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Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°751

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Fri May 31, 2019 2:32 pm

No they go the same speed, use the same Main Gun, the same CIWS, Anti-ship missiles,

The 220386 has 16AA Missiles verse the others 24 (20386 has better AA so I guess depends on if you want quality verse quantity)

I believe 20386 has better Torps.

But the 20386 offers more utility for the navy over the 11356, that's why for a ship that's going to have a 4-5 Displacement when fully loaded it is lightly armed because it also serves a utility purpose.

the price the 20386 is almost twice the price of the corvettes 20380/20385, 11356, and is very close to the price of the frigate 22350, to which the 20386 is significantly inferior in its combat capabilities. (yes this is confirmed, this is why some Russian's opposed the class)

It's a better ship overall then the 11356 but if your building one of these you could just pay a bit extra and get a 22350.

PapaDragon

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Post n°752

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Fri May 31, 2019 7:08 pm

Price is definitely in Gorshkov's favor

Could difference in crew complement be deciding factor?

There are no data for Mercury but Steregushi and Gremashi classes have crew of 90 and 100 respectively

Grigorevich has 200 and Gorshkov has 210 crew, that's more than twice as much paychecks, trainings and benefits especially now when Navy switched to all-professional force

Also, prices should go down for later hulls, last Steregushi was significantly cheaper than lead ship (someone posted numbers here but I can't remember where)

And could Mercuries be built in smaller shipyards like Pella or Amur?

In am leaning towards crew size being main argument although I could be wrong

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°753

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Fri May 31, 2019 8:13 pm

it's a myth if you keep building a ship the price somehow goes lower. It could drop based on other factors but it simply building them isn't what determines it, if I remember the reason that the last ship was so cheap is that the MOD was getting pissed off with the delays and problems so the Yard gave them a discount on the last one to appease the MOD. The shipyard barely broke even and may have lost money for that one hull.

I do remember we estimated the crew for the 20386 to be at least 50 percent bigger than the earlier types and the Ruskies complained a good size of guys were needed to man those things, it has a ton of specialist systems and modules that require much more crew and the increased size means it needs a bigger crew by default.

Another fault of the 20386 is when the modules not in use and the guys who operate them must always be kept on standby even when not in use which effectively limits where you can base the things.

Dock Wise? yeah, they have big enough dry docks if they have the right equipment, that I don't know.

AlfaT8

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Post n°754

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

AlfaT8 Fri May 31, 2019 8:25 pm

What?.. the Drezki?

OK, it's not really a bad idea, given it's range, but the fire power is just not there.
From what i have seen the current Drezki will be armed initially with Uran launchers, once they have UKSKs, then we could talk.

On top of that, what about upgrading the current Grigorovichs with an extra UKSK bin and Redut,
Yes, yes, its an old design, but if it ain't broken why replace it?

If Russia can get the price to match and the production time down with the Drezki, then replacement is obvious.
But until then, upgrading the Grigorovich might be the way to go for now.

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°755

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Fri May 31, 2019 8:29 pm

You have two trains of thought here.

1. Do you want a lightly armed frigate that has utility purpose and ability normal frigates do not.

2. Do you want just a standard frigate?.

There is nothing wrong with a frigate sized warship that is lightly armed but offers you various functions as opposed to a standard gunz gunz gunz ship.

The 20386's aren't going to be the main ships of the navy, they are being built to fill a specific purpose within the navy. Russia is still building normal frigates alongside the 20386's.

So everyone is winning here.

The Grig's where pure stop-gap measure, cheap and easy to produce at a time when Russia NEEDED the ships. Those things were only made because of that. Problem is if you start putting more expensive stuff in the ship it's going to make the ship much more expensive.

So then you create the argument. "Well it already costs this much let's just build one of these instead they are better"

At this point, Russia is trying to focus on Gorshkov's rather than an outdated design.

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°756

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:31 am

Exactly, if they want heavily armed frigates, they will have gorshkov, if they want something bigger a gorhkov-m frigate/destroyer,

and if they want light multipurpose modular frigate that can be easily adapted for different specialized roles, the 20386.

The 11356 can remain for export, like the american Oliver Perry frigate (but much better than that).

hoom

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Post n°757

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

hoom Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:19 am

PapaDragon wrote:
In what way it's not superior?
...
As for build speed it's already much faster than Grigorevich class, in case of fourth Grigorevich we can say it's infinitely faster

11356 has 8* UKSK permanently, simultaneously a helicopter vs maybe only 4* Kalibr & no chopper when those are carried.
11356 has 24* Buk3 equivalent SAM vs only 16* 9M96.
11356 has certainly older radar but they definitely work vs still unproven Zaslon.
11356 has proper 533mm torps (potential for Vodopod ASMs too) vs point defense Paket (albeit Paket may be more practical use).

Build speed of the 11356es hasn't been especially rapid but one of the Talwars was laid down to commissioned in about 3yrs.

PapaDragon

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Post n°758

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:20 am

hoom wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
In what way it's not superior?
...
As for build speed it's already much faster than Grigorevich class, in case of fourth Grigorevich we can say it's infinitely faster

11356 has 8* UKSK permanently, simultaneously a helicopter vs maybe only 4* Kalibr & no chopper when those are carried.
11356 has 24* Buk3 equivalent SAM vs only 16* 9M96.
11356 has certainly older radar but they definitely work vs still unproven Zaslon.
11356 has proper 533mm torps (potential for Vodopod ASMs too) vs point defense Paket (albeit Paket may be more practical use).

Build speed of the 11356es hasn't been especially rapid but one of the Talwars was laid down to commissioned in about 3yrs.

-UKSK on Grigorevich can't use Onyx anti-ship missiles, only Kalibr LACM (no required radar) and naval Kalibrs are becoming less of a priority since INF limitations are now gone

-9M96 is S-350/400 grade missile and is vastly superior to BUK equivalent

-They can't use old radars forever, time to move on, no point delaying the inevitable

-Main anti-sub weapon in this day and age is helicopter not torpedo and Paket can deal with submarines on top of being able to intercept torpedoes which is far more important

-As for build speed it's non-existent and nothing will change there, they will never again get engines for them so no point wasting time

Isos

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Post n°759

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:46 am

Gorshkov should replace Grigorovitch. Blue water ships should replace blue water ships. Corvette should replace corvettes.

-9M96 is S-350/400 grade missile and is vastly superior to BUK equivalent

No it isn't in this case. They only have the short range 40km 9m96 while last buk can have 70km range with ARH guidance. Such big missike could even go further as similar size missiles already go much further.

24 is always better than 16.

For ASW they also have the RBU that should intercept torpedoes very well and 533 mm tubes allows the use of anti sub missiles while uksk are full of antiship missiles.

Corvette are not a replacement for frigates.

Just like the "su-35 is good enough, no need for su-57" they come up with stupid reason to justify that they can't affoard those frigates.

hoom

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Post n°760

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

hoom Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:11 am

They only have the short range 40km 9m96

With Zaslon it will at least be able to make proper use of the shorter range 9M96.
And the Shtil-1 on 11356 is limited to 50km due to the firecontrol radar (absent any actual statements on the Active version) but yes 24 of them vs 16.
Both Redut & the Shtil-1 cells are supposed to be up for quad-pack 9M100 later if it ever eventuates.

UKSK on Grigorevich can't use Onyx anti-ship missiles, only Kalibr LACM (no required radar) and naval Kalibrs are becoming less of a priority since INF limitations are now gone

I'm unconvinced thats actually true, Talwars have Brahmos & 11356 does have an OTH radar.
At the least it should have Sizzler.

INF or not there's never going to be a point where you say 'I've got enough long range cruise-missiles & high-speed anti-ship missiles'.

medo

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Post n°761

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

medo Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:36 pm

20386 is a corvette comparing to frigate 11356, although it would be more correct to say, that 20386 is small frigate. Armament is the same as in 20385 Gremyashchy corvette. Small 9M96 missile for Russia have 60m km range, 40 km range have export missile. Bigger domestic 9M96 missile have range of 150 km, 120 km is for export one. It is unknown, if 20385 and 20386 corvettes will use long range 9M96 missiles or only medium range 9M96 missiles, but they will also use short range 9M100 missiles. Having only 16 Redut launchers comparing to 24 Buk launchers on 11356 frigates doesn't mean they will have less air defense missiles. 11356 frigates could carry only 24 Buk-M3 missiles, while 20385 and 20386 corvettes could carry a combination of medium and short range missiles. Optimal combination would be 8 9M96 medium/long range missiles and 32 9M100 short range missiles for self protection. Together this is 40 air defense missiles.

AlfaT8

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Post n°762

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

AlfaT8 Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:11 pm

SeigSoloyvov wrote:The Grig's where pure stop-gap measure, cheap and easy to produce at a time when Russia NEEDED the ships. Those things were only made because of that. Problem is if you start putting more expensive stuff in the ship it's going to make the ship much more expensive.

So then you create the argument. "Well it already costs this much let's just build one of these instead they are better"

At this point, Russia is trying to focus on Gorshkov's rather than an outdated design.

Yea, here's the thing, Russia still NEEDS the ships, stop-gap or not, they are still very useful, an upgraded variant would be more cost effective then a whole new build, that isn't even ready yet.
2x8 UKSKs and (if dimensions are similar) 2x12 Reduts, and bang, you got a budget Goshkov.

The only sticking point is the engines, which i have been hearing has been resolved.

This talk about stopping all production of the Grig with a plan to replace them with a ship that isn't even close to ready yet, is silly.
Especially giving how long it would take to get the Drezki ready, the Gorshkov took over a decade, many stated that it was because of the new technology in it, so why do we assume the all new Drezki wont suffer similar delays.

This is the same "Cancel Gorshkov and go for Super-Gorshkov" nonsense.

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°763

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:34 pm

You know the 20386 isn't replacing actual frigates right.....?

Is there some kinda confusion on this board about that? like for real Russia never said, they are stopping production of the frigates because of those ships...They are their OWN thing.

So you need to get that out of your head, they are not replacing frontline frigate with the 23086.

The Gorsh problems have been resolved IF the engine issue is fixed at this point it makes ZERO sense to order an outdated ship if you can build a newer and better one.

So I don't understand your issue are you complaining the Gorsh's take too long to build? well yes, I would agree they do but Russia ever since the collapse of the USSR has always been a snail at building ships for the most part minus very exceptions.

There is no reason to build Grig's a navy WILL NEVER ADVANCE if you keep building old crap.

I think you and everyone else needs to understand that, sooner or later you HAVE to move on.

The Grig's where a subpar frigate at best.

Isos

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Post n°764

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:13 pm

They are more than enough for closing the black sea to Nato and keeping turkish f-16 away.

If they get the last 3, they will have 6×8=48 ready to fire kalibr at any country in the middle east and eastern europe. With the caspian fleet bringing another salvo thanks to 3 buyan-M and 2 Guepard that means 5x8=40 kalibr more.

88 ready to fire kalibr is a very good bumber for such low number of missile boats and 2nd class frigates.

What they can also do is sell the 3 Grigorovitch that are waiting engines in order to upgrade the Slava cruiser with uksk and S-400 or buy a super gorshkov with the money.

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°765

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:32 pm

Fitting them with redut would mean changing totally the sensors and electronics associated to it.
Also adding another set of UKSK would mean further modifying the ship.
Russia does not produce the same engines, and they had to have India negotiate with the ukraine to get the powerplants for the last three grigorovich thst will be exported.

Yes they could adapt the 11356 to go with the newer gas turbines that saturn is.going to.produce, but that would mean delays to production of gorshkov and.anyway a possible.need of hull redesign and extensive testing for such 11356M. Meaning it will take more time and the cost will be increased.

This will not be anymore a cheap ship.
Much better to spend the money to build more gorshkov.

20386 is a different concept, but it can offer very interesting capabilities, and it is also a.testing ground for new concepts and new technologies (as it has been the case for gorshkov)

Anyway, probably the first serial ship will be better armed.than the mercury (first.20386), as it is typical for Russia

Furthermore, as missile launchers they can always use buyan-m and karakurts

Isos

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Post n°766

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:47 pm

Russia does not produce the same engines, and they had to have India negotiate with the ukraine to get the powerplants for the last three grigorovich thst will be exported.

India ordered 4 new Grigorovitch, 2 to be build (newly build) in Russia and 2 other in India. I don't think they are the ones waiting for engines but new ones.

Anyway, india is more than happy with them. They have their domestic produced Shivalik available for production, which uses the same weapons as Grigirovitch but also has israeli barak missiles and radars but yet order more Grigorovitch.

Weapons are the same but structure is not which means Grigorovitch are worth their money and are a very well build.

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°767

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:13 pm

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Fitting them with redut would mean changing totally the sensors and electronics associated to it.
Also adding another set of UKSK would mean further modifying the ship.
Russia does not produce the same engines, and they had to have India negotiate with the ukraine to get the powerplants for the last three grigorovich thst will be exported.

Yes they could adapt the 11356 to go with the newer gas turbines that saturn is.going to.produce, but that would mean delays to production of gorshkov and.anyway a possible.need of hull redesign and extensive testing for such 11356M. Meaning it will take more time and the cost will be increased.

This will not be anymore a cheap ship.
Much better to spend the money to build more gorshkov.

20386 is a different concept, but it can offer very interesting capabilities, and it is also a.testing ground for new concepts and new technologies (as it has been the case for gorshkov)

Anyway, probably the first serial ship will be better armed.than the mercury (first.20386), as it is typical for Russia

Furthermore, as missile launchers they can always use buyan-m and karakurts

Pretty much people fail to understand that, when you try and go to add newer components to a ship that was never designed with them in mind it requires redoing the entire ship.

Like you just don't take out the weapons and put new ones in and it works fine, that's not how it works.

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°768

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:15 pm

Isos wrote:

Russia does not produce the same engines, and they had to have India negotiate with the ukraine to get the powerplants for the last three grigorovich thst will be exported.

India ordered 4 new Grigorovitch, 2 to be build (newly build) in Russia and 2 other in India. I don't think they are the ones waiting for engines but new ones.

Anyway, india is more than happy with them. They have their domestic produced Shivalik available for production, which uses the same weapons as Grigirovitch but also has israeli barak missiles and radars but yet order more Grigorovitch.

Weapons are the same but structure is not which means Grigorovitch are worth their money and are a very well build.

So because India is happy using outdated frigates Russia should be to?

PapaDragon

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Post n°769

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:22 pm

Isos wrote:Gorshkov should replace Grigorovitch. Blue water ships should replace blue water ships. Corvette should replace corvettes...

Gorshkov IS replacing Grigorevich as well as Gremashi, Krivak, Neustrashimyy, Sovremenni and Udaloi classes, basically everything with big weapons

20386 Mercury is there to replace everything between frigates and missile ships (of which there will only be Karakurts left in production)

Three sizes, three ship classes that's the idea

Long range: Gorshkov (and derivatives)

Local and specific ops: Mercury

Short range and filler: Karakurt

medo

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Post n°770

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

medo Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:49 pm

No, neither Gorshkov, neither Gremyashchy, neither Merkury corvettes will replace Grigorovich frigates. Admiral Grigorovich class frigates will serve in Black Sea fleet, where they will work together with Buyan-M and Karakurt missile corvettes. Gorshkov frigates and 20386 Merkury corvettes will serve in Northern and Pacific fleets as blue water ships. 20385 Gremyashchy corvettes will serve in Pacific fleet together with standars 20380 Steregushy corvettes as green water patrol ships to protect the Okhotsk sea, Sakhalin and Kuril islands. Pacific fleet could also buy some 22160 and 23550 patrol ships.

Last edited by medo on Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

PapaDragon

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Post n°771

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:53 pm

medo wrote:No, neither Gorshkov, neither Gremyashchy, neither 20386 corvettes will replace Grigorovich frigates. Admiral grigorovich class frigates will serve in Black Sea fleet, where they will work together with Buyan-M and Karakurt missile corvettes. Gorshkov frigates and 20386 corvettes will serve in Northern and Pacific fleets as blue water ships. 20385 Gremyashchy corvettes will serve in Pacific fleet together with standars 20380 Steregushy corvettes as green water patrol ships to protect the Okhotsk sea, Sakhalin and Kuril islands. Pacific fleet could also buy some 22160 and 23550 patrol ships.

I am talking long term construction

Grigorevich, Buyan and other stuff already built will be staying in use of course but they will no longer be built once everything is sorted out with Gorshkovs, Mercuries and Karakurts

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°772

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:58 pm

Isos wrote:

Russia does not produce the same engines, and they had to have India negotiate with the ukraine to get the powerplants for the last three grigorovich thst will be exported.

India ordered 4 new Grigorovitch, 2 to be build (newly build) in Russia and 2 other in India. I don't think they are the ones waiting for engines but new ones.

Maybe I'm wrong but my understanding is that, of the last 3 grigorovich that were in construction for the russian black sea fleet,
the first two will instead be completed by yantar shipyard for the Indian navy,
the third hull will be towed in india and completed there, and the fourth ship will be build completely in India.

In the meanwhile the black sea fleet will receive mainly karakurts; they will possibly receive some gorshkov after at least a few ships will have gone first to the northern an Pacific fleet (unless Zaliv shipyard in Crimea will start producing gorshkov for the BSF).

Isos

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Post n°773

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:06 pm

Pretty much people fail to understand that, when you try and go to add newer components to a ship that was never designed with them in mind it requires redoing the entire ship

Launchers on Slava are externaly mounted, it's much easier to replace them than on Nakhimov.

Replacing cables should be an easy task for any shipyard.

Targeting radars can be adapted to electronic wiring of the old radars even if I'm pretty sure actual Slava's radar can provide targeting information for Kalibr and oniks with little upgrade to tge softwares.

So because India is happy using outdated frigates Russia should be to?

Since the ships are already build and only lack engines and knowing that the next 15 or 20 Gorshkovs will be send primarly to NF and PF, yes they should be happy with them.

medo

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Post n°774

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

medo Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:07 pm

PapaDragon wrote:

medo wrote:No, neither Gorshkov, neither Gremyashchy, neither 20386 corvettes will replace Grigorovich frigates. Admiral grigorovich class frigates will serve in Black Sea fleet, where they will work together with Buyan-M and Karakurt missile corvettes. Gorshkov frigates and 20386 corvettes will serve in Northern and Pacific fleets as blue water ships. 20385 Gremyashchy corvettes will serve in Pacific fleet together with standars 20380 Steregushy corvettes as green water patrol ships to protect the Okhotsk sea, Sakhalin and Kuril islands. Pacific fleet could also buy some 22160 and 23550 patrol ships.

I am talking long term construction

Grigorevich, Buyan and other stuff already built will be staying in use of course but they will no longer be built once everything is sorted out with Gorshkovs, Mercuries and Karakurts

No doubt. Buyan-M and Karakurts missile corvettes will serve together in Baltic and Black Sea fleets simply because Buyan-M is different sea-river going class. Caspian Buyan-M corvettes already sailed through Volga, canals and Don river to Black sea and Mediterranean sea to do their task and return back to Caspian sea. They could sail deep inside rivers and betveen the fleets through rivers and canals to multiply force, where needed. 12 Buyan-M corvettes will be enough for them.

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°775

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:30 pm

Isos wrote:

Pretty much people fail to understand that, when you try and go to add newer components to a ship that was never designed with them in mind it requires redoing the entire ship

Launchers on Slava are externaly mounted, it's much easier to replace them than on Nakhimov.

Replacing cables should be an easy task for any shipyard.

Targeting radars can be adapted to electronic wiring of the old radars even if I'm pretty sure actual Slava's radar can provide targeting information for Kalibr and oniks with little upgrade to tge softwares.

So because India is happy using outdated frigates Russia should be to?

Since the ships are already build and only lack engines and knowing that the next 15 or 20 Gorshkovs will be send primarly to NF and PF, yes they should be happy with them.

Apparently, these ships are going to India, 2 completed in yantar, and the last towed in india and completed there (plus a fourth build completely in India).
They would have been useful also in the black sea fleet, of course, but with the current situation they would not have received an engine for many years.

Furthermore, getting them out will free space and resources at yantar, that could be used to build additional LSTs or additional Gorshkovs.

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Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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