Russian Army ATGM Thread

TheArmenian wrote:

medo wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDILIqFMYuc

Rare video of Krizanthema. Seems from army unit, although they don't have bort numbers.

More on the Khrizanthema

Nice video. I think search radar in battery CP is quite small. It should be bigger one to see targets on longer range for better target delivery to fire vehicles.

alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

Khrizantema is really dangerous thing. Gadafi troops where on the receiving end of this beast in the last stages in Libyan war.
Russia recently delivered small batch of Khrizantemas to new Libyan government.
Some pictures
http://milinme.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/chrysanthemums-to-libya/

d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.

Rpg type 7v wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.

There is a little problem. SHORADs will be few kilometers behind tanks, not in the same line. Kkrizantema missiles fly fast and low, straight to the tank and not high and slow as Javelin. SHORADs and MANPADs will not be able to fire on Kornet or Khrizantema missiles, if they don't want to fire on and kill their own forces in front of them, specially when infantry is outside. Not to say it is very hard to lock a missile, which fly around 1 m over ground.

to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

Ballistic forces take over from what?

Ballistic forces are relevant from muzzle to target impact.

The 2.5km range is chosen mostly because it is so called medium range... ie generally just outside the limit of small arms fire.

It means that when used in the vast majority of cases like most weapons in this class the range and penetration requirements make it fully man portable but allow engagement of a range of enemy targets outside of small arms range... like MG posts, Sniper positions, and light bunkers or fortified rooms in buildings.

however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

Targeting is fully automatic like Kornet-EM which leaves the pilot free to manouver the aircraft over a fairly wide range of angles after launch. The relative high speed of the missile means less time involved in guidance.

also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.

420m/s is the average speed over 6km range target engagements.

The air launched Krisantema is reported to fly faster and have a range of 8km, but its replacement... HERMES will be the standard anti armour weapon where the ground forces are firing back... and at 1,000m/s peak speed targets out to 16-18km will not have much time to react and little chance of seeing the helo that attacked them let alone shooting back.

Medo of course raises several relevant points too... as usual....  

medo wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.

There is a little problem. SHORADs will be few kilometers behind tanks, not in the same line. Kkrizantema missiles fly fast and low, straight to the tank and not high and slow as Javelin. SHORADs and MANPADs will not be able to fire on Kornet or Khrizantema missiles, if they don't want to fire on and kill their own forces in front of them, specially when infantry is outside. Not to say it is very hard to lock a missile, which fly around 1 m over ground.

i wasnt talking about hitting the missiles at all it seems you cant read , i was talking about anihilating the attack helicopter which is in the open, you kill it and you also break the chain and missiles have lost guidance and have become useless and miss thier targets...

Rpg type 7v wrote:

medo wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:alittle off topic, but i think the AT-15 is an awesome anti tank missle although expensive, but when the missle
is put to use as the  9P157-2 Khrizantema-S tank destroyer (BMP-3), now this does get scary. (pretty good bit at 1.40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjLMwpwEw

to answer to you and garry there is a reason max ranges if infantry atgm are about 2,5km... after 2000m the accuracy of tank rounds starts to drop more and more as they slow down and balistic forces take over.

khrizantema is supersonic 400m /s and has the highest range out there of modern atgms - 6km.

however lack of fire and forget capability is a serious flaw that puts helicopters in great danger because they have to stay up and keep line of sight for targeting.

In modern battlefield tanks are followed by shorad and all new shorad systems and manpads that accompany tanks have much longer ranges and 2-3 times faster missiles then khrizantema.
also important to note is that average speed from 0-6000m is less then 300m/s so engagment times on max range will be about 20s. tooo long.

There is a little problem. SHORADs will be few kilometers behind tanks, not in the same line. Kkrizantema missiles fly fast and low, straight to the tank and not high and slow as Javelin. SHORADs and MANPADs will not be able to fire on Kornet or Khrizantema missiles, if they don't want to fire on and kill their own forces in front of them, specially when infantry is outside. Not to say it is very hard to lock a missile, which fly around 1 m over ground.

i wasnt talking about hitting the missiles at all it seems you cant read , i was talking about anihilating the attack helicopter which is in the open, you kill it and you also break the chain and missiles have lost guidance and have become useless and miss thier targets...

You talk about Khrizantema, which is ground based ATGM mounted on BMP-3 chassis. There is no helicopter Khrizantema missile yet and I doubt it will ever be. Helicopters have longer range ATGMs. Ataka have 8 km range, Vikhr have 10 km range, Hermes will have even longer range, so they will be practically also out of range of SHORADs and MANPADs, considering they are few km behind tanks. Here is actually the point of BMPT kind of vehicles to support tanks in the first lines, which should have ATGM like Kornet-EM with 10 km range. They will actually keep helicopters out of their effective range, being with guided missiles or fire and forget missiles.

you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters... 

Did you see any Khrizantema missile on a helicopter? Russia restart production of Vikhr missiles for Ka-52 in the mean time that Hermes is ready for production. If they will place Khrizantema on helicopter, it will for sure have increased range to at least 10 km if not more. Khrizanthema will be relevant for Mi-28, when it will get its radar mounted. For now Ataka is good enough.

Rpg type 7v wrote:you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters... 

Not exactly. Khrizanthema is to replace Ataka and Shturm atgms on Shturm-S ground based ATGM complex mounted in MT-LB vehicle.

Love your posts Mindstorm, big fan  

i wasnt talking about hitting the missiles at all it seems you cant read , i was talking about anihilating the attack helicopter which is in the open, you kill it and you also break the chain and missiles have lost guidance and have become useless and miss thier targets...

Krisantema is a MMW radar guided missile, though in its ground based form is SARH rather than ARH. It has a backup laser beam riding guidance option, but will likely operate in a SARH mode in the air launched model... which means the helo can pop up and fire its missile and then drop down behind cover with only its mast mounted MMW radar sticking up marking the target... what sort of western air defence system can lock on to such a target at 6-8km range let alone score a hit?

deviations of round at those ranges become more pronounced from IFV tanks and small arms are out of range ofcourse, giving at crew more chanses of survival

You haven't said why. For laser beam riding missiles from Russian tanks 2.5km would be the distance where they are just starting to become more useful than an APFSDS round in terms of lethality and cost as APFSDS lethality starts to drop off, but the accuracy of the autotracker remains very high and of course the HEAT warhead remains lethal at any range.

kornet em still needs inputs its ACLOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACLOS#Automatic_Command_to_Line-Of-Sight_.28ACLOS.29

Did you even read the link you provided?

Target tracking, missile tracking and control are automatic.

So tracking the target, tracking the outgoing missile, and controlling the missile so it hits the target are all automatic... the only input required is to lock on the target and to fire... the rest is... as you prove... automatic.

It is fire and forget in the sense that the operator just needs to fire and the missile should hit... it is very much like an IR guided missile or a TV guided missile except some of the guidance mechanism remains on the launcher.... the expensive bits so that the missile itself can be cheap and usable.

cant wait to see hermes i think it shall be very good. but guidance still seems like an issue in russian army

There will be at least four different guided models using IIR, MMW radar, Glonass guided, and SALH, though they might combine different guidance options to make them more flexible.

When it enters air and land and navy service it will be a very powerful system.

you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters...

They have said that, and that would be a good idea, but there is no evidence it will happen.

Certainly Kris has all the advantages of ATAKA with better range, speed, penetration, and the MMW radar guidance option, plus laser beam riding guidance, while ATAKA is radio command guidance with one laser beam riding model suggested for Ka-52... though it seems Vikhr won that contest.

BTW Great post as usual MINDSTORM...

Of course the huge irony is that with QWIP based Thermal imagers printed like CDs in 5-10 years time a thermal imaging CCD sensor of the sort used in digital cameras that can see in thermal frequencies will be about a dollar a chip so you can have a seeker in your missile and your launcher with much much better resolution.

Right now the sensors in Javelin in the missile and the launcher are the same and are designed to be as cheap as possible, which means they are no good for long range or high resolution but they are still expensive.

In 5-10 years such sensors will be cheap and you could put them in RPG rockets with a small cheap CPU so you can aim the weapon.. zoom in and get a lock on some digital image and then fire the rocket which will then home in on that particular target... fully passive and all weather, day/night.

Right now Javelin is enormously expensive and does certainly replace Dragon III, but would not be good enough to replace Metis-M1.

medo wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters... 

Not exactly. Khrizanthema is to replace Ataka and Shturm atgms on Shturm-S ground based ATGM complex mounted in MT-LB vehicle.

so according to you khrizantema is a failed project and billions blown for design and production out of which nothing will come .ok .

GarryB wrote:

i wasnt talking about hitting the missiles at all it seems you cant read , i was talking about anihilating the attack helicopter which is in the open, you kill it and you also break the chain and missiles have lost guidance and have become useless and miss thier targets...

Krisantema is a MMW radar guided missile, though in its ground based form is SARH rather than ARH. It has a backup laser beam riding guidance option, but will likely operate in a SARH mode in the air launched model... which means the helo can pop up and fire its missile and then drop down behind cover with only its mast mounted MMW radar sticking up marking the target... what sort of western air defence system can lock on to such a target at 6-8km range let alone score a hit?

deviations of round at those ranges become more pronounced from IFV tanks and small arms are out of range ofcourse, giving at crew more chanses of survival

You haven't said why. For laser beam riding missiles from Russian tanks 2.5km would be the distance where they are just starting to become more useful than an APFSDS round in terms of lethality and cost as APFSDS lethality starts to drop off, but the accuracy of the autotracker remains very high and of course the HEAT warhead remains lethal at any range.

kornet em still needs inputs its ACLOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACLOS#Automatic_Command_to_Line-Of-Sight_.28ACLOS.29

Did you even read the link you provided?

Target tracking, missile tracking and control are automatic.

So tracking the target, tracking the outgoing missile, and controlling the missile so it hits the target are all automatic... the only input required is to lock on the target and to fire... the rest is... as you prove... automatic.

It is fire and forget in the sense that the operator just needs to fire and the missile should hit... it is very much like an IR guided missile or a TV guided missile except some of the guidance mechanism remains on the launcher.... the expensive bits so that the missile itself can be cheap and usable.

cant wait to see hermes i think it shall be very good. but guidance still seems like an issue in russian army

There will be at least four different guided models using IIR, MMW radar, Glonass guided, and SALH, though they might combine different guidance options to make them more flexible.

When it enters air and land and navy service it will be a very powerful system.

you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters...

They have said that, and that would be a good idea, but there is no evidence it will happen.

Certainly Kris has all the advantages of ATAKA with better range, speed, penetration, and the MMW radar guidance option, plus laser beam riding guidance, while ATAKA is radio command guidance with one laser beam riding model suggested for Ka-52... though it seems Vikhr won that contest.

BTW Great post as usual MINDSTORM...

Of course the huge irony is that with QWIP based Thermal imagers printed like CDs in 5-10 years time a thermal imaging CCD sensor of the sort used in digital cameras that can see in thermal frequencies will be about a dollar a chip so you can have a seeker in your missile and your launcher with much much better resolution.

Right now the sensors in Javelin in the missile and the launcher are the same and are designed to be as cheap as possible, which means they are no good for long range or high resolution but they are still expensive.

In 5-10 years such sensors will be cheap and you could put them in RPG rockets with a small cheap CPU so you can aim the weapon.. zoom in and get a lock on some digital image and then fire the rocket which will then home in on that particular target... fully passive and all weather, day/night.

Right now Javelin is enormously expensive and does certainly replace Dragon III, but would not be good enough to replace Metis-M1.

you cant read and hear only what you want ,you have an agenda and its useless to argue with strongheaded person. Repeat after me - ACLOS IS NOT FIRE AND FORGET !
ACLOS still means the launcher has to kep line of sight , it still sends command inputs to the launched missile , but its done by a computer in the launch platform.
Lets see how metis works in forest or tall grass or behind fenses of buildings , how well will the wire do?? 

Rpg type 7v wrote:

medo wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters... 

Not exactly. Khrizanthema is to replace Ataka and Shturm atgms on Shturm-S ground based ATGM complex mounted in MT-LB vehicle.

so according to you khrizantema is a failed project and billions blown for design and production out of which nothing will come .ok .

What are you talking about? Khrizantema is a ground based ATGM designed as tank hunter. It's not a failed project, it's a replacement for old Shturm-S. What do you not understand here?

Just ignore him Medo, as you can see in the Pantsir thread he is trying to be argumentative for no reason.

medo wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:

medo wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:you dont know what you are talking about ,khrizantema is to replace ataka and shturm and older atgm missiles on helicopters... 

Not exactly. Khrizanthema is to replace Ataka and Shturm atgms on Shturm-S ground based ATGM complex mounted in MT-LB vehicle.

so according to you khrizantema is a failed project and billions blown for design and production out of which nothing will come .ok .

What are you talking about? Khrizantema is a ground based ATGM designed as tank hunter. It's not a failed project, it's a replacement for old Shturm-S. What do you not understand here?

1.its ok ,so older command guided systems requireing line of sight will remain on helicopters, who will still again be vulnerable to shorad. krizantema was used as an newest example.
2. then i dont get why khrizantema was developed at all , why not continue using sturm and ataka on ground vehicles as on attack helicopters?

TR1 wrote:Just ignore him Medo, as you can see in the Pantsir thread he is trying to be argumentative for no reason.

ahh the resident troll emerges.  nope you lost in pantcir thread. 

Khrizantema was developed to be ground based tank hunter ATGM. It was not developed as helicopter ATGM same as Kornet was not developed as helicopter ATGM. Point is, that Khrizantema could with radar ACLOS mode work in any weather, what Konkurs and Shturm-S could not.

so according to you khrizantema is a failed project and billions blown for design and production out of which nothing will come .ok .

Krisantema is the natural replacement for ATAKA and hardly cost billions... it was made by the same company that makes ATAKA and Shturm.

Repeat after me - ACLOS IS NOT FIRE AND FORGET !
ACLOS still means the launcher has to kep line of sight , it still sends command inputs to the launched missile , but its done by a computer in the launch platform.

Repeat after me FIRE AND FORGET means the weapon is fired and requires no further INPUT from the operator. ACLOS is a type of fire and forget.

Lets see how metis works in forest or tall grass or behind fenses of buildings , how well will the wire do??

If you can't see your target how do you aim at it in the first place?

It is called tactics and is one of the advantages of holding the high ground.

How does Javelin get a lock on a target hidden in a forest or behind fences?

Thermal sights can't see through trees or fences either.

More importantly to fire in fire and forget mode it needs a clean lock on in thermal mode and when the targets engine is not running odds are it will not get a lock so most of the time it will have to be fired in CLOS mode... the same as Metis-M1

1.its ok ,so older command guided systems requireing line of sight will remain on helicopters, who will still again be vulnerable to shorad. krizantema was used as an newest example.

Krisantema is planned as a replacement for ATAKA on the Mi-28M, and like the air launched ATAKA will outrange most SHORAD.

The Krisantema will be carried in clusters of 8 launch tubes, while the much larger and heavier HERMES will be also available... a bit like on the Cobra where TOW and Hellfire could be carried... the difference being that the Krisantema is rather better than TOW and HERMES is better than Hellfire.

2. then i dont get why khrizantema was developed at all , why not continue using sturm and ataka on ground vehicles as on attack helicopters?

Because it is better than both Shturm and Ataka and will be fitted to helicopters when they are routinely using MMW radar sensors.

nope you lost in pantcir thread.

Just ego for you isn't it.  

Point is, that Khrizantema could with radar ACLOS mode work in any weather, what Konkurs and Shturm-S could not.

It has higher speed, longer range, a larger, more powerful warhead, and can work in a range of conditions that would prevent the use of Shturm or Ataka or Konkurs... like monsoon rain, fog, heavy snow, white out, brown out, dust storm etc etc.

May I ask You why You consider Javelin as a benchmark of fire and forget ATGM. You know, in all in my army years I've only seen Javelin few times and they were not carried by grunts everyday. They are transported in Humvees. Fragile and expensive. Totally worthless in ranges we usually have. Even in polygon You could reach targets with Carl Gustav or AT4. And they are reliable, not fragile and there are more soldiers who are equiped with them. That's why European countries who have wooden terrain have little use of 2500m range Javelin offers. Tank warfare would be limited and Bill, Euro Spike ane NLAW is better suited than slow reaction time Javelin. I personal like NLAW as rather simple, quick to use short range ATGM. While Javelin could be used in an ambush I see very limited use of it in a warfare. It would be unguided hand held weapons that would do all the fighting. If my incompetent MOD would have any brain we would order NLAW rather useless stuff we get.

Lithuania should just order Russian weapons instead of all these overpriced Swedish/European/American equipment.
For things like ATGMs, small arms, even armoured vehicles and tanks - Russian equipment won't be at a disadvantage fighting against other Russian equipment; it'll work as well as anything else.

Of course as large sections of Baltic states economies are owned by Swedish banks; it makes sense that they'll buy from them.

flamming_python wrote:Lithuania should just order Russian weapons instead of all these overpriced Swedish/European/American equipment.
For things like ATGMs, small arms, even armoured vehicles and tanks - Russian equipment won't be at a disadvantage fighting against other Russian equipment; it'll work as well as anything else.

Of course as large sections of Baltic states economies are owned by Swedish banks; it makes sense that they'll buy from them.

Now Swedish weapons are good, not better than Russian, although made with qualitive and yes they are expensive. I dont think the swedish banks control weapons buying, rather NATO standards and demands...
The Carl Gustav M48/86 is a great weapon, and my personal favorite on the firing range! Sold to over 40 countries its no wonder Baltic or other states wants them.

I wouldn't say all European weapons are overpriced. Carl Gustav is amazing launcher and cheap, G36 rifles without optics are cheap and not to mention second hand systems. Nordic banks have little to do with what we can buy. Their hegemony only started recently anyway. They are invading other countries as well. NATO has stupid rules about standards. Somehow it works different from country to country and we are limited. Meh. Politics also play big role. Americans are not loving us like they love Georgia so no free stuff any time soon. Maybe we will get some useless MRAPs from Afghanistan one day.
Most of Russian ATGM would be overkill as ranges are short, tank warfare would be limited. Urban warfare would be common too.
From Russian weapons I would definetly be interested in Metis-M (light, cheap, reliable), Kord(we simply don't have anything like it), Ags-30( our Mk.19 is too heavy to carry it around), Nona-m mortar(120mm with such compact size and mobility), 2A45 Sprut towed gun (I still think that anti tank guns could be used in defensive scenario). They would fill in gaps and suplement army more than few tanks or IFVs. More expensive, but in dire need would be new Mi-8 helicopters and Yak-130 jets. Soon there will be no pilots at all to fly them. We don't need other equipment. I see no point to be a chess figure of US wars in 'stans. For defence and territorial integrity it's enough.
Russian Kalashnikovs, PKMs are still being used by part time warriors, border guards, interior troops. They are getting old and look like something from Stalker. I'm sure they will still be used for ages.
I'm not warmonger myself, less offensive weapons we have the safer we are.