Russian Army ATGM Thread

Thanks for your extensive reply, Gary

The reason I emphasise portability is due to the need to move quickly in ambush engagements and a 63 kg platform would be a pain to move. I mis-calculated the weight of each component of the Kornet E; I was under the impression that the 1PN79-1 thermal sight included the laser designator but that's embodied in a separate system in the 1P45-1 sight-tracker. It's clear that I was wrong about the Kornet and what could reasonably be achieved with it. I believe that an improved variant of the Metis-M1 could be improved rather inexpensively to exploit its portability and lethality:


a) This Metis-M1 variant could have its guidance updated with fiber-optics -- replacing its current wire link, thereby increasing range. It has the same potential -as the Spike LR- (12.7 kg) to have a range of 5 km

b) It could work in concert with small, inexpensive tactical drones to provide an image of the targets in the battle space and the missile itself during its entire flight. Such tactical drones would be very useful with the inclusion of an auto-tracker similar to that of the Kornet-D only that it would use jam-resistant radio guidance

c) It could be provided with a top-attack mode to fire safely behind cover and exploit terrain and not be constrained by it; in its direct mode it could travel 5 meters above the ground to avoid obstructions and fly 30 meters above the ground to overcome the limits of terrain. With its 900-950mm of penetration it could destroy any MBT.

d) A soft launch ability would further increase its utility in confined spaces

This Metis-M1 variant would retain its inexpensive guidance and all its current components while gaining new abilities and greater flexibility without being prohibitively expensive.

Sup guys, i am having a hard time finding info on the latest variant of the Konkurs, the 9N131M2-1, the only thing i found was some mention of it when IS fighter captured some.
That one showed a manufacturing date of 2006.

ΑΤGM missiles Fagot or Konkurs against Leopard2-A4

George1 wrote:ΑΤGM missiles Fagot or Konkurs against Leopard2-A4

Konkurs i believe.

I wonder what the fanboys have to say about this

Seems to have hit the ammo... so the result is what happens to any tank hit in its ammo bin...

I am sure the fanbois will say that is an old model tank and all those problems are fixed now....

does anyone know how many of the following are in service?


Kornet-D
Kornet-T
Khrizantema-S (bmp-3)
BRDM-2 with Konkurs
BRDM-2 with Shturm
BRDM-2 with Fagot
BRDM-2 with Malyutka/sagger

and has any Metis system been mounted on any vehicle?

Sorry, I don't have any figures for you, but Shturm was never fitted to the BRDM vehicle.

the version that carried Konkurs could also carry Faggot as they shared a launcher design (the BMP-2 eventually got a dual launcher that could fire either too)

The Ataka and Shturm was carried on a modified MTLB and was called Shturm-S.

Like the BRDM-3 with Konkurs and Faggot it could fire both missile types including mixes of the different weapons.

I actually quite like the BRDM-3... with its missile launcher fully retracted it just looked like a BRDM-2 minus the turret.

GarryB wrote:Sorry, I don't have any figures for you, but Shturm was never fitted to the BRDM vehicle.

the version that carried Konkurs could also carry Faggot as they shared a launcher design (the BMP-2 eventually got a dual launcher that could fire either too)

The Ataka and Shturm was carried on a modified MTLB and was called Shturm-S.

Like the BRDM-3 with Konkurs and Faggot it could fire both missile types including mixes of the different weapons.

I actually quite like the BRDM-3... with its missile launcher fully retracted it just looked like a BRDM-2 minus the turret.

ok thanks for the information and but what systems are still in service?

d_taddei2 wrote:

GarryB wrote:Sorry, I don't have any figures for you, but Shturm was never fitted to the BRDM vehicle.

the version that carried Konkurs could also carry Faggot as they shared a launcher design (the BMP-2 eventually got a dual launcher that could fire either too)

The Ataka and Shturm was carried on a modified MTLB and was called Shturm-S.

Like the BRDM-3 with Konkurs and Faggot it could fire both missile types including mixes of the different weapons.

I actually quite like the BRDM-3... with its missile launcher fully retracted it just looked like a BRDM-2 minus the turret.

ok thanks for the information and but what systems are still in service?

Shturm-S - ~900
BRDM-2 with Konkurs - ~100
BTR-RD - ~100 (reported switching to Kornet from Konkurs)
Khrizantema-S - >100 (in production)
Kornet-D - >100 (in production)

franco wrote:

Shturm-S - ~900
BRDM-2 with Konkurs - ~100
BTR-RD - ~100 (reported switching to Kornet from Konkurs)
Khrizantema-S - >100 (in production)
Kornet-D - >100 (in production)

Has there been a significant number of upgrades of the Shturm-S to SME level ? AFAIK the original Shturm-S lacks in night fighting or adverse weather capabilities, where as the SM(E) upgrade introduced the capability to fire the improved Shturm variants such as Ataka, while also adding thermal imaging. Please correct me if i am wrong.

Also, is there any info about the BMP-3 based Kornet-D (Kornet-P ?) platform ? AFAIK only the Tigr based platform has been adopted?

0nillie0 wrote:

Has there been a significant number of upgrades of the Shturm-S to SME level ? AFAIK the original Shturm-S lacks in night fighting or adverse weather capabilities, where as the SM(E) upgrade introduced the capability to fire the improved Shturm variants such as Ataka, while also adding thermal imaging. Please correct me if i am wrong.

Also, is there any info about the BMP-3 based Kornet-D (Kornet-P ?) platform ? AFAIK only the Tigr based platform has been adopted?

There are SME's level but how many??

Have not seen BMP-3 Kornet-D and with limited bodies being produced don't expect to. Bigger weapon needs larger delivery system.

0nillie0 wrote:Also, is there any info about the BMP-3 based Kornet-D (Kornet-P ?) platform ? AFAIK only the Tigr based platform has been adopted?

It's called the Kornet-T and yes it has been adopted, and before the Kornet-D (the Tigr based platform). Some parties have been produced and sent to units.

A Polish military journal lists 18 of them of having been introduced into service last year;
https://altyn73.livejournal.com/2018/03/13/

But another batch had already been introduced years earlier; according to this article:
http://www.military-today.com/missiles/kornet_t.htm

Khrizantema-S of Azerbaijani Army in action.



Azerbaijani Khrizantemas are equipped with the new 1K118P sight from Peleng.

Artillery units of Western MD receive a batch of Shturm-S anti-tank self-propelled systems

http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12174873@egNews

George1 wrote:Artillery units of Western MD receive a batch of Shturm-S anti-tank self-propelled systems

http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12174873@egNews

Just tell me these are not new build as it would make 0 sense whatsoever.

Just tell me these are not new build as it would make 0 sense whatsoever.

There is no reason why they could not have unified the design... Shturm can fire both Shturm and Ataka... and the only thing the Krisantema adds is slightly more range.

I would suspect that a supersonic missile able to hit helicopters and ground vehicles with a range of 6km is plenty for most targets and mass produced in enormous numbers over the years for the Hind...

They are rather better than any TOW or HOT based western system, and would still be very useful against a range of targets... their command guidance is incredibly cheap, and performance is pretty good for all models.

As a note... modern helos carry DIRCMS to stop IR and optically guided missiles... which would have no effect on Shturm or Ataka or Krisantema...

SHTURM-S system has been out of production for many many years. The current production is KHRIZANTEMA.

The MTLB tracked vehicle  on which  SHTURM is based was made in what is now Ukraine. Production of that vehicle ceased a long time ago.

The re-equipment of that unit is from stored Shturm systems.

Propably refurbished.

In that case I suspect it is a stopgap system until I would presume a new equivalent vehicle is developed... I would think a Kurganets vehicle platform would be a bit heavy, but then I also would suspect for each different unit the MTLB vehicle base will be replaced by the relevant design... Armata in an armata brigade/division, Kurganets in a kurganets brigade/division, Boomerang in a boomerang brigade/division, and Typhoon in a typhoon brigade/division.

In such a case this is temporary gap filling.

Of course with similar replacements for all other platforms I would think there would be a large number of vehicles that with new technology could actually operate effectively on their own as their communications and targeting mean they could operate independently... a good example would be the 2S1, which would normally be operating in a group and move to a predetermined area of level ground to fire a volley and then move to a new location before retaliation rounds hit... with the upgrade of communications and ballistics and navigation equipment you could have 6 vehicles in 6 different places receiving the order to fire and they could fire independently from their location to synchronise the impacts to all the round arrived together but from totally different locations... which they will immediately move away from...

For artillery that is an advantage... for air defence it would be better, but for anti armour is that better?

Perhaps a 4 tube launch arm that can fire on four targets and engage 4 separate targets at one time and then move... a higher energy rocket motor and perhaps ramjet sustainer to increase velocity by three times, with auto trackers to follow the targets and missiles and command guidance or laser beam riding guidance...

BTW is ATAKA still in production... it was a useful missile... not every target requires the extra penetration of the Krisantema...

Of course ATAKA missile is in production. It is used on the Sturm-S system, the BMPT Terminator, the Uran-9 Robot and on the attack helicopters (Mi-28, Ka-52 etc.) etc. etc.

KHRIZANTEMA is entering production very slowly partly because it is expensive and partly because the ATAKA is still very good.

Note that the Shturm-S system has replaced the older SHTURM missile with the ATAKA.

Actually thinking about it... there are not really any other ATGM carrier platforms anywhere else on a tank vehicle chassis like an Armata... people talk about light wheeled vehicles with tank guns but I think platforms with ATGMs... ie tank level fire power are much more interesting... especially with Shturm and Ataka missiles, which would actually make rather good SAMs as well as anti armour missiles.

The new Krisantema has an enlarged nose to cater for the bigger 152mm calibre warhead... would be interesting if they made the body fatter with a more powerful rocket motor with greater speed and range...

But for now Ataka are accurate and powerful enough for 95% of targets, have good speed and range, and are cheap enough to be used in enormous numbers...

I wonder what the costs of the command guidance system for ATAKA and Krisantema are, and how they compare with the laser beam riding guidance of Kornet and most Soviet tank launched 125mm gun missile rounds... it seems strange that the heavy aircraft launched missiles seem to have less range than the improved land based Kornet...

Ahh, well... when Hermes gets into service its very high speed and much greater range will change things around a bit... I do suspect the ATAKA will remain the chosen UCAV missile for its size and cost, with performance that is good enough.

The 9M120-1 Ataka-1 hastwo guidance systems: radio command and laser-beam riding. In production since 2010. Intended for the Ka-52 and... wait for it!... the 9K132 Shturm-SM. Maybe this Shturm systems were modernised to this standard.

Khrizantema has dual laser beam riding & radar guidance. The only similarity between Khrizantema and ATAKA is that they are both supersonic missiles.