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Smocky Grigorovitch. Hope its not the engines but fuel that sucks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744
https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744
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Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich
Isos- Posts : 11592
Points : 11560
Join date : 2015-11-06
MiamiMachineShop- Posts : 111
Points : 115
Join date : 2019-04-09
https://news.rambler.ru/army/42139320-fregat-chernomorskogo-flota-admiral-grigorovich-sovershit-delovoy-zahod-v-port-limassol/
Admiral Grigorivich will make port call to Limassol in next days. It has performed a range of tasks in the Black Sea, a reliable ship with adequate capabilities. M90FRU would be overkill, but I wonder how fast the powerplant meant for Gorshkov could get this baby. Currently, 30 knots with DT-59 (UGT15000R) Zorya engines. With M90FRU maybe speeds of up to 35-37 knots?!?!?
Admiral Grigorivich will make port call to Limassol in next days. It has performed a range of tasks in the Black Sea, a reliable ship with adequate capabilities. M90FRU would be overkill, but I wonder how fast the powerplant meant for Gorshkov could get this baby. Currently, 30 knots with DT-59 (UGT15000R) Zorya engines. With M90FRU maybe speeds of up to 35-37 knots?!?!?
Rodion_Romanovic
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2644
Points : 2813
Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
even with much older electronics and radars I believe these ships are much more useful than 20380 oversized corvettes.MiamiMachineShop wrote:https://news.rambler.ru/army/42139320-fregat-chernomorskogo-flota-admiral-grigorovich-sovershit-delovoy-zahod-v-port-limassol/
Admiral Grigorivich will make port call to Limassol in next days. It has performed a range of tasks in the Black Sea, a reliable ship with adequate capabilities. M90FRU would be overkill, but I wonder how fast the powerplant meant for Gorshkov could get this baby. Currently, 30 knots with DT-59 (UGT15000R) Zorya engines. With M90FRU maybe speeds of up to 35-37 knots?!?!?
however I do not even know if these ships could host the combined diesel and gas turbine power plant meant for gorshkov class without a serious redesign, and in that case, until they have not mastered the serial production of such powerplants, engines for this ships would retard engines for gorshkov class.
Maybe if the new government of ukraine was less in self destruct mode, and they could get more engines from zorya...
these ships would also sell like hotcakes in the export market...
MiamiMachineShop- Posts : 111
Points : 115
Join date : 2019-04-09
Main propulsion plant of Project 11356 frigates is M7N1, using DS71 (known in Ukraine as UGT6000) as cruising engines, and boosters are DT59 (UGT16000). Efficiency of the latter one is only 30%.
M90FRU would be paired with M70FRU-2 cruising turbines which are analogues of UGT6000(DS71) cruise turbines of Zorya.
M90FRU is basically the Russian analogue of UGT 16000(DT-59), and they work in COGAG format as well as CODAG.
In CODAG(Gorshkov class) they are paired with 10D49 Kolomna Diesel cruise engines.
I could not find Gorshkov powerplant arrangement, but this is similar, cruising diesels coupled to bigger gearboxes, and M90FR instead of DA91 (this is M55 CODAG)
M70FRU produces 7200 RPM vs 7000 RPM of UGT 6000, temperature output is increased to 506 degrees over 440 degrees for UGT6000. Efficiency is improved by .2%.
Kolomna 10D49 give Gorshkov 5200SHP in cruise mode. Combined with M90FRU Gorshkov gets to 65,400 SHP
The DS71(UGT6000) gives 11356 cruising power of 8450SHP. M70FRU-2 offers even more power, This is much better performance than 10D49. With M90FR , 11356 will be faster than 22350. Its speed can approach speeds of 37 knots maybe even faster when the powerplants are ready.
COGAG > CODAG for speed performance
CODAG > COGAG for reliability, diesels are workhorses
No need for Zorya, NPO/UEC will have M90FRU, M70FRU-2, Agregat-DKVP will be new series of MGT. Agregat DKVP will be cruising turbines for LCAC's like Zubr. 11356 will sell like hotcakes when powerplants are ready
You can see output shaft on M90FR picture, they will couple to input shaft on gearbox which are coupled to prop shaft, and cruising diesels this is for 22350:
M90FRU would be paired with M70FRU-2 cruising turbines which are analogues of UGT6000(DS71) cruise turbines of Zorya.
M90FRU is basically the Russian analogue of UGT 16000(DT-59), and they work in COGAG format as well as CODAG.
In CODAG(Gorshkov class) they are paired with 10D49 Kolomna Diesel cruise engines.
I could not find Gorshkov powerplant arrangement, but this is similar, cruising diesels coupled to bigger gearboxes, and M90FR instead of DA91 (this is M55 CODAG)
M70FRU produces 7200 RPM vs 7000 RPM of UGT 6000, temperature output is increased to 506 degrees over 440 degrees for UGT6000. Efficiency is improved by .2%.
Kolomna 10D49 give Gorshkov 5200SHP in cruise mode. Combined with M90FRU Gorshkov gets to 65,400 SHP
The DS71(UGT6000) gives 11356 cruising power of 8450SHP. M70FRU-2 offers even more power, This is much better performance than 10D49. With M90FR , 11356 will be faster than 22350. Its speed can approach speeds of 37 knots maybe even faster when the powerplants are ready.
COGAG > CODAG for speed performance
CODAG > COGAG for reliability, diesels are workhorses
No need for Zorya, NPO/UEC will have M90FRU, M70FRU-2, Agregat-DKVP will be new series of MGT. Agregat DKVP will be cruising turbines for LCAC's like Zubr. 11356 will sell like hotcakes when powerplants are ready
You can see output shaft on M90FR picture, they will couple to input shaft on gearbox which are coupled to prop shaft, and cruising diesels this is for 22350:
Last edited by MiamiMachineShop on Tue May 07, 2019 10:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
MiamiMachineShop- Posts : 111
Points : 115
Join date : 2019-04-09
Isos wrote:Smocky Grigorovitch. Hope its not the engines but fuel that sucks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744
EXHAUST smoke emission from high pressure ratio gas turbine engines currently in service has been reduced largely by attention to fuel air mixing in the combustion chamber. The proportion of produced carbon which can be burned in high temperature regions of the chamber will increase as both combustion maximum and turbine entry temperatures increase.
Smoke is normal, especially white smoke, the ship looks like its at idle, or switching from LP Turbine to HP turbine, during this process when the ship goes into low idle on DS-71 and switches to DT-59 it will produce smoke due to carbon production in high temperature regions (DS71) which are being powered down and simultaneously DT-59 is powered on.
GarryB- Posts : 40487
Points : 40987
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
That level of smoke is pretty mild I would think... I mean compared with some Japanese ships and US super modern boats...
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Perfect silhouette
MiamiMachineShop- Posts : 111
Points : 115
Join date : 2019-04-09
Admiral Istomin, Kornilov and Butakov
https://www.janes.com/article/84129/india-signs-usd950-million-deal-for-two-russian-built-frigates
They could chicken out and we could see these in baltic fleet maybe?
GarryB- Posts : 40487
Points : 40987
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Would be better if they used the money to buy bigger versions... even if they take a little longer.
Tingsay- Posts : 183
Points : 185
Join date : 2016-12-09
MiamiMachineShop wrote:
Admiral Istomin, Kornilov and Butakov
https://www.janes.com/article/84129/india-signs-usd950-million-deal-for-two-russian-built-frigates
They could chicken out and we could see these in baltic fleet maybe?
No chance I think.
India's supposedly better ship, Shivalik class has some major issues (forgot the details) and that is why they are going for Grigorovich.
Shivalik stopped at just 3 ships without any sanctions like in Grigos.
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
They had some kind of major drydock incident & 4th is fubarred from rumors -> suddenly the 11356 order firmed up.
I still say they should put the effort in to get domestic engine/gearbox going and finish 6* for BSF plus new 6* for Pacific/split appropriately as fleets fill with them/other new ships.
Maybe another 3* allowing for Latakia too. (but that could be part of the re-balancing as new ships are built)
I still say they should put the effort in to get domestic engine/gearbox going and finish 6* for BSF plus new 6* for Pacific/split appropriately as fleets fill with them/other new ships.
Maybe another 3* allowing for Latakia too. (but that could be part of the re-balancing as new ships are built)
Last edited by hoom on Fri May 10, 2019 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Admin- Posts : 2926
Points : 3798
Join date : 2009-07-10
GarryB wrote:That level of smoke is pretty mild I would think... I mean compared with some Japanese ships and US super modern boats...
The level of smoke is not the issue, the issue is if it is black as that means unburnt carbon is coming out of the funnels. In the case of US and Japanese ships it is a case of incompetent engineers that don't monitor the air mixtures. In the case of older Russian ships it is lack of maintenance that has allowed carbon buildup. In the case of newer Russian ships it is the same as the US, incompetent engineers.
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Essen at Istanbul for defense show via reddit.
Interesting that they are apparently starring the missile launchers?!
Interesting that they are apparently starring the missile launchers?!
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Zorya Mashproject has sent 4* turbines 'to India' https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3650451.html
Assumption is that they're going to India via Kaliningrad. (or India -> Kaliningrad -> India)In March 2019, four M7N-1E gas-turbine units manufactured by the Nikolaevsk State Scientific-Production Complex “Zorya” - “Mashproekt” (two for each frigate, project 11356), with a customs value $ 18.612 million were exported by sea to India.
kumbor- Posts : 313
Points : 305
Join date : 2017-06-09
Isos wrote:Smocky Grigorovitch. Hope its not the engines but fuel that sucks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1117721658075295744
You mean SMOKEY, for SMOCKY is a kind of a WORKERS SUIT?!
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2644
Points : 2813
Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/
Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356
May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. This was announced on Thursday, May 30, by the head of the shipbuilding, armament and operation department of the Navy Vladimir Tryapichnikov at the ceremony of launching the minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov of the project 12700 (cipher "Alexandrite").
Multi-purpose corvettes of project 20386 were developed at the Almaz Central Design Bureau. They are intended for conducting combat operations in the near and far sea zone, protection of sea communications and objects of maritime economic activity.
The ships with a displacement of 3,400 tons (length - 109 meters) will arm the 100-mm art complex A-190-01, two 30-mm gun mounts AK-630M, the “Redut” air defense system, two launchers of the anti-submarine complex “Package-NK” and high-precision cruise missiles "Caliber" (or RCC "Uranus"). Also, the Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter can be based on the corvette.
The lead ship of the project 20386 was laid at the Severnaya Verf on September 28, 2016. Initially it was called the "Bold", but in 2019 the military decided to rename the corvette to "Mercury" - in honor of the Russian brig. It is planned to be launched in the spring of 2021.
Now in the Russian Navy, three frigates of the project 11356 are serving - "Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov . The construction of the second trio of ships of this project froze after the disruption of the gas turbine power plants of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt. The
displacement of the frigates of the project 11356 is 4000 tons, the speed is 30 knots, the autonomy of navigation is 30 days. The armament consisted of: A-190 100 mm caliber artillery, anti-aircraft missile and artillery systems, torpedo and anti-submarine weapons, as well as the Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. Deck-based Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopter.
littlerabbit- Posts : 235
Points : 235
Join date : 2017-07-03
Location : Serbia
Replacement?! It looks like this is the end for project 11356 production...at least for Russian Navy.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/
Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356
May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. This was announced on Thursday, May 30, by the head of the shipbuilding, armament and operation department of the Navy Vladimir Tryapichnikov at the ceremony of launching the minesweeper Vladimir Yemelyanov of the project 12700 (cipher "Alexandrite").
Multi-purpose corvettes of project 20386 were developed at the Almaz Central Design Bureau. They are intended for conducting combat operations in the near and far sea zone, protection of sea communications and objects of maritime economic activity.
The ships with a displacement of 3,400 tons (length - 109 meters) will arm the 100-mm art complex A-190-01, two 30-mm gun mounts AK-630M, the “Redut” air defense system, two launchers of the anti-submarine complex “Package-NK” and high-precision cruise missiles "Caliber" (or RCC "Uranus"). Also, the Ka-27 or Ka-29 helicopter can be based on the corvette.
The lead ship of the project 20386 was laid at the Severnaya Verf on September 28, 2016. Initially it was called the "Bold", but in 2019 the military decided to rename the corvette to "Mercury" - in honor of the Russian brig. It is planned to be launched in the spring of 2021.
Now in the Russian Navy, three frigates of the project 11356 are serving - "Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov . The construction of the second trio of ships of this project froze after the disruption of the gas turbine power plants of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt. The
displacement of the frigates of the project 11356 is 4000 tons, the speed is 30 knots, the autonomy of navigation is 30 days. The armament consisted of: A-190 100 mm caliber artillery, anti-aircraft missile and artillery systems, torpedo and anti-submarine weapons, as well as the Caliber-NK long-range cruise missiles. Deck-based Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopter.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/
Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356
May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. ............
Makes sense, 20386 has same range and endurance plus more advanced hull, propulsion and subsystems
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2644
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[quote="littlerabbit"]
It's not a big problem. They want to unify most of the weapon systems and sensors in the new ships.
Grigorovich are not bad ships, but they have at least one generation older technology than 2038x. Furthermore the 20386, differently from the 20380, will have the endurance for blue water operations.
Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/
Replacement?! It looks like this is the end for project 11356 production...at least for Russian Navy.
Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356
It's not a big problem. They want to unify most of the weapon systems and sensors in the new ships.
Grigorovich are not bad ships, but they have at least one generation older technology than 2038x. Furthermore the 20386, differently from the 20380, will have the endurance for blue water operations.
Big_Gazza- Posts : 4882
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PapaDragon wrote:Rodion_Romanovic wrote:https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/
Corvettes of the project 20386 called full replacement frigates of the project 11356
May 30, 2019 at 13:52 Topic: Industry
In the Russian Navy, the project 20386 corvettes will be able to fully replace the frigates of Project 11356. ............
Makes sense, 20386 has same range and endurance plus more advanced hull, propulsion and subsystems
..plus the 11356 was AFAIK mostly a lower-tech insurance policy against a failed 22350 program. The Gorshkov is a success (even if very late...), so will form the backbone of the future fleet, so its time to close out the Grigs and sell them to India to boost their Krivak IV/Talwar numbers.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
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Big_Gazza wrote:...
..plus the 11356 was AFAIK mostly a lower-tech insurance policy against a failed 22350 program. The Gorshkov is a success (even if very late...), so will form the backbone of the future fleet, so its time to close out the Grigs and sell them to India to boost their Krivak IV/Talwar numbers.
It wasn't even insurance policy, it was improved Soviet design geared for export which was used as last minute backup solution in an emergency
Gorshkovs are finally up and running and will only be getting bigger which means that 20386 Mercury will be filling the role of medium sized vessel for local anti-sub missions 90% of the time or act as AA support for other ships further away rest of the time (they have extra Redut slots and same range and endurance as Gorshkovs and I doubt it's by accident)
With more Karakurts being ordered soon final setup for Navy size-wise is Karakurts=>Mercuries=>Gorshkovs
No other sizes in between those
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Same size, same cost & arguably inferior capabilities.
Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.
Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.
GunshipDemocracy- Posts : 6164
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hoom wrote:Same size, same cost & arguably inferior capabilities.
Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.
perhaps building first for longer time and remove problems is better then building series then thinking why it doesnt work like Zumwalts
hoom- Posts : 2352
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Yes but they're just building the bare hull at the moment.
Its a full 3D digital design which should make the actual fitting-out much quicker than conventional, Redut is a known system, Zaslon isn't entirely new now that Gremy is on trials & most of the rest should be containerised -> not need extensive fit-out (but a bunch of trials once complete -> desirability of progressing the construction quickly)
Its a full 3D digital design which should make the actual fitting-out much quicker than conventional, Redut is a known system, Zaslon isn't entirely new now that Gremy is on trials & most of the rest should be containerised -> not need extensive fit-out (but a bunch of trials once complete -> desirability of progressing the construction quickly)
PapaDragon- Posts : 13463
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hoom wrote:Same size, same cost & arguably inferior capabilities.
Fine if they actually start pumping the 20386es out but man nearly 3yrs and an incomplete empty hull is all they have on the 1st is not a good harbinger for quick production.
In what way it's not superior? Grigorevich is slapped together with export gear, Mercury is designed around new stuff
Superior sonar, superior radar, superior AA system, superior propulsion, lower RCS, modular hull, etc... Am I missing something?
As for build speed it's already much faster than Grigorevich class, in case of fourth Grigorevich we can say it's infinitely faster