion often collapsed the armour on a BTR and did a lot of damage/injured crew etc.

GarryB wrote:
If anything the Boomerang would need better armour as it would likely be used in areas with good roads like urban areas, whereas the Kurganets would be used in swampy or areas of deep snow or mud.