T-62s in Russian Army

lyle6 wrote:Afghanit is supposed to be quick enough to intercept hypersonic subcaliber shots within average engagement distances of just below 1 km.
Going by brute force alone it should have plenty of time to engage both decoy and main rocket of the RPG-30.

How will Afghanit shut their protective shields when the APS launches a munition? Because if it can't the fragments will wash over the system, destroying the APS completely.

jhelb wrote:

GarryB wrote:Which suggests new APS systems are immensely valuable, especially if their components can be duplicated or protected.

RPG-30 has already proved it is not.

Where and against whom has it been used?

flamming_python wrote:Where and against whom has it been used?

Being used against Ukros in Ukraine.

Was used successfully against Israeli Merkava tanks in occupied Palestine.

jhelb wrote:

flamming_python wrote:Where and against whom has it been used?

Being used against Ukros in Ukraine.

Was used successfully against Israeli Merkava tanks in occupied Palestine.

Any photos or written accounts of that?

lyle6 wrote:Probably one of the reasons why everyone is suddenly packing programmable fragmentation shells.

Can you please share an example or two of these shells? Thanks.

RPG-30 has already proved it is not.

Has it?

I mean I understand the concept... a small high velocity rocket flying on the same trajectory... the smaller faster rocket sets off the APS defensive munition and the actual penetrator following it arrives before the system can reset ready to engage a second target.

But that kinda assumes the system is not able to handle more than one threat at a time... true for known western APS systems but I would think as the Russians developed the RPG-30 to defeat APS systems they would also design their APS systems to deal with such threats too.

How will Afghanit shut their protective shields when the APS launches a munition? Because if it can't the fragments will wash over the system, destroying the APS completely.

ARENA has a reaction time of 0.07 seconds and a target detection range of 50m.

An anti tank guided rocket or unguided rocket is going to be moving at 300-500 m/s approximately, so the first rocket is detected at 50m and lets say it is moving at 500m/s in the 0.07 seconds the system needs to do its calculations and launch its interception munition at 500m/s the rocket target will move about 35 metres, but the following actual penetrator has to then close the 50m detection range distance before the next 0.07 second cycle can be completed... if the main rocket is moving at the same speed it should be able to travel 70m, which suggests the second rocket should hit the target before it resets... but there is a core issue... even the old system could detect the first rocket is smaller than the second rocket so it might just ignore the first threat and engage the second one.

More importantly the Afghanit can't possibly operate that slow with an APFSDS round because detection at 50m and 0.07 second preparation time would mean it detects an APFSDS round at 50m and then 0,.07 second later that incoming penetrator has move over 100 metres... 126 metres in fact... so either the preparation time is shorter, or the detection range is bigger or most likely both... which means it is able to see further.

The RPG-30 has a problem... the rockets need to be far enough apart not to be intercepted by the same munition, but close enough together that the system does not have time to recognise a second threat and with a shorter reaction time and greater detection range I think that would be a near impossible task.

More importantly the newer systems should have much better optical and radar sensors which offers much better target information out to greater distances and with a lot better precision making the potential for multi threat engagement a real possibility...

Being used against Ukros in Ukraine.

Which Orc vehicles had operational APS systems?

Can you please share an example or two of these shells? Thanks.

The technology is not sophisticated... they had directed fragmentation warheads on their surface to air missiles for more than 50 years.... it is just a question of having multiple fuses located in the HE warhead with an outer shell of pre fragmented material... in the case of SAMs it determines the angular direction to the target in the last milisecond and detonates the fuse opposite from the target... the explosion and majority of the fragments are then directed at the place where the target is going to be.

No different for this APS system... the trajectory of the munition is known and relatively predictable and fixed and the trajectory of the incoming threat is calculated and an intercept course is determined and the launch and explosive direction of the warhead can be calculated incredibly quickly... and whoosh... boom.

GarryB wrote:ARENA has a reaction time of 0.07 seconds and a target detection range of 50m.

An anti tank guided rocket or unguided rocket is going to be moving at 300-500 m/s approximately, so the first rocket is detected at 50m and lets say it is moving at 500m/s in the 0.07 seconds the system needs to do its calculations and launch its interception munition at 500m/s the rocket target will move about 35 metres, but the following actual penetrator has to then close the 50m detection range distance before the next 0.07 second cycle can be completed... if the main rocket is moving at the same speed it should be able to travel 70m, which suggests the second rocket should hit the target before it resets... but there is a core issue... even the old system could detect the first rocket is smaller than the second rocket so it might just ignore the first threat and engage the second one.

At what frequency is ARENA being used? AFAIK APS are generally operated in the S-band but taking APS like Iron Fist into account, the active protection grenade it use I think it should be higher, maybe Ku or even mm wave band. as it can produce narrow beam suitable for aiming.

The other important thing is Programmable Ammo. APS whether Russian or Western might not be able to stop such programmable ammos.

It's not easy to coordinate a double attack on one vehicle with a very small window of fire. Most cases will be 1 atgm launched.

That is true, although the Russians have solved that problem with the RPG-30 with two rockets in the same launcher fired at once, and of course the Kornet missiles which are beam riders so launching two missiles at the same time to ride the same laser beam also achieves the same result too.

(The man portable model has on missile ready to launch but most vehicle mounts have two or more ready to fire missiles)

At what frequency is ARENA being used?

AFAIK it is not being used because the MMW radar emissions of its detection equipment can be tracked giving away the location of the protected vehicles in real time to the enemy.

I mentioned it because such details about the speed at which it resets to new targets has been published.

To be clear those figure are for the first gen ARENA and not the current models.

AFAIK APS are generally operated in the S-band but taking APS like Iron Fist into account, the active protection grenade it use I think it should be higher, maybe Ku or even mm wave band. as it can produce narrow beam suitable for aiming.

It would need to be MMW frequency for the level of precision with very small targets required, so Ku or Ka bands...

The other important thing is Programmable Ammo. APS whether Russian or Western might not be able to stop such programmable ammos.

Sounds like you don't understand what programmable ammo is...

APS systems intercept incoming rounds, whether it has a programmable round or not that is what APS does.

If you programme your programmable round to detonate 100m away from a tank then yes, I agree the APS wont do much about that, but then it wouldn't need to do much about that either.

APS are supposed to intercept and damage or destroy projectiles heading towards your tank on an intercept course.

If the APS system detects the incoming threat is going to miss it might do nothing at all and let the threat miss.

In my opinion I think something like a 50 cal round with a ballistic plastic nose cap under which a corner reflector is fitted which makes the round appear much much bigger than it actually is on radar... a 50 round belt of those... which would be super cheap BTW... solid cheap metal body with a plastic ballistic shaped nose for aerodynamics, and sit in a position with no direct line of sight to the enemy vehicles so they can't shoot you and then just fire single rounds at the visible tanks... each shot would appear to be much larger than it actually is... a missile rather than a 50 cal shell, and if they are on target to hit the tank then the APS has to operate to intercept it...  you could use a rifle or a HMG in single shot.... after a few days they will run out of APS munitions and long before that they will get sick of the APS systems firing all the time at what appears to be no rockets... they will either run out of munitions or they will turn the systems off... when you fire the next dozen rounds and the tanks don't launch intercept munitions then get out your Kornets and Bulats and start smoking tanks.

Even if you have to fire 1,000 rounds... 1,000 rounds of 50cal rounds made of cheap simple basic metals like low quality steel or scrap iron... you could put material in the nose of the round to make it flash when it impacts the target so you can see your hits and track which targets don't have their APS systems on.

GarryB wrote:of course the Kornet missiles which are beam riders so launching two missiles at the same time to ride the same laser beam also achieves the same result too.

Even the latest generation of ARENA or any western APS won't be able to stop a beam riding ATGM like Kornet.

Even the latest generation of ARENA or any western APS won't be able to stop a beam riding ATGM like Kornet.

The guidance is kinda irrelevant, the Kornet is a supersonic anti tank missile like many other anti tank guided missles like Hellfire and TOW and HOT and Konkurs etc etc.

Most APS systems are designed and intended to shoot down anti tank guided missiles and unguided rockets like RPGs and they do that by tracking incoming targets and launching an interceptor munition to defeat it before it hits the tank being defended.

The original ARENA could engage targets moving at speeds between 50m/s and 700m/s or thereabouts... can you say why you think it wont try to stop laser beam riding missiles?

I think you might be confusing APS systems with SHTORA ESMs.

The dazzling component of SHTORA would not effect Kornet because the missile does the manouvering and it does so by looking back at launcher so dazzlers on the target vehicle have no effect, but having a munition launched at it and hitting it before it impacts the tank would certainly effect a Kornet.

The twin launchers on the BMP-2 upgrades and the quad launchers on the Tigr vehicles was specifically to be able to fire two at a time to defeat APS systems, which is different.

Russian tankers never use the telnik programmable HE round in the SMO. They only use contact fuze shells from the 60s.

Russians never designed an HE round with flechettes instead of tungsten balls. Now that most ukrainian troops have massive amounts of shrapnel resistant body armor, they're less likely to be heavily injured by tungsten ball shrapnel. Meanwhile flechette shrapnel will go through their body armor.

limb wrote:Russians never designed an HE round with flechettes instead of tungsten balls. Now that most ukrainian troops have massive amounts of shrapnel resistant body armor, they're less likely to be heavily injured by tungsten ball shrapnel. Meanwhile flechette shrapnel will go through their body armor.

Flechette fragments are not likely to reach a sufficient velocity to become armor piercing projectiles, not unless all the enemy have is kevelar.

Made minced meat of a lot of "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan.

GarryB wrote:The twin launchers on the BMP-2 upgrades and the quad launchers on the Tigr vehicles was specifically to be able to fire two at a time to defeat APS systems, which is different.

Different how?

Far better to arm soldiers with RPG-30. Fire 2 rounds at any APS in quick succession - will defeat any modern day APS.

lyle6 wrote:Flechettes darts are useless against troops in defilade.

For that there is the Lancet drone.

Different how?

You said APS systems couldn't intercept Kornet because Kornet is a beam rider.

I pointed out that APS systems can defeat beam riders because APS systems physically intercept incoming threats with kinetic or fragmentation munitions to destroy them at standoff ranges, but that Kornet could defeat an APS simply the way any other missile could defeat an APS by firing two missiles in quick succession so the APS defeats the first missile but does not have time to reset and detect and track and engage the second missile flying milliseconds behind the first missile which the APS just intercepted.

The man portable launcher has a single missile mount but the vehicle launchers have two or four or 8 missiles ready to fire so launching two missiles is an option.

Far better to arm soldiers with RPG-30. Fire 2 rounds at any APS in quick succession - will defeat any modern day APS.

So far APS systems don't seem to be a problem though so current rockets and missiles seem to do just fine.

Now that most ukrainian troops have massive amounts of shrapnel resistant body armor, they're less likely to be heavily injured by tungsten ball shrapnel.

Body armour coverage is limited in most cases so a 125mm shell going off nearby... it wont need flechette fragments to kill people or injure people.

Two solutions for body armour is to go for much heavier fragments or much smaller lighter ones... the advantages and disadvantages are heavier means fewer but they do more damage and reach further... but there are fewer so the chances of hitting people spread out is much lower, while with lighter ones you can have a lot more but they slow down faster and do not do damage over greater ranges, but at close range they are devastating... the time it takes to bleed out is quite short when your arms and legs and face are a sieve haemorrhaging blood.

Most modern vests with hard plates will stop flechettes anyway... flechettes were rejected as replacements for small arms ammo because of inaccuracy issues but also they are not very lethal... they have a very narrow wound channel and tend to punch right through the target without doing a serious amount of damage unless its path of travel was through something important.

Of course I certainly wouldn't want to be hit by them, but for a long time bomb makers could put nails in their bombs or they could put bits of metal and glass etcetc... they tend to use the latter because nails don't always fly properly through the air which means poor flight performance and poor penetration... ironically... because flechette design is all about high flight speed and over penetration...