India Arms Market Competition

max steel wrote:I quoted  newspaper article . These arent my words . Rest apache and chinooks outperforming Mi helicoptors is doubtful as usa used russian helicoptors . India wants to diversify its military equipment  and i read that india is getting frustrated with russia's pak-fa delays also . Rest corruption is for sure exists . I'm from India i can guarantee you on that .

Ok, I've been meaning to ask this, but what delays are they b#tching about, last i heard it was still on schedule or did i miss something??

Werewolf wrote:India has a huge corruption and US asslickers in in its government so much is beyond doubt.

Unfortunately for Russia ,a majority of the countries that purchases Russian military hardware are corrupt, uncouth third world countries like India. Hopefully the Kremlin realizes that this is a PR disaster as well. Just look at the number of Mig, Sukhoi crashes in India or the number of times a Kilo sub is destroyed by untrained staff.

The Belarus AF flies the same Su-30 that the Indians fly and yet not a single Su-30 has crashed due to pilot error.

Rosoboronexport  has to do a better job in finding markets in Europe, Middle East and South America.  There is a great demand for hi-tech weapons in these countries and so Rosoboronexport  will not find it very difficult to penetrate these markets.

These countries are far more developed and far less corrupt than countries in Africa and Asia.

AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, I've been meaning to ask this, but what delays are they b#tching about, last i heard it was still on schedule or did i miss something??

This is one major problem with poor countries like India. They cannot make payments on time. Payments have to be made either in US$ or in Euros. Countries like India do not have decent foreign reserves. So naturally Rosoboronexport cannot deliver on time either.

Like I said, if Rosoboronexport has any intention to improve its bottomline it should penetrate markets in Middle East, South America and Europe and rely less on Asian markets like India.

jhelb wrote:

Werewolf wrote:India has a huge corruption and US asslickers in in its government so much is beyond doubt.

Unfortunately for Russia ,a majority of the countries that purchases Russian military hardware are corrupt, uncouth third world countries like India. Hopefully the Kremlin realizes that this is a PR disaster as well. Just look at the number of Mig, Sukhoi crashes in India or the number of times a Kilo sub is destroyed by untrained staff.

The Belarus AF flies the same Su-30 that the Indians fly and yet not a single Su-30 has crashed due to pilot error.

Rosoboronexport  has to do a better job in finding markets in Europe, Middle East and South America.  There is a great demand for hi-tech weapons in these countries and so Rosoboronexport  will not find it very difficult to penetrate these markets.

These countries are far more developed and far less corrupt than countries in Africa and Asia.

AlfaT8 wrote:Ok, I've been meaning to ask this, but what delays are they b#tching about, last i heard it was still on schedule or did i miss something??

This is one major problem with poor countries like India. They cannot make payments on time. Payments have to be made either in US$ or in Euros. Countries like India do not have decent foreign reserves. So naturally Rosoboronexport cannot deliver on time either.

Like I said, if Rosoboronexport has any intention to improve its bottomline it should penetrate markets in Middle East, South America and Europe and rely less on Asian markets like India.

No, India has enough money to pay the bill, they are No.1 importer in weapon market. U.S. France ,Russia and Iseral all want this big market.
about Ru-Ind CV deal , we can not blame Inida. It's not like Rafale deal , rafale deal is an agreement, India did't pay in first place.
Ru-Ind deal , India is already on board, Russia say they want to increase price.....it's like..... and this deal delayed for years.

India problem is their poor management ,airfraft destroyed , submarine sunk , not only Russia weapon, but also Western ones(c-17， Sea Harrier）
From recent deals , I see India don't want to rely on importer weapons for ever, they want to learn tech from every deal. It's good,
India has ambitions and potential to make decent weapons but it need a long way to go .

Rosoboronexport has to do a better job in finding markets in Europe, Middle East and South America. There is a great demand for hi-tech weapons in these countries and so Rosoboronexport will not find it very difficult to penetrate these markets.

These countries are far more developed and far less corrupt than countries in Africa and Asia.

I agree with Type055, you can't judge a whole country on a few minor issues.... they pay for the products they buy and they buy a lot of products.

More importantly you talk about finding markets in Europe and the Middle East, but the countries Russia currently doesn't sell to in these regions are unlikely to change positions any time soon.

I doubt the UK will ever be interested in buying a new Russian fighter... whether it is a MiG-35 or Su-35 or even PAK FA... and I really don't think Russia wants to sell them to the UK either.

Lots of countries in Europe have rejected Russia even for trading in food and other essentials there is no point wasting sales and marketing dollars on such lost causes... there are plenty of countries with the money wanting to buy from a country that wont slap sanctions on them at the drop of a hat.... that offers good weapons at a reasonable price.

Corruption is everywhere... it is not Russias job to fight that or reward or punish countries for their problems... countries need to deal with that themselves... Russia has its own problems in that direction like any other country.

jhelb wrote:

Unfortunately for Russia ,a majority of the countries that purchases Russian military hardware are corrupt, uncouth third world countries like India. Hopefully the Kremlin realizes that this is a PR disaster as well. Just look at the number of Mig, Sukhoi crashes in India or the number of times a Kilo sub is destroyed by untrained staff.
The Belarus AF flies the same Su-30 that the Indians fly and yet not a single Su-30 has crashed due to pilot error.
Rosoboronexport  has to do a better job in finding markets in Europe, Middle East and South America.  There is a great demand for hi-tech weapons in these countries and so Rosoboronexport  will not find it very difficult to penetrate these markets.
These countries are far more developed and far less corrupt than countries in Africa and Asia.
This is one major problem with poor countries like India. They cannot make payments on time. Payments have to be made either in US$ or in Euros. Countries like India do not have decent foreign reserves. So naturally Rosoboronexport cannot deliver on time either.
Like I said, if Rosoboronexport has any intention to improve its bottomline it should penetrate markets in Middle East, South America and Europe and rely less on Asian markets like India.

LOL Calm your tits jhelb . You're uninformed on Indian Military . India has decent foreign reserves . I can't see any nation more developed than India in gdp wise neither in middle east or south america ( brazil is slight ahead . )

regarding crashes . well India NEVER CRASHED SUKHOI .It's Mig-27.

India statement : Mig-27 which is a single engine Strike optimised aircraft is powered by Soviet era Klimov R29B-300 engines, which according to IAF have Technical design flaws in its engines which leads to mid air engine failure . according to IAF it is common mechanical problem and a reoccurring problem found in all engines powering Mig-27.
Mig-27 has been grounded by IAF many times in the past and once for four months at a stretch . in 2006 IAF had planned to replace Klimov R29B-300 engines with NPO Saturn-built AL-31FP turbofan which already powers the IAF’s Su-30MKIs. AL-31FP was lighter by 200kg and offered increased thrust, but re-engineering program was scrapped since IAF owns Internal technical assessment had found Mig-27 suffered from very poor built quality and had little air frame life left and financially it was not seen viable to replace them.
IAF plans to start phasing out Mig-27 from this year and will only operate half of its current fleet (100) by year end will be retiring other upgraded Mig-27 by 2020. IAF also operated Air-superiority variant of Mig-23 which too were retired because of reliability and safety problems. Russian airforce too has retired Mig-23/27 since they were expensive to maintain and too dangerous to fly.
IAF needs to speed up retiring process of Mig-27, in particular, which is proving to be a safety hazards not only to Pilots who fly them but also to Individuals who reside in its flight path.


Regarding Su-30 india is concerned because they do not have protection of hardened shelters in air bases which would save them from direct hits of bombs in the event of a war. hardened shelters are not available for even the limited numbers of aircraft that is available with the Service” . The IAF informed the committee in oral evidence that the aircraft are deprived of hardened shelters because the Sukhoi-30 MKI cannot be fit into the existing ones because of their large size. “It is a much bigger aircraft. Therefore some New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) has to be made in which not only a SU-30 can fit but also servicing, loading of weapons and maintenance activities can be done inside the shelter,”



Alfa : http://www.ibcnews.in/2015/05/04/attrition-india-runs-out-of-patience-with-russia/ ( it's a western presstitute outlet so take it with grain of salt .)

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that. But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India. Specifically Growlers. I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight. They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it. Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's. So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other." I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea. And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

People have different opinions you can't stop them meanwhile India hasn't shown any interest in US F-16IN joint production proposal yet. India was against US F-16 deal with Pakistan as China is also supplying planes to them. U.S. government and private arms salesmen have worked for years to make India a big client for American weapons. India has chosen instead to smile at Americans but to continue to buy its arms from Russia.India is aware that American arms are invariably accompanied by American military advisers to train and support their foreign customers

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

Many Indians welcomed recent procurement of Western, especially US built systems. Many systems from West (or not from Russia/India) were obtained in last decade C130, P8 Poseidon, Apache, Chinnok, Tavors, C17, Dornier Do 228, Pilatus PC-7, BAE Hawk, Casspirs, K9 Thunder, Spike ATGMs, Rafales are an option and many many other.

Well Americans did offer tech transfer for F16IN however Indians opted for Rafale as French DID claim they would give tech transfer to India if they sign contract, however they changed their mind midway and now its out of the question if India stays with this "tiny" 36 aircraft order. There were rumors last few months that US is trying to fill the gap with Super Hornet tech transfer and sales of Growler.

I like idea of Growler as it retains majority of its combat capabilities and still offers huge EW capabilities, its sad that Russia atm does not field real EW aircraft in same category at all except Su-24MP and we do not rly know their status for sure. I wouldnt say that US is falling behind on EW, that is in minds of journalists, Russians are closing the gap, but i wouldnt jump into conclusion that easily to claim that US is falling behind.

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

Many Indians welcomed recent procurement of Western, especially US built systems. Many systems from West (or not from Russia/India) were obtained in last decade C130, P8 Poseidon, Apache, Chinnok, Tavors, C17, Dornier Do 228, Pilatus PC-7, BAE Hawk, Casspirs, K9 Thunder, Spike ATGMs, Rafales are an option and many many other.

Well Americans did offer tech transfer for F16IN however Indians opted for Rafale as French DID claim they would give tech transfer to India if they sign contract, however they changed their mind midway and now its out of the question if India stays with this "tiny" 36 aircraft order. There were rumors last few months that US is trying to fill the gap with Super Hornet tech transfer and sales of Growler.

I like idea of Growler as it retains majority of its combat capabilities and still offers huge EW capabilities, its sad that Russia atm does not field real EW aircraft in same category at all except Su-24MP and we do not rly know their status for sure. I wouldnt say that US is falling behind on EW, that is in minds of journalists, Russians are closing the gap, but i wouldnt jump into conclusion that easily to claim that US is falling behind.

That was pentagon who said that.  As well, the Su-34 has been spotted with Electronic warfare systems so it is available.  Many Indians that liked the purchases are the same indians that are from abroad (also called NRI's) and are paid for.

All those systems you mentioned, none of them are made in India.  As I said, it will also require US personnel on site in order to maintain such equipment.  I highly doubt Indians wanted that.

The Tech Transfer isn't real either. Lets face it, you think they will give India full tot or even half of it, when they cannot even give half of that half to Germany or any of its allies, like UK? Any Indian thinks otherwise, is getting a very long ride by US.

And look at the recent Chinook helicopter deals. As mentioned by Werewolf, the US screwed them. Now they don't have any helicopters to carry its heavier equipment since Chinook cannot carry nearly as much as Mi-26 could have, especially for the new IFV's they are coming out with.

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

Many Indians welcomed recent procurement of Western, especially US built systems. Many systems from West (or not from Russia/India) were obtained in last decade C130, P8 Poseidon, Apache, Chinnok, Tavors, C17, Dornier Do 228, Pilatus PC-7, BAE Hawk, Casspirs, K9 Thunder, Spike ATGMs, Rafales are an option and many many other.

Well Americans did offer tech transfer for F16IN however Indians opted for Rafale as French DID claim they would give tech transfer to India if they sign contract, however they changed their mind midway and now its out of the question if India stays with this "tiny" 36 aircraft order. There were rumors last few months that US is trying to fill the gap with Super Hornet tech transfer and sales of Growler.

I like idea of Growler as it retains majority of its combat capabilities and still offers huge EW capabilities, its sad that Russia atm does not field real EW aircraft in same category at all except Su-24MP and we do not rly know their status for sure. I wouldnt say that US is falling behind on EW, that is in minds of journalists, Russians are closing the gap, but i wouldnt jump into conclusion that easily to claim that US is falling behind.

That was pentagon who said that.  As well, the Su-34 has been spotted with Electronic warfare systems so it is available.  Many Indians that liked the purchases are the same indians that are from abroad (also called NRI's) and are paid for.

All those systems you mentioned, none of them are made in India.  As I said, it will also require US personnel on site in order to maintain such equipment.  I highly doubt Indians wanted that.

Yes i am aware they werent built in India, i tried to point out that its not new practice for India. They are however trying to get as much as they can under "build in India" policy.

Pentagon and "generals" always say that so they get more money from Senate, they did like that always, at least since WW2. There were always certain figures in Defence Department that would cry how US weapons are useless aganist USSR/Russia/China, its just their way to get more money for DARPA and military industry in general.

Its not same if you see SU35/SU34 with jamming pods and dedicated EW platform. Sure those are more than welcome however "real" EW platfom should emerge on SU34 base.

Well Indians always needed foreign help in maintenance especially their navy and air force.

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

Many Indians welcomed recent procurement of Western, especially US built systems. Many systems from West (or not from Russia/India) were obtained in last decade C130, P8 Poseidon, Apache, Chinnok, Tavors, C17, Dornier Do 228, Pilatus PC-7, BAE Hawk, Casspirs, K9 Thunder, Spike ATGMs, Rafales are an option and many many other.

Well Americans did offer tech transfer for F16IN however Indians opted for Rafale as French DID claim they would give tech transfer to India if they sign contract, however they changed their mind midway and now its out of the question if India stays with this "tiny" 36 aircraft order. There were rumors last few months that US is trying to fill the gap with Super Hornet tech transfer and sales of Growler.

I like idea of Growler as it retains majority of its combat capabilities and still offers huge EW capabilities, its sad that Russia atm does not field real EW aircraft in same category at all except Su-24MP and we do not rly know their status for sure. I wouldnt say that US is falling behind on EW, that is in minds of journalists, Russians are closing the gap, but i wouldnt jump into conclusion that easily to claim that US is falling behind.

That was pentagon who said that.  As well, the Su-34 has been spotted with Electronic warfare systems so it is available.  Many Indians that liked the purchases are the same indians that are from abroad (also called NRI's) and are paid for.

All those systems you mentioned, none of them are made in India.  As I said, it will also require US personnel on site in order to maintain such equipment.  I highly doubt Indians wanted that.

Yes i am aware they werent built in India, i tried to point out that its not new practice for India. They are however trying to get as much as they can under "build in India" policy.

Pentagon and "generals" always say that so they get more money from Senate, they did like that always, at least since WW2. There were always certain figures in Defence Department that would cry how US weapons are useless aganist USSR/Russia/China, its just their way to get more money for DARPA and military industry in general.

Its not same if you see SU35/SU34 with jamming pods and dedicated EW platform. Sure those are more than welcome however "real" EW platfom should emerge on SU34 base.

Well Indians always needed foreign help in maintenance especially their navy and air force.

And yet they keep talking about made in India since Modi got it.  Yet he demands more tech transfer from Russia but none from US.  Hmmm, sounds a little odd to me.

Now, imagine those contractors coming from Pakistan and working on India's jets, and then have to go back to Pakistan to work on Pakistan jets.  I wonder how India is going to take that?  As you should be aware by now, India and Pakistan hate each other.  As well, there was a spat from Indians when Russia was ready to sell helicopters and planes to Pakistan.  So how come Russia cannot then sell to both sides if US can?  And what Pakistan wanted was different than what India had or wanted.  What India was gonna get from US is very similar.

There is dedicated EW systems for Su-34: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Fullback.html

SAP-518 and SAP-14

The only purchases that made any sense for India was the Globemasters I believe they are. Even the P-8 was considered obsolete by US standards and they mocked it. The tavor sale was a joke and I have seen my fair share of those guns when I was in India. Then again, I saw so many different types of rifles used by the Indian soldiers/security when I was there, I only imagined the costs on logistics.

India is a nation of heavy corruption. We had to bribe the soldiers just to let us to our hotel for christ sakes.

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

Many Indians welcomed recent procurement of Western, especially US built systems. Many systems from West (or not from Russia/India) were obtained in last decade C130, P8 Poseidon, Apache, Chinnok, Tavors, C17, Dornier Do 228, Pilatus PC-7, BAE Hawk, Casspirs, K9 Thunder, Spike ATGMs, Rafales are an option and many many other.

Well Americans did offer tech transfer for F16IN however Indians opted for Rafale as French DID claim they would give tech transfer to India if they sign contract, however they changed their mind midway and now its out of the question if India stays with this "tiny" 36 aircraft order. There were rumors last few months that US is trying to fill the gap with Super Hornet tech transfer and sales of Growler.

I like idea of Growler as it retains majority of its combat capabilities and still offers huge EW capabilities, its sad that Russia atm does not field real EW aircraft in same category at all except Su-24MP and we do not rly know their status for sure. I wouldnt say that US is falling behind on EW, that is in minds of journalists, Russians are closing the gap, but i wouldnt jump into conclusion that easily to claim that US is falling behind.

That was pentagon who said that.  As well, the Su-34 has been spotted with Electronic warfare systems so it is available.  Many Indians that liked the purchases are the same indians that are from abroad (also called NRI's) and are paid for.

All those systems you mentioned, none of them are made in India.  As I said, it will also require US personnel on site in order to maintain such equipment.  I highly doubt Indians wanted that.

Yes i am aware they werent built in India, i tried to point out that its not new practice for India. They are however trying to get as much as they can under "build in India" policy.

Pentagon and "generals" always say that so they get more money from Senate, they did like that always, at least since WW2. There were always certain figures in Defence Department that would cry how US weapons are useless aganist USSR/Russia/China, its just their way to get more money for DARPA and military industry in general.

Its not same if you see SU35/SU34 with jamming pods and dedicated EW platform. Sure those are more than welcome however "real" EW platfom should emerge on SU34 base.

Well Indians always needed foreign help in maintenance especially their navy and air force.

And yet they keep talking about made in India since Modi got it.  Yet he demands more tech transfer from Russia but none from US.  Hmmm, sounds a little odd to me.

Now, imagine those contractors coming from Pakistan and working on India's jets, and then have to go back to Pakistan to work on Pakistan jets.  I wonder how India is going to take that?  As you should be aware by now, India and Pakistan hate each other.  As well, there was a spat from Indians when Russia was ready to sell helicopters and planes to Pakistan.  So how come Russia cannot then sell to both sides if US can?  And what Pakistan wanted was different than what India had or wanted.  What India was gonna get from US is very similar.

There is dedicated EW systems for Su-34: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Fullback.html

SAP-518 and SAP-14

The only purchases that made any sense for India was the Globemasters I believe they are.  Even the P-8 was considered obsolete by US standards and they mocked it.  The tavor sale was a joke and I have seen my fair share of those guns when I was in India.  Then again, I saw so many different types of rifles used by the Indian soldiers/security when I was there, I only imagined the costs on logistics.

India is a nation of heavy corruption.  We had to bribe the soldiers just to let us to our hotel for christ sakes.

Well aware of Indo-Pakistani relations and conflicts, unlike some countries Serbia offers very rich education

India did request tech transfer when they were offered F35 for an examle, but as it was denied they turned to EF2000 and Rafale. They also wanted tech transfer for Javelin, which was denied and then they opted for Spike, which US seems to didnt like. Well US is "big player", noone is questioning their moves, on other hand India expects somewhat of "friendly obedience" from Russia, as they know they are major buyer of Russian equipment while US has so many other more important customers like Turkey, Egypt, Japan, Taiwan, Israel...

Yes, i am aware of pods developed for SU27 family however just attaching them to SU30/SU34 doesnt make it dedicated EW platform. Similar pods can be mounted on almost any fighter, what Russians need is SU34 built with main role of EW with secondary SEAD/Air Defence. With multiple integral pods and hardware on second seat that does data fusion on ELINT and allows you to share obtained enemy radar/radio/jammers positions and data, that allows you to analyse signals recieved and similar.

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Not what I saw. And from my understanding from my inlaw, in India, these guys control the market due to corruption. If they say no to the trucks (since it will eat their profits, expect a few only to be sold to private firms. The army only operates TATA.

Just to be clear Tatra is Checz automotive company, and TATA is Indian. KrAZ PMP 255b is used in India since 80s and some systems they obtained though time were on Ural chasis, so yeah there are some Russian trucks in Indian army, but not in quantities to be compared with Tata.

I am aware of that.  But my point stands regarding how Tata, Ashok Leland and Mahindra operate.

As well, I was reading through my wifes twitter account and there are people in India really wanting the push for F-18's and F-16's for India.  Specifically Growlers.  I laughed my ass off and said to my wife: "Indians seem to have a very narrow hind-sight.  They seem to think it is a good idea to get F-16's which is the same plane their enemy flies, and think somehow they will get special benefits out of it.  Even Canada doesn't get tech transfer nor does it get its own specialists instead, we have to bring in US contractors to do certain tasks on our CF-188's.  So that would mean that US specialists could just border hop and operate on both nations F-16's, preparing each other to face each other."  I also pointed out how US is falling behind in electronic warfare systems and the Growler may not be a very good idea.  And also mentioned about strings attached.

Guess there is no shortage of useful idiots in India.

Many Indians welcomed recent procurement of Western, especially US built systems. Many systems from West (or not from Russia/India) were obtained in last decade C130, P8 Poseidon, Apache, Chinnok, Tavors, C17, Dornier Do 228, Pilatus PC-7, BAE Hawk, Casspirs, K9 Thunder, Spike ATGMs, Rafales are an option and many many other.

Well Americans did offer tech transfer for F16IN however Indians opted for Rafale as French DID claim they would give tech transfer to India if they sign contract, however they changed their mind midway and now its out of the question if India stays with this "tiny" 36 aircraft order. There were rumors last few months that US is trying to fill the gap with Super Hornet tech transfer and sales of Growler.

I like idea of Growler as it retains majority of its combat capabilities and still offers huge EW capabilities, its sad that Russia atm does not field real EW aircraft in same category at all except Su-24MP and we do not rly know their status for sure. I wouldnt say that US is falling behind on EW, that is in minds of journalists, Russians are closing the gap, but i wouldnt jump into conclusion that easily to claim that US is falling behind.

That was pentagon who said that.  As well, the Su-34 has been spotted with Electronic warfare systems so it is available.  Many Indians that liked the purchases are the same indians that are from abroad (also called NRI's) and are paid for.

All those systems you mentioned, none of them are made in India.  As I said, it will also require US personnel on site in order to maintain such equipment.  I highly doubt Indians wanted that.

Yes i am aware they werent built in India, i tried to point out that its not new practice for India. They are however trying to get as much as they can under "build in India" policy.

Pentagon and "generals" always say that so they get more money from Senate, they did like that always, at least since WW2. There were always certain figures in Defence Department that would cry how US weapons are useless aganist USSR/Russia/China, its just their way to get more money for DARPA and military industry in general.

Its not same if you see SU35/SU34 with jamming pods and dedicated EW platform. Sure those are more than welcome however "real" EW platfom should emerge on SU34 base.

Well Indians always needed foreign help in maintenance especially their navy and air force.

And yet they keep talking about made in India since Modi got it.  Yet he demands more tech transfer from Russia but none from US.  Hmmm, sounds a little odd to me.

Now, imagine those contractors coming from Pakistan and working on India's jets, and then have to go back to Pakistan to work on Pakistan jets.  I wonder how India is going to take that?  As you should be aware by now, India and Pakistan hate each other.  As well, there was a spat from Indians when Russia was ready to sell helicopters and planes to Pakistan.  So how come Russia cannot then sell to both sides if US can?  And what Pakistan wanted was different than what India had or wanted.  What India was gonna get from US is very similar.

There is dedicated EW systems for Su-34: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Fullback.html

SAP-518 and SAP-14

The only purchases that made any sense for India was the Globemasters I believe they are.  Even the P-8 was considered obsolete by US standards and they mocked it.  The tavor sale was a joke and I have seen my fair share of those guns when I was in India.  Then again, I saw so many different types of rifles used by the Indian soldiers/security when I was there, I only imagined the costs on logistics.

India is a nation of heavy corruption.  We had to bribe the soldiers just to let us to our hotel for christ sakes.

Well aware of Indo-Pakistani relations and conflicts, unlike some countries Serbia offers very rich education

India did request tech transfer when they were offered F35 for an examle, but as it was denied they turned to EF2000 and Rafale. They also wanted tech transfer for Javelin, which was denied and then they opted for Spike, which US seems to didnt like. Well US is "big player", noone is questioning their moves, on other hand India expects somewhat of "friendly obedience" from Russia, as they know they are major buyer of Russian equipment while US has so many other more important customers like Turkey, Egypt, Japan, Taiwan, Israel...

Yes, i am aware of pods developed for SU27 family however just attaching them to SU30/SU34 doesnt make it dedicated EW platform. Similar pods can be mounted on almost any fighter, what Russians need is SU34 built with main role of EW with secondary SEAD/Air Defence. With multiple integral pods and hardware on second seat that does data fusion on ELINT and allows you to share obtained enemy radar/radio/jammers positions and data, that allows you to analyse signals recieved and similar.

And many of these systems can pick such info up, hence the greatness of the modifiable of the Sukhoi line of aircrafts.  Issue is with buying US is all the amount of bs strings attached to it.  And yet, no tech transfer but India buys Stinger missiles.  US has a big history of insulting and threatening India, yet India is a slave to US and UK.  Many Indians admit it due to their politicians.  This was brought forward to me by many Indians.  My wife watches and reads Indian news since she is Indian and it is even in their debates about how bad corruption is.  Let me just say, these deals happen because of money.  And there is a reason why Russian jets and equipment is not getting much love for India.  They try to claim it was due to spare parts but we all know that was BS.  It really comes down to the fact that people in power is being paid for by US and UK.  Many influential people from India currently sit in Parliament in UK as an example.

http://russia-insider.com/en/different-folks-why-india-and-us-cant-be-close-allies/ri13656

This is a good read regarding how US treated India and still does.  Yet it is quick to procure from US.  

sepheronx wrote: And many of these systems can pick such info up, hence the greatness of the modifiable of the Sukhoi line of aircrafts.  Issue is with buying US is all the amount of bs strings attached to it.  And yet, no tech transfer but India buys Stinger missiles.  US has a big history of insulting and threatening India, yet India is a slave to US and UK.  Many Indians admit it due to their politicians.  This was brought forward to me by many Indians.  My wife watches and reads Indian news since she is Indian and it is even in their debates about how bad corruption is.  Let me just say, these deals happen because of money.  And there is a reason why Russian jets and equipment is not getting much love for India.  They try to claim it was due to spare parts but we all know that was BS.  It really comes down to the fact that people in power is being paid for by US and UK.  Many influential people from India currently sit in Parliament in UK as an example.

Well that Stinger order was quite small, i am not sure what are they planning to use them with, probably with Apache, which sort of makes sense. And orders for Apache is quite small to justify "build in India". Well yeah corruption exists almost everywhere, Russia, India, Serbia, Greece, Iraq, North Korea, China.... even US however they legalised their corruption by calling it "elections funding" and "corporate aid".

India was always trying to reduce reliance on any side when its about weapons, so i sort of understand them on some purchases, its their country after all and i understand their wish not to be way too dependent on anyone.

Well certain aspects of Indian military and security forces in general are horribly outdated, like their border guard service still using Sterling as main SMG, as procurement of Beretta Beretta MX4 from few years ago was frozen due to corruption scandal.

Militarov wrote:

sepheronx wrote: And many of these systems can pick such info up, hence the greatness of the modifiable of the Sukhoi line of aircrafts.  Issue is with buying US is all the amount of bs strings attached to it.  And yet, no tech transfer but India buys Stinger missiles.  US has a big history of insulting and threatening India, yet India is a slave to US and UK.  Many Indians admit it due to their politicians.  This was brought forward to me by many Indians.  My wife watches and reads Indian news since she is Indian and it is even in their debates about how bad corruption is.  Let me just say, these deals happen because of money.  And there is a reason why Russian jets and equipment is not getting much love for India.  They try to claim it was due to spare parts but we all know that was BS.  It really comes down to the fact that people in power is being paid for by US and UK.  Many influential people from India currently sit in Parliament in UK as an example.

Well that Stinger order was quite small, i am not sure what are they planning to use them with, probably with Apache, which sort of makes sense. And orders for Apache is quite small to justify "build in India". Well yeah corruption exists almost everywhere, Russia, India, Serbia, Greece, Iraq, North Korea, China.... even US however they legalised their corruption by calling it "elections funding" and "corporate aid".

India was always trying to reduce reliance on any side when its about weapons, so i sort of understand them on some purchases, its their country after all and i understand their wish not to be way too dependent on anyone.

Well certain aspects of Indian military and security forces in general are horribly outdated, like their border guard service still using Sterling as main SMG, as procurement of Beretta Beretta MX4 from few years ago was frozen due to corruption scandal.

I don't blame them for diversifying exactly.  I blame them when that leads to absolute head scratching decisions which impact the capabilities of the military, ie: Mi-26 vs Chinook or Tavor vs Anything else, or designing an IFV with a nation that doesn't have nearly as much experience in it.  Some things made sense, but some really did not.  And now considering F-16's when their direct enemy gets them as handouts from US and also services it for them as well, is just absolute pure corruption and a disinterest for their own security.  I saw in the military in India: INSAS, AKM, Tavor and even colts.  It was sad really.  I mean, even talk about potentially buying Tatra's vs thier own Tata trucks is a disgrace for India.  Even if India wanted to purchase Kamaz it would be a disgrace for India and their own industries.

Lets just say, the Make in India campaign isn't what it is cracking out to be.  I will ask more in the future from my brother in law who works in the airforce.  But my general understanding is, corruption runs deep in the head of the government and military.  And Modi may not be, but if all his ministers are, well, good luck getting rid of them.  All other countries are not nearly as bad.  And India isn't nearly as bad as lets say Pakistan.  But it is still bad.

I mean, if they decided to lets say buy a new wheeled APC, then buying from lets say Europe or US under a make in India, then something from Canada like the LAV-3 isn't a bad idea at all. Or if they needed lets say certain technologies, fine. But these decisions are just absolutely pathetic.

Militarov wrote:
Well that Stinger order was quite small, i am not sure what are they planning to use them with, probably with Apache, which sort of makes sense. And orders for Apache is quite small to justify "build in India". Well yeah corruption exists almost everywhere, Russia, India, Serbia, Greece, Iraq, North Korea, China.... even US however they legalised their corruption by calling it "elections funding" and "corporate aid".

India was always trying to reduce reliance on any side when its about weapons, so i sort of understand them on some purchases, its their country after all and i understand their wish not to be way too dependent on anyone.

Well certain aspects of Indian military and security forces in general are horribly outdated, like their border guard service still using Sterling as main SMG, as procurement of Beretta Beretta MX4 from few years ago was frozen due to corruption scandal.

Yes, corruption exists everywhere but that does not mean that they have to keep it that way. The point is the corruption in indian military procurement and import corruption is beyond Serdyukov level, next level would be yelzin.

Although I am not active poster on this forum. I thought this could be a turning point in India U.S and Russky relations

            I thought I could just chip in with some details.

             India U.S defence deals to be signed next week.
             Indo-U.S defence
            deals


           

         

Gaurav wrote:Last year, the Modi govt reached out to the US to discuss the possibility of launching joint production on a new platform to  
          build upon the work Lockheed Martin and Indian industry achieved on the C-130 project and what Boeing and Indian industry will achieve on
          the production of the Apache and Chinook helicopters, recently purchased.

          Ashton Carter on U.S foreign relations

          Indo-U.S fighter jet co-production

          Rafale deal under Modi

As noted in the article, even Australia was denied access to tech for their F-18s/h and transfer of growlers. As well, it appears US wants India to have more than just what the MMRCA deal indicated.

So, regarding Ka-226 deal... It was suspended it seems or at least on hold so far. So all so called deals that Pinto was talking about are just pipe dreams while India cozy's up with US.

In this case, I do not feel bad for Russia selling Mi-35's to Pakistan. If they want Su-35's and other equipment, may be a good idea to sell to them too. If US can do the same, why not Russia? US is making a good bushiness with selling to both sides of the fence.

India is literally entering soon Yelzin era and will fuck it up from within the purpose to disrupt BRICS aswell Indo-russo relationship. They tried the same thing with China and Russia for a century without any results and indians have now a Yelzin era ahead of them.

Werewolf wrote:India is literally entering soon Yelzin era and will fuck it up from within the purpose to disrupt BRICS aswell Indo-russo relationship. They tried the same thing with China and Russia for a century without any results and indians have now a Yelzin era ahead of them.

well bro what is this yelzin era ?

Its too early yet to say but world is changing so is Russia and India in engaging with other countries hitherto there adversaries but i do not see Russia-India relations going to down aany time in near future

But what this axis of Pak-China is being seen in UN against India this would test our relationship with Russia for sure

I don't know why you all are pissing over India's Military diversification. Surely Indian will take the bribe but you can't help. Boeing offered minimum 150 Super Hornets to India 136 for the MMRCA and 14 for their carrier which are way more than 126 aircraft India had sought to purchase under MMRCA tender in the first place.

Werewolf wrote:India is literally entering soon Yelzin era and will fuck it up from within the purpose to disrupt BRICS aswell Indo-russo relationship. They tried the same thing with China and Russia for a century without any results and indians have now a Yelzin era ahead of them.

Essentially this.  The "Make in India" program is so far not a success.  Most projects going on now made in India, were selected prior to Modi.  As well, since then, most to all deals they did with USA was a direct transfer and not made in India, maybe with potentially screw driver assembly which the Ah-64's are (which are also an overpriced helicopter at $113M per helicopter), and the fact the F-18S/H is also a 40 year old design and was even viewed as having drag issues compared to its previous state of the F-18, which some account flies like a boat (F-18 is fine but F-18S/H not so much).  As well, cost of maintenance isn't cheap either:

max steel wrote:I don't know why you all are pissing over India's Military diversification. Surely Indian will take the bribe but you can't help. Boeing offered minimum 150 Super Hornets to India 136 for the MMRCA and 14 for their carrier which are way more than 126 aircraft India had sought to purchase under MMRCA tender in the first place.

which is a joke because why would India need them for their carriers? It would cause a problem for the fact that India currently uses MiG-29KUB for their carriers so it would mean an overlap in capabilities. A waste of money.

Well, F18 Hornets are decent machines, and that is what India seems to seek, something decent that can be dispatched to fleet in quantities, asap. Frenchies are denying tech transfer, their own production cappacities are only 20 per year in full peak... Indians atm have shortage of some 15 squadrons in their Airforce at least. That saying, F18SH (should be far better choice than F16IN which for they were offered tech transfer too), as India wants high performance two engine multirole fighter anyways, so operating costs are not main issue it seems.

Sure, i would like it more if they opted for MiG29M/MiG35 or even SU35 but oh well...

You are ignoring the glaring issues though. Technician specialists and where they would be coming from, and actual tech transfer. I guarantee you India will not get the tech transfer they want. Now Boeing is demanding more jets as minimum.

sepheronx wrote:You are ignoring the glaring issues though.  Technician specialists and where they would be coming from, and actual tech transfer.  I guarantee you India will not get the tech transfer they want.  Now Boeing is demanding more jets as minimum.

Well IF they get full tech transfer than there will be no significant needs to outsource technicans and maintenance except some spares that would come from the foreign suppliers, as most countries that even get full tech transfer decide to buy certain devices anyways to reduce own spending. Naturally lets first see what happens in terms of tech transfer and whole contract.