India Arms Market Competition

Sarkozy trade coup as India buys nuclear reactors
6 December 2010

India has signed a deal to buy nuclear reactors off France, following talks between President Nicolas Sarkozy and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Delhi.

The agreement was signed at a ceremony attended by the two leaders.

Mr Sarkozy is on a four-day official visit, joined by his defence, foreign and finance ministers and about 60 business leaders.

Indian media reports that wife, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, asked for a son during a blessing at a shrine.

Under the civil nuclear deal, two French reactors worth £6.3bn ($10bn) are expected to be built at Jaitapur in the western Indian state of Maharashtra.

Monday's agreement was signed by the heads of French state-controlled nuclear group Areva and India's Nuclear Power Corporation.

India has 22 nuclear reactors and is seeking to expand its energy sector, opening up a market estimated at £90bn over 15 years.

France's first lady said she would like to have a son, during Sunday's visit the Salim Chishti dargah [shrine] in Fatehpur Sikri near the northern Indian city of Agra, according to Indian media reports.

Chief priest Peerzada Rais Mian Chisthi said: "I told them this dargah granted wishes to jobless, unmarried and even childless. He [Nicolas Sarkozy] asked me to pray for him and wish him success. While they were tying the thread, Carla [Bruni-Sarkozy] said she wanted a son and I prayed for them," Press Trust of India quoted him as saying.

He said as the couple were leaving, Ms Bruni-Sarkozy again expressed a wish to have a son.

Centuries ago, a childless Mughal emperor Akbar is believed to have prayed before a Sufi saint, Salim Chishti, for an heir. Subsequently, he was blessed with three sons.

Since then, thousands of people have visited the shrine every day from India and abroad, to pray.

The BBC's Geeta Pandey in Delhi says the South Asian preference for sons is well-known and many say that's the main reason for the skewed sex ratio in India.

France, the world's second largest producer of nuclear energy after the US, hopes to lead an international revival of the industry, which is expected to benefit from worries about global warming and soaring energy prices.

Hungry for energy to fuel its booming economy, India has a population of 1.2 billion, but gets only a tiny fraction of its electricity from nuclear power.

Supporters of the deal say that having more nuclear plants in India could help reduce global demand for oil and gas while at the same time significantly reducing the country's pollution levels.

Among the business leaders in the French delegation are the heads of Dassault Aviation, the aircraft manufacturer, and EADS, the aerospace contractor.

Mr Sarkozy arrived in India on Saturday and toured a space research facility in Bangalore before making a sunset visit to the Taj Mahal - the monument of love in the town of Agra - with his wife, who is a singer and former model.

The couple then went sight-seeing at the ancient city of Fatehpur Sikri near Agra on Sunday.

Mr Sarkozy is also expected to visit Mumbai, India's financial and entertainment capital, before returning home on Tuesday.

The visit is his first to a G20 state since France last month took the presidency of the group of developed and major developing economic powers.

Mr Sarkozy has backed India's bid for a permanent seat at the UN Security Council, and supported India's membership of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, a gathering of countries that export civil nuclear technology.

US President Barack Obama and British Prime Minister David Cameron have both visited India recently, as world powers look to the booming Asian giant for export opportunities.

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev are the next world leaders scheduled to sweep into Delhi.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11923836

Maybe when Medvedev visits there might be a construction contract for Russia too.

BTW more power plants is good for India too even if they are french .

France hasn't had much luck selling weapons this year, but they landed an ass load of nuclear contracts in China and India.

Just in, the A330 MRTT won India's tanker contract over our Il-78. Link

No, Russia is still the biggest arms seller to India.

A330 is simply a much more modern aircraft than the Il-76, so there is no surprise that India went for it.

No reason for Russia to get upset. In any case, the recent Iraqi arms contract more than covers any "loss" from not getting more Indian contracts, so I doubt Rosoboronexport is hurting.

i am curious .russia supplies arms to almost the entire world i mean non nato ..
does it really effect russia if they lose a few deals here in india ?
they say mig is going to thru problems . but there r so many deals mig still has to complete ..

Notably, all the aircraft deals with Soviet Union/ Russia so far have been on government to government basis, including for the FGFA. This is the first time that Russian aircraft – Mi 26 heavy lift vs. Boeing CH 47F Chinook, and Il 78 against Airbus MRTT – are pitted in global competitions in India, involving mandatory offsets. If the Russians win, they will have to do what is required by the DPP (Defence Procurement Policy) and invest 30 percent of the deal back in Indian defence industry.

The FGFA programme began in 2006 and MTA in 2007, and both these, as well as for the Indian Navy's 45 Mig 29 shipboard fighters, are exempt from offsets. The Mig 29 programme is part of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier's acquisition programme, signed well before the DPP came in place.

source india strategic

India is the core of Russian arms exports. The most important deal we have is FGFA and its schedule has been moved back from 2017 to 2020. The Gorshkov deal has been an utter embarrassment and we still haven't delivered the Nerpa. Costs for MKI and T-90 has shot through the roof and follow on orders for tanks are in danger with its slow progress. I am concerned watching several contracts go to France and the US: Rafale, Scorpene, Apache, P-8I, C-17, C-130 and now MRTT. The French are also likely to win the Snecma-Kaveri deal, P75i, LUH, NMRH and LPD. How can we have any credibility selling amphibious ships and LUH when we buy them from France? Knowing India is not afraid to buy American that leaves us even more vulnerable. Even Yak-130 lost to the BAE Hawk. India is on the biggest spending spree the world has ever seen and we are missing out if we don't get our act together.

ur right . there is almost nothing that russia cant provide to india ..and recently we have seen a lot of deals going to the western countries.. let me tell u from my side what i see here in india . india is increasingly becoming more proamerican and prowest.. maybe most of the youngsters find india closer to the west cuz india and west have common enemy in terrorism .. and also sujoy pointed out in one thread ..
the holywood movies and the american companies buying india media which puts russia in a bad light .its been years since i have read any good stories in media about russia .it is always negative . the ghorhkov deal has made it worse .. plus the russian who travel to goa have not helped the cause . do u know in goa russian mafia has bought land illegally and they dont even allow indians to visit some of the beaches .. i mean all these things does effect ina abig way ... before any deals our politicians did with usa was seen with suspicion but now our politicians dont find any resistence from the india public or media even if they r buying shit from america..

russia needs to step up its game and do it fast .. ther will be people who might say if india doesnt need russia then russia wont need india.. but according to me if ihave a good friend and some1 else tries to steal him . i will fight with tooth and nail to get him back ...
those were the days

It's a case of the glass being half full rather than half empty . While a lot gets written about the deals Russia lost we rarely get to read about deals that Russia won . Last month itself Russia & India signed deals worth $1.7 billion for missiles alone . Later this year there is the $3.5 billion dollar Super Sukhoi deal .

The A330 won on overall lifecycle, maintenance and fuel costs.

The quantum of weapons of Russian origin (both in terms of numbers & financial figures) still continues to be quite large & will remain so for the next 50 years. Procuring weapons of US / EU origin in future like AH-64Ds & CH-47Fs will not change this reality .

Vladimir79 wrote:India is the core of Russian arms exports. The most important deal we have is FGFA and its schedule has been moved back from 2017 to 2020.

FGFA(indian version) is very much on drawing board. There is no way its schedule can be determined precisely. All is just media hu-hah regarding schedules and numbers. As far as I can see it is progressing smoothly with first part completed already.

The Gorshkov deal has been an utter embarrassment

Agreed.

and we still haven't delivered the Nerpa.

What??Its been delivered as far as I know or have I missed something.

Costs for MKI and T-90 has shot through the roof and follow on orders for tanks are in danger with its slow progress.

India already has full commitment of 270 MKIs and Russia should not expect realistically that any more will be ordered. Just too big a plane and too many numbers already.

Rafale,

MMRCA was never going to be Russian, it was known from very beginning, when only at the recommendation of Russian ambassador Mig was included in the competition. All eggs in one basket argument exists even if it is never publically mentioned. India currently operates about 300 Migs(21, 27 & 29) and nearly 200 Sukhois compared to about 170 mirages and jaguars. Thats a ratio of 500(Russia) to 170(Europe) i.e. 75%:25%. About 20 years from now it will be Flanker(~260), FGFA(~120-140), Mig29(~40-50) = Total 430-440. French: Rafale (~120), Mirage(~40) = Total 160. Maybe 120 LCAs. Still ratio will be 430 RUS :160 FRA :120 IND i.e 60%:23%:17%. Pretty much only difference in future will be made by LCA (replacing Mig21s) if you look at overall picture.

Vladimir79 wrote:India is the core of Russian arms exports. The most important deal we have is FGFA and its schedule has been moved back from 2017 to 2020. The Gorshkov deal has been an utter embarrassment and we still haven't delivered the Nerpa. Costs for MKI and T-90 has shot through the roof and follow on orders for tanks are in danger with its slow progress. I am concerned watching several contracts go to France and the US: Rafale, Scorpene, Apache, P-8I, C-17, C-130 and now MRTT. The French are also likely to win the Snecma-Kaveri deal, P75i, LUH, NMRH and LPD. How can we have any credibility selling amphibious ships and LUH when we buy them from France? Knowing India is not afraid to buy American that leaves us even more vulnerable. Even Yak-130 lost to the BAE Hawk. India is on the biggest spending spree the world has ever seen and we are missing out if we don't get our act together.

As a poster pointed out, there is a lot of collaboration happening. But these happen in segments which do not get advertised, purely, because of their strategic nature.

The current air dominance fighter of the IAF is Russian and the future adf is also with Russia. The Talwar class has kept a shipyard busy.
The Nerpa has been delivered. Its been commissioned in the Indian Navy. As far as the MMRCA is concerned, it was quite obvious it would be either of the Eurocanards. As far as the Yak-130 is concerned, it was not ready.

Having said this, the main Indian aim today is to get technologies to companies in India. Which is why the US flops on all the offensive weapons platforms, except the Longbow. Which is why the F-35 always gets rejected.

For artillery, there was no russian piece involved.

Russia Denies Losing Indian Arms Tenders

© RIA Novosti. Grigory Sissoev
19:01 28/11/2012


MOSCOW, November 28 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport denied on Wednesday media reports that it had lost tenders on the delivery of heavy-lift helicopters and aerial tankers to the Indian air force.

“Rosoboronexport denies media speculation about Russia’s loss in both tenders as these reports are false,” the company said in a statement.

“The results of these tenders have not been announced, and any premature speculation on the subject misleads the public and professionals, both in Russia and in India,” the statement said.

Media reports in Russian and Indian media earlier indicated that the Russian upgraded Mi-26T2 Halo heavy-lift helicopter lost to the Boeing Chinook CH-47F, while the Il-78MK-90 aerial tanker lost to Airbus A330 MRTT.

The Indian media cited cost effectiveness and after-sales service as main factors that tilted the scales in favor of the US and European aircraft.

Rosoboronexport insists, however, that the Russian aircraft deserve to win the tenders as “they not only possess unique characteristics, but also satisfy all Indian requirements, including high cost effectiveness.”

Russia’s traditionally strong position on the Indian arms market has been recently undermined by fierce competition with the US and European companies and failures to fulfill several contracts.

Last year Russian arms exporters suffered two painful losses at Indian tenders. Russia did not win the contract to supply 22 helicopters to India, which preferred the US AH-64D Apache to Russia’s Mi-28N.

During the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender announced by the Indian Air Force to replace the aging MiG-21s, the Russian MiG-35 did not even make it to the finals, where the Eurofighter Typhoon twin-engine multirole fighter lost a contract worth at least $10 billion to France’s Dassault Rafale.


http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121128/177799243.html

i don't think we Indians will ever forget what U.S.S.R. and Russia did for us in the past but the problem is some of our defence planners feel that we are putting all our eggs in a single basket i.e. we are totally dependent on Russian weaponry(which is totally true).so what they are trying to do is to diversify the weapon sources but as a senior member have pointed out here that presently nearly 80% aircrafts of IAF are of Soviet/Russian origin.besides the Dassault Rafale is The most potent multi role combat aircraft in the present world.so by choosing Rafale over others the IAF has made a terrific decision as we already have around 170 Sukhoi SU-30 MKIs(out of 272 ordered) for air superiority/air dominance.so Rafale will complement the MKIs in the IAF and together they will be the most potent aircrafts in the South A sian region.But i don't think France can ever replace Russia in the next 50-100 years as Russia is not only our main strategic partner but also our closest friend for the past 5 decades !and btw the video was awesome,i really enjoyed the way those Russian paratroopers were singing a hindi song

Well there is a track record... when has Russia imposed sanctions on India regarding any of Indias actions? When has Russia told India what India can or cannot do with the Russian weapons it buys?

At the end of the day the Russian basket has proven very safe... the only real issues is that often it takes extra time for spares and support to arrive sometimes, but that sort of thing can be sorted out with Indian produced spare parts licensing.

The whole premise behind putting your eggs in more than one basket is if one basket is dropped then you don't lose all of your eggs.

The problem in applying it to Russia as a military equipment supplier is that you are talking about taking the eggs out of a perfectly safe basket and putting them in the basket carried by the village idiot who imposes sanctions on a whim.

If India wants to shift its eggs to the basket of an amateur juggler then who am I to criticise... but don't expect better results just because you have engaged other vendors.

GarryB wrote:
If India wants to shift its eggs to the basket of an amateur juggler then who am I to criticise... but don't expect better results just because you have engaged other vendors.

It's not about Russia or France for India, it's getting the best from both, since that reduces the overdependance from Russia, adds alternative weapons and tactics (that proved to be important during Kargil as well) and puts pressure on Russia as a supplier as well, to not miss deadlines, to not increase costs afterwards, to improve quality and aftersale support.
France never imposed sanctions on India either, can offer nearly any vessel, vehilce or aircraft that Russia can and offers similar advantages in terms of ToT, co-developments and low restrictions.

From Indias point of view, this obviously is the best solution to get the most benefits, although it will cost more in the short term. But when you look at the procurements closely, Russia is not loosing at all as the media often says. Mig 29Ks, MKIs, FGFA, M17, Ka 31, A50, MTA, T90, Gorshkov, Akula, Brahmos, many different ammos...
The difference is only, that India has more options from the west than it had in the past, just like the financial capacity is higher, so it don't have to be the cheapest anymore. India might not buy anything anymore, but still prefers Russia as the prime partner for co-developments and so does Russia the other way around. As long as that doesn't change, we will see a healthy Indo-Russian relationship in future too.

It's not about Russia or France for India, it's getting the best from both, since that reduces the overdependance from Russia, adds alternative weapons and tactics (that proved to be important during Kargil as well) and puts pressure on Russia as a supplier as well, to not miss deadlines, to not increase costs afterwards, to improve quality and aftersale support.

Not to miss deadlines?

What planet are you from?

If India seems to have the mindset that from Russia it can get simple cheap stuff and from France it gets the more complex stuff for significantly more but with better after sales service. Now it wants the same after sale service and support from Russia as it gets from France, but without paying for it.

It seems an aircraft carrier with a full air wing for 2 billion is a stab in the back from Russia, while 126 fighter aircraft for 10 billion... then 12 billion... and who knows how many more billion when the contract is fulfilled is simply ignored.

Russia has changed its goals and its plans and it is going for high tech now, and such a change means that the bargain basement deals India is used to might become rather more scarce.

If India is not interested in Mi-26s or Mig-35s then that is fine, but Russia is working to find new markets all the time, so if India wants and all French military that is fine too... but I really doubt it is going to happen.

India has never bought only Soviet or Russian equipment and I don't expect that will ever change.

Of course the question I would ask is what forces would be pushing India away from Russian and Soviet weapons to French or western weapons... I thought the goal of Indians a short time ago was to make their own weapons for themselves, yet instead they seem to be going for a dependency on the Soviets/Russians to a dependency on the west... again I would ask why, and who would benefit from such a shift?

Certainly Russia would not benefit, but I am pretty sure India wouldn't benefit much from it either.

France never imposed sanctions on India either, can offer nearly any vessel, vehilce or aircraft that Russia can and offers similar advantages in terms of ToT, co-developments and low restrictions.

How many programs like Brahmos and Su-30MKI are there with India and France?
Sure France supplied components for the Su-30MKI, but how many basically French systems has India decided to coproduce with France to upgrade and adapt to their own needs. India wanted to buy more Mirage 2000s, France said no. They even asked to make M2Ks and France said no you must buy Rafales instead... eventually after an expensive and time consuming competition France got its way... India will get 12 Rafales built in France and then get to assemble 116 odd more in India... by the time they get into service India will likely be producing FFGAs.

i agree with u gary ..... i also have to point out that even though russia is looking for new markets .russia is not rdy to let india go and neither does india want that..both realize that there is more advantage in working together then ever before

india's own defense production is pretty week so i think for atleast the next 10 years india will still depend on other countries for arms ..so india wont let go of reliable partners like russia

The days of cheap simple but effective Russian weapons will be drawing to a close.

This is going to effect all of Russias customers, including India and China.

For a start the weapons will not be so easy to copy for China which makes licence production more important than ever.

Obviously I am biased, but I am sad to see that India and Russia haven't gotten together to make a low cost 5th gen fighter... a fighter aircraft with modest performance and operating costs and that is not going to be expensive to buy or to operate but has features like internal stowage of weapons and stealthy design.

A small aircraft wont have a huge amount of volume for internal weapons capacity, but design features like wingtip pods that might contain up to 4 light short range AAMs in each pod design to eject the missiles away from the aircraft before the engines light up. The front and rear of each pod can be designed as an ECM/ELINT pod so even a small fighter could carry 8 AAMs in the wingtips plus perhaps a small weapons bay for the body of the aircraft carrying either another 4 medium range missiles like R-77s or perhaps two 500kg guided bombs. 3 or 4 underwing pylons could be reserved for use when the enemy fighters are no longer a threat and stealth is not a problem anymore.

Operationally such a numbers aircraft could be flown at medium height with a couple of large AAMs like RVV-BD in the belly positions while its missiles in its wingtips could be kept for self defence.

Larger aircraft like the FFGA or PAK FA could look for enemy targets and pass on target data to these light fighters and Su-35s and Mig-35s so that the PAK FAs can remain fully armed and ready to engage targets that require their capabilities.

The point of the light 5th gen fighters is as a bomb truck, but also AAMs when needed in a stealthy role.

It makes rather more sense to have lots of smaller cheaper stealthy aircraft attacking Chinese or Pakistani air defences than a few larger stealthy aircraft.

Such an aircraft would have widespread appeal if it has a modern 360 degree AESA, modern weapons and avionics/displays/sensors/self defence suites etc.

The point is that it doesn't need enormous range or a massive payload and it doesn't need to fly at mach 2 in dry thrust.

russia is developing much better tech then ever before and i dont think india would mind or should mind paying a little extra for good stuff .however i think india is in a mode where it is looking for partnership .. maybe russia and india could work together on amca project .cuz i know one thing for sure amca will be cheaper then any other 5th gen aircraft .if it all it is made .india likes to make things cheap lol

ricky123 wrote:maybe russia and india could work together on amca project .

For that, there is FGFA. AMCA will be an indegenous project, whenever it happens. Because that is why it is there in first place.

Russia has questioned New Delhi’s fairness and transparency in awarding multi-billion dollar military contracts, and warned that it may have to reconsider doing business with India.

“We know what gimmicks are used to manipulate deals,” Russian ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin told HT in an exclusive interview, adding that his country may not bid for Indian military tenders in the future. “Sometimes, terms of tenders are crafted specifically to get the required results.”

The statement comes in the wake of Russia losing ground in the Indian arms market in the past few years, with international rivals winning tenders to supply modern fighter jets, mid-air refuellers, heavy-lift helicopters and attack choppers to the Indian military.

Russia’s current defence portfolio in India is worth $20 billion ( Rs. 1,08,000 crore).

But such outcomes have weakened the standing of India’s oldest and largest arms supplier.

Israel, the second largest defence supplier to India, has bagged business worth more than $10 billion ( Rs. 54,000 cr) in the past 10-12 years. The US, currently at number three, could overtake Israel if India chooses to place some follow-on orders for platforms already contracted.

Instead of tenders, Russia now wants to sell military equipment to India directly through government-to-government deals, Kadakin said.

India has ordered equipment worth $8 billion ( Rs. 43,200 crore) from the US in the past five years through Washington’s foreign military sales programme, a government-to-government method for selling US-built platforms.

“If we emerge number two, it doesn’t mean our platform is any worse. But it sends out that impression and causes damage to our reputation,” Kadakin said. He added that Russia had stood by India when strictest sanctions were imposed on the country after it conducted nuclear tests.

Kadakin acknowledged that India, being “an emerging superpower”, had the right to build defence ties with other countries, but was quick to point out that unlike “some newly-acquired partners”, Russia had never hesitated to transfer the most sensitive defence technologies to India.

“Name a country that will lease you a nuclear submarine. Will the Americans, the British or the French lease you such a platform?” Kadakin asked, referring to the Akula-II nuclear-powered attack submarine leased to India by Russia last year. “This is the unique character of our privileged strategic partnership. Your people have to realise this.”
http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/Miffed-Russia-may-stop-arms-sale-to-India/Article1-1049963.aspx

Yellow Journalism at it's best .

For the record most Indian English news papers and TV channels have some sort of Western backing and HT is no different.

I think Russia has remote controlled DISABLED the airdefence missles which Indian Air Force

is using in air exercise.Indian goveernement is getting tensed as their is no airfdefence mechanism except for

SU-30 which capabilities are still low as compared to other Air forces in Asian region.

Tensions with China and Pak simulatneiously is making Indian Gov go Jittery

they know that they only have Israeli Air defence(Barak and Spyder) which can only be considered

dummy or decoys nothing much in a true air warfare scenario.


Mirage-2000 Indian air Force is a dummy resource ,it does not have air defence,it has to be escorted by Mig-21 ..

Indian Air force exercises end in failure

The Indian Air Force (IAF) troupe had to wind up their air defence exercise at a test facility

here as three trials of the five attempts made to engage aerial targets by a Russian surface-to-air
missile
(SAM) failed recently. The exercise was conducted at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) in Chandipur with

logistical support from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

Or more likely they are old missiles, that may or may not have been maintained properly, or are expired.