INS Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

So what you are actually saying is that India doesn't need anything quickly or urgently...

India has shown it can spend money when it is prepared to... half a billion dollars for a transport plane!

The question is why all the complaints about this cheap carrier before they even know what it looks like.

Lets face it, it isn't even really just a carrier and an air wing, it includes training facilities as the Soviets had in Saki which is now in the Ukraine and the Russians are currently renting.

At the end of the day there were several reasons the Indians wanted this ship... including so the Chinese couldn't buy it for scrap and then turn it into a carrier too.

The irony is that unlike transport planes, carriers are expensive... there is a reason why Britain probably wont be able to afford two carriers and may try to strike up a deal with France... the purpose of buying two carriers was so one could be in refit or overhaul and the other would be available for use, but now they might have to sell their second new carrier... does India want to spend 6 billion on a carrier with no aircraft? Britain will tell you when you can use it and who you can use it against.

GarryB wrote:So what you are actually saying is that India doesn't need anything quickly or urgently...

Ofcourse it does but the whole RFI ,RFP thing along with bureaucratic red tape and the need to avoid being labeled as corruption involved , means people take decision very slowly and no one wants to take the risk when it comes to big ticket purchase , so though India does need some weapon system urgently it wont get it due to many reasons.

India has shown it can spend money when it is prepared to... half a billion dollars for a transport plane!

Well yes the C-17 deal is the most quickest deal i have seen in past 2 decades that India made , thats becuase there was some quid-pro-quo involved between India and US , where US supported India with NSG clearance in 123 deal and in return India promised it would buy arms from US.

Even Condi Rice has mentioned of such a quid-pro-quo arrangement in here newest book.

The question is why all the complaints about this cheap carrier before they even know what it looks like.

The complain is not about cheap carrier but the fact that Russia went back on the original deal and renegotiated it , most indians feel let down there. Although there were technical reason beyond Russia and India control but many feel it should have been done earlier.

Russia could have easily charged $5 billion in original deal for carrier and aircraft and we wouldnt have complained , infact they should have done that considering we are spending $500 million for C-17 and $40 million for M2K upgrade.

The Indian Navy cheif is on record stating that he will willing to get a blank cheque to any one who can buy a Carrier at less the cost of what Russia has offered.

I think Russia should just change its tactics ask for similar to western price but slightly less but deliver on time and quality will keep both sides happy , Russia gets substantially more money and india gets quality goods on time.

Well yes the C-17 deal is the most quickest deal i have seen in past 2 decades that India made , thats becuase there was some quid-pro-quo involved between India and US , where US supported India with NSG clearance in 123 deal and in return India promised it would buy arms from US.

Even Condi Rice has mentioned of such a quid-pro-quo arrangement in here newest book.

You make it sound like it is not corruption...

The complain is not about cheap carrier but the fact that Russia went back on the original deal and renegotiated it , most indians feel let down there. Although there were technical reason beyond Russia and India control but many feel it should have been done earlier.

Both sides made an agreement based on what they believed was the situation with the ship.
Once the ship was opened however it became clear that reality was something completely different.

Now the Russians could simply have ignored the state of the piping and cabling and completed on time and given you what you were paying for.

You can stick to paying 1.6 billion for a dog of a ship that will have endless problems till you strip it right back and do it right from the start.

The complaint then would be the ship is a dog, to which your friends... the Russians will say you got exactly what you paid for.

Having the ship sit from 1997 till 2004 without any assurance of a sale probably led to serious degradation of the ship... with no assurances till it was signed that India even wanted it would mean little or no money could be justified for maintaining what could well just be scrap for China.


If you spend a couple of days negotiating me painting your house and when we finally agree on the price and I start work stripping back the old paint and find dry rot and termites, will you be happy with me just painting over with a nice fresh coat of paint or two because you agreed to pay for the paint but not to replace rotten wood or insect infestation? ...in 2 years the house is falling down... but it was cheap.

At the end of the day both sides underestimated the costs and it ended up costing more and taking longer than expected initially, but as I have said... if it really was important then you could have simply pushed it through like the useless purchase of C-17s at ridiculous prices as a reward for some political favour.

Russia could have easily charged $5 billion in original deal for carrier and aircraft and we wouldnt have complained , infact they should have done that considering we are spending $500 million for C-17 and $40 million for M2K upgrade.

Which clearly shows the extra cost is not the problem... they tried to offer you a give away price, but after finding it would cost more than both sides had anticipated they asked for more money to cover their costs so they weren't out of pocket with the deal.

Instead of thanking them you complain that they should have gouged you with the price in the first place...

If they demanded 5 billion in the first place it would be in China being rebuilt as a new carrier and whomever India finally decided to build them a brand new carrier will be giving excuses about why it has taken so long and is over price and now you will start your 20 year program to decide what fighter you will put on board.

The Indian Navy cheif is on record stating that he will willing to get a blank cheque to any one who can buy a Carrier at less the cost of what Russia has offered.

Exactly... you are getting it as cheaply as possible, and your complaint is not that it is too expensive, but that they changed the price.

[I think Russia should just change its tactics ask for similar to western price but slightly less but deliver on time and quality will keep both sides happy , Russia gets substantially more money and india gets quality goods on time.

Russia is going for high tech and state of the art, so prices will not remain so low. The question about delivery time... apart from this one deal and of course the Nerpa... both of which were for reasons beyond Russias control, can you tell us about other programs that are delayed by those tardy Russians?

Lets just say that in 2001 the UK decided to go with STOVL F-35s for their new carriers... in 2010 they changed their mind and are ordering the cheaper CATOBAR model and they expect their first carrier in.... 2016... the two carriers will cost about 6 billion pounds but that doesn't include their air wing and they wont have a full air wing for a decade after they enter service!

Talk about problems...

India doesn't have a huge number of contracts with the US but I understand a few American radars India operates don't work because of support problems...

The issue was Sevmash incompetence (greed on the part of some head people) in correctly assesing how much work needed to be done. Russian gov burned them for it later. Short of a huge price increase, no way the carrier could have been delivered on the original date.

They were desperate for work... it is in their interests to give a positive assessment.

When the Indians inspected the ship they didn't contradict the Sevmash assessment or demand an independent assessment.

Sounds to me like neither side suspected there were problems.

At the end of the day if the Indians were so upset about the change in the contract they could simply have walked away... asked for their money back and handed over any aircraft that had already been transferred, and Russia could have decided whether to continue or scrap it and sell the hulk to China.

The facts are that they agreed that it needed the extra money spent on it and eventually they agreed to pay it and accept the delays for the extra work needed.

B!tching about it it pointless.

Even in 2004 they were desperate for work... now I suspect they are desperate to get it out of the dock because they have other work to get on with.

If the Indians had rejected it and it was still in Russian hands by 8 8 8 then likely they would have kept it and probably converted it to a nuke and put in most of the sorts of systems they will be putting into the K in 2013-2018.

INS Vikramaditya, India’s second aircraft carrier, has set sail on comprehensive sea trials.

The extensively modernised Soviet-era carrier Admiral Gorshkov is scheduled to be delivered to the Navy this year-end after much delay. It set off from the Sevmash shipyard in the northern port city of Severodvinsk on the White Sea, official sources said here.

“A team of Indian Navy officials, technical experts and pilots is on board the aircraft carrier which is now undergoing aviation facilities trials,” officials said. All tests are being carried out by the Russian crew and staff. The Indian team is monitoring the tests and trials, they said. The aircraft carrier, which can easily hold about 30 fighters and helicopters, is now sailing in the Barents Sea.

During the trials, INS Vikramaditya will undergo “a full range of sea-going tests” and aviation facilities like take-offs and landings of fighters such as MIG 29K flown by Russian pilots. “Touch and go exercises by fighters are on and various other flight profiles are also being undertaken,” officials said, indicating that it was a “critical” pre-delivery phase for the aircraft carrier.

canany1 tell me what is the final cost of this ship and are the Mig29 included in the cost .

a small video of this deal

Code:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO5wmqwRKLY&feature=related

at first the ship looked like junk ,but the russians have done a great job now this ship is like a new bride

The initial price from memory was 1.4 billion, which included 7-800 million for the air component which included 16 Mig-29Ks with options for up to 30 more, plus Ka-27 and Ka-31 helicopters.

The final price was $2.4 billion, which is still a cheap carrier when you factor in that it includes the air component.

a new Aircraft carrier cost around $3 billion , even with the air components i think $2.4 bill was over priced .

and do u think it was wise to on india's part to remove the missiles from the front deck and install a skijump ?

and is it right that only 1 aircraft can take off at a time ,

It is a good price for a carrier of that size + air wing....and consider than supposedly the Gorshkov deal was tied to India getting Russian assistance on the nuclear submarine + ballistic missile construction as well as the Nerpa lease.

a new Aircraft carrier cost around $3 billion , even with the air components i think $2.4 bill was over priced .

A new carrier would cost 3 billion without airwing... and if it was a new carrier they would likely buy Naval Rafales or F-35s, which means the air wing would likely cost more than the carrier.

and do u think it was wise to on india's part to remove the missiles from the front deck and install a skijump ?

Yes, absolutely. In its original configuration it could only operate VSTOL aircraft like the Forgers... this is VERY limiting in terms of air power.

With the introduction of Brahmos to the Indian Navy, they don't need big heavy missiles taking up deck space on their carriers.

and is it right that only 1 aircraft can take off at a time ,

Hahaha... who told you that?

I would expect there would be a similar arrangement to the Kuznetsov... two planes side by side from slightly different angles taking off the skijump with another aircraft about 3/4ths down the deck for heavier load takeoffs.

One aircraft taking off at a time but three ready for take off spots allowing fairly rapid launch of aircraft.

NEW DELHI: Delivery of the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov to the Indian Navy has been further delayed by several months because of technical troubles with its engines detected during the ongoing sea trials.

Originally meant to be delivered to India in 2008, the carrier, renamed INS Vikramaditya, was to be given by December this year under the revised schedule.

However, latest inputs from Navy sources here and reports from Russia said that delivery of the carrier may now take place only by the second half of 2013. This will delay the Indian Navy's plans to have a carrier battle group around the Gorshkov.

A Navy source said the delay could be about six months, but indications are that it could be almost as much as a year. "There is some issue with boilers. The ship has been sailing for 90 days, undergoing sea trials. It is still sailing on its own power," a Navy source said. The aviation trials aboard the carrier, with MIG-29K fighters, is also going on as scheduled, sources said. There have been 40 sorties from the ship so far.

Russian daily Kommersant reported that three of the eight boilers of the 44,500-tonne ship were detected to be malfunctioning and they were not able to reach their full capability. The report said the aircraft carrier would be ready for delivery only by October 2013. Under the existing plan, the carrier was to be handed over to the Indian Navy by December 4.

Sources said the ship would now be brought back to Sevmash shipyard for detailed examination and repair works. Russian media report said the boilers were malfunctioning because they avoided using asbestos, on India's insistence, for protection from heat.

The latest delay is the fresh twist in the long, and often controversial, Indian effort to acquire Admiral Gorshkov, one of the last carriers built by the Soviet Union and which had been lying idle since 1996. India and Russia signed a contract in 2004 for repair and overhaul of the carrier. The $947 million deal was renegotiated to $2.3 billion much later, despite many protesting the huge hike in contract price.

The fresh setback to the delivery of the carrier will significantly delay Indian Navy's plan to have a carrier battle group each on the east and west coast of the country. The only operational carrier of the Navy, INS Viraat, is in the last leg of its service and is only partially effective.

The Navy had planned to induct Gorshkov and the 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC), under construction in Kochi, over the next several months to build the carrier groups around them. The original plan was to have the two carrier groups by 2015.

Besides the latest delay in Gorshkov's delivery, Navy estimates that the IAC delivery would be at least three years behind the schedule and would be available only by 2018

this is really bad news .
i have heard atleast 7 out of the 8 boilers are not working at high speeds ,

The Vikramaditya, formerly the Russian Navy's Admiral Gorshkov, was to have been handed over to India on December 4 after ongoing sea trials following a much-delayed refit that has gone massively over-budget. The deadline has now been postponed again until October 2013.

The problems started when the carrier tried to gain maximum speed.

“Seven out of eight steam boilers of the propulsion machinery were out of order,” an official told Kommersant.


Read more about Vikramaditya
The official, who prepared the Vikramaditya for sea trials, said the reason for the boilers’ failure was that India refused to use asbestos to protect the boilers from heat, fearing that the material was dangerous for the crew.

He said the boilers’ designer had to use firebrick, which proved not sufficiently heatproof.

India and Russia signed a $947 million dollar deal in 2005 for the purchase of the carrier, but delivery has already been delayed twice, pushing up the cost of refurbishing the carrier to $2.3 billion.

Sevmash shipyard director Vladimir Pastukhov was fired in 2007 over his poor management of the project.

3 out of the 8 boilers had issues, but the ship can move under its own power just fine.
Special commission being formed to solve the ceramic boiler problem.

what i am wondering is why would it take 1 more yr to fix this issue , this was supposed to be a good will gesture from russia to india ,but it has only created more problems within 2 countries . also it doesnt make any sense india getting this carrier , cuz india is making its own which will be much bigger then this , so the pilots who land on the vishal will find gorshkov to short to land ,,,
cuz vishal will have more space to land ,and pilots who get used to that wont be able to land on gorskkov

so the pilots who land on the vishal will find gorshkov to short to land ,,,
cuz vishal will have more space to land ,and pilots who get used to that wont be able to land on gorskkov

Pilots landing on carriers don't land conventionally... the landing distance for Gorshkov wont be much different than for any other carrier... basically you either hit the cable and are stopped by the tail hook, or you miss the cable and go around... it is the same for any CTOL carrier... extra deck length makes no difference at all.

I also take exception to both those articles... the original price for the carriers was 700 million but with the price of the air wing included it was 1.4 billion. The price going up to 2.3 billion is no where near the 10 billion India are now paying extra for their 126 Rafales.

The Indian carrier made in India is going to be 3 years late too, because they couldn't get the type of steel they needed, so welcome to the world of carrier production.

thanks for ur insight Gary , ur logic about the arresting cables makes sense ,

and the thing about the price , there is a lot of confusion in the minds of india public . most of them dont know what was the real price and why we r paying 2.3 billion right now . and to be frank if i had not found this forum , even i would have not got the correct information , most of the news channels also dont give a clear picture . cuz the indian public doesnt really know all the fine details about this deals and the india media misleading . u see this will effect the relations for people to people . i have been reading a lot of india news websites and if u look at the comments made by india they are very negative towards russia cuz of this deal .... so i really hope that russia delivers this Aircraft carrier very soon and get this thing over with .

TR1 wrote:3 out of the 8 boilers had issues, but the ship can move under its own power just fine.
Special commission being formed to solve the ceramic boiler problem.

It could be the problem can be solved much sooner than April 2013.

Those boilers where subjected to testing under conditions subjected by military.

Besides there is no ship of that size which did not have some sort of problems, its only matter how much is that secret guarded well.

so i really hope that russia delivers this Aircraft carrier very soon and get this thing over with .

I don't care if it is 5 years late, what I care about is that they don't hand over to India a dog that has problem after problem because it was not tested properly because the customer wanted it now... not looking at any company in particular... MICROSOFT!!!!

I look at it like I looked at Duke Nukem... when it is ready.

At the local Turkish shop the guy behind the counter always apologises because the hot chips take about 10 minutes, whereas most of the other food is already to be put together and served and is much quicker.

The thing is I ordered hot chips, so I don't want them half cooked... so I have to wait.

I don't buy his chips because they are cheap or fast... I buy them because I think they taste the best.

Keep in mind that the problem might not actually be with the boilers... they talk about India refusing asbestos insulation, which suggests that the 3 boilers they are not able to operate at full capacity are near something that needs to be separated from the heat the boilers generate.

Perhaps they just need new and better insulation material, or to move the things that are getting overheated when the boilers run at full capacity.

thanks guys for ur inputs , cant wait to get this ship in india

NEW DELHI: India will 'strongly' take up with Russia the delay in delivery of aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, the refurbished Admiral Gorshkov, asking it to deploy additional manpower to ensure the large warship's 'refit package' is completed within six-seven months.

Defence minister A K Antony will stress this to his visiting Russian counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov during the 12th meeting of India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) here on Thursday, said sources.

The delivery of the already much-delayed Vikramaditya was to take place on December 9, as per the re-revised timeline, but crippling engine-boiler malfunctions during the carrier's recent sea trials have put paid to the plan. It has been a double whammy for the Navy as far as its long-standing ambition to deploy two operational carrier battle groups (CBGs) by 2015 was concerned. First, delivery schedule of the 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) being built at Cochin Shipyard was pushed to 2018.

And now, it's certain the 44,570-tonne Vikramaditya will not be ready for induction anytime before end-2013 at the earliest. So, India will have to soldier on with its solitary carrier, the over 50-year-old 28,000-tonne INS Viraat, for the foreseeable future. This when China has recently commissioned its first aircraft carrier, the 65,000-tonne Liaoning, and the US seeks to 'rebalance' six of its 11 potent CBGs towards Asia-Pacific.

"We will tell the Russians to step up the workforce at the Sevmash shipyard for the refit-repair of Vikramaditya. A leeway of three to four months is provided in the contract after the December delivery date...Beyond that, penalty clauses and liquidity damages could kick in,'' said a source.

India has already paid $2.33 billion for Vikramaditya's refit, instead of the original $974 million earmarked in the January 2004 contract under which the carrier was to be delivered by August, 2008. New Delhi is spending another $2 billion to induct 45 Russian MiG-29K naval fighters to operate from the decks of Vikramaditya and IAC.

During the delegation-level talks on Thursday, India and Russia will also discuss ongoing projects for 272 Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 1,657 T-90S main-battle tanks. While IAF has so far inducted 160 Sukhois towards getting all 272 by 2018 at a cost of over $12 billion, transfer of technology (ToT) problems continue to plague the T-90S tanks. India had first ordered 310 tanks for Rs 3,625 crore in 2001, then another 347 for Rs 4,900 crore in 2007. But indigenous manufacture of another 1,000 T-90S tanks has been painfully slow, with the Army having just about 710 of the tanks so far. While Russia will remain India's largest defence supplier for many years, Moscow's tendency to delay deliveries and ToT, jack up costs midway and faulty product support has forced New Delhi to increasingly look at countries like Israel and US for military hardware and software.

Moscow's tendency to delay deliveries and ToT, jack up costs midway and faulty product support has forced New Delhi to increasingly look at countries like Israel and US for military hardware and software.

So Moscow is deliberately delaying deliveries?

As opposed to the indigenous carrier delayed to 2018 just can't be helped, and is just a sign of good business practise.

The real problem in this case I believe is the unrealistic demands of the customer.

If you buy a standard product for a standard price then there are no problems and it will arrive on time and to budget.

Start demanding changes to customise, however and you have to expect potential problems and delays when the substituted product doesn't act as it should or doesn't work as expected.

What they should do, to avoid penalties is to simply deliver the ship and say that because of your design choices regarding boiler insulation you will have speed limitations till you fix the insulation problem yourselves.

I am sure someone in India would complain about that too.

The amusing thing is that their stated claim for wanting to get it into service was to have their two new carriers in service by 2015, but with the indigenous carrier delayed till 2018 then it doesn't matter if this ship was ready right now it still isn't going to happen...

[quote="GarryB"]

The amusing thing is that their stated claim for wanting to get it into service was to have their two new carriers in service by 2015, but with the indigenous carrier delayed till 2018 then it doesn't matter if this ship was ready right now it still isn't going to happen...

they currently have one in service ..

and i agree with u to wait and have a better product then be hasty and get a incomplete one ,but for future deals the delays which the russians have made will certainly be a factor .... if u look at the C130 deals with usa ,it was delivered on time ..... i think the americans knew that if they really want to break in to the indian defense market ,they need to deliver on time .deliver on quality and price .... that is the reason india has ordered more c130 from them

Three months is not much given all other subsystems and aviation wing is ready. Of course it would be much batter

this situation never ocurred in the first place.

On the other hand India will in short time take 3 Frigates, Nuclear sub and Aircraft carrier with fighters.

Accidents and delays in time and money but I guess nothing critical. Its batter for India that accident ocurr while

systems are on testing than later while in service.

Russia will in time improve (and has being improving) its timeline of delivery and after sale maintenance with no accidents like this

one, but on the other hand US will sell India nuclear subs or hi-tech knowledge on 5th gen fighter design.

Repair of Indian Carrier to Take 3 Months, No Longer
http://rusnavy.com/news/newsofday/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16054

I really don't think you can compare the redesign and refit of a cruiser/carrier into a through deck carrier with the C-130 Hercules, which is a mature product that has been in production for years.

Lets face it... India bought the western An-12, so I wouldn't be too excited about it.

Not to suggest the C-130 is a bad aircraft, but if India ordered 100,000 AK-103s and they arrived on time there would be no bragging from Russia about that.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/China-behind-Gorshkov-delay/videoshow/17146085.cms

it seems chinese gave faulty parts