INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

Presumably not.

Kalibrs are slow enough that by the time they reach thier target all of the enemy's major istalations witch thier defences are no doubt concentrated around would be smouldering craters.

So there is no you cold lounch your Kalibrs half an hour early an they would still arrive a few hours after your enemy cannot defend itself.

The only targets that need to be urgently and rapidly hit are the main radars for the ABM system in Europe and the main radars at fylingdales in the UK... the former can be hit with Kinzhal launched from the Black sea... it doesn't need to kill the radar directly before the ABM missiles are launched... an air burst nuke above europe would blind the radars and dampen down communications for a good period of time.

Kinzhal would be useful for directly taking out the radar because of its speed and its ability to manouver means it could effectively evade being shot down... the rest of the targets in europe can be engaged cheaply and easily using low cost cruise missiles...

Ground based extended range Iskanders could then take on the US AEGIS class cruisers at a time when they will be focussed upwards looking for Russian warheads heading over the north pole... sub and ship launched Zircons could also be cleaning them up in the arctic ocean, the northern pacific and the med.

Avangard will be their fastest missile delivery system so it could target many critical things too... and when the newstart treaty is not extended or replaced they can just make enormous numbers of warheads and pile them into missiles they make like sausages... and sell some to Iran and China too.

Few days after withdrawing from INF, US gets a new present from Putin: with Zirkon, Russia potentially will not need to duplicate coastal defence and land attack. If a launcher is developed for Kalibr, then it should be compatible with Zirkon too, being able to surpass both Iskander and Bastion many times in terms of range and speed, and putting any target 1000+ km from the Russian border at risk of being obliterated in 10 minutes time, without need for any planes to take off or give further indication of an impending attack.

What a brilliant decision from US

I've been out of the loop but what is Gzur II and where is the first one?

miketheterrible wrote:I've been out of the loop but what is Gzur II and where is the first one?

The domestic version of Brahmos II?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point. But English isn't your first language so it isn't your fault.

below there is your original quote.  Enlighten me how you gonna  reach ABM before interceptors   are launched?

miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.

NATO lacks a proper iads. Kalibrs fly low, not high. They terrain hug. ABM sites are more high and very high altitude. As evident in Syria, the cruise missiles will only be engaged within very close proximity, within about 20km. Saturated attack and those ABM sites and defense systems are gonners.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I've been out of the loop but what is Gzur II and where is the first one?

GZUR is name given by press to a new class of hypersonic CMs , airborne ones. They supposed to weight ~1,500kg, range ~1,500km speed 6-8Ma phase I.


By end of 2020s Phase II should enter service. No specs discussed anywhere only a quote form military that speed shllbe 12-14Ma

BTW since missile is to fit 6x on internal  weapons by of Tu-22 ti cannot be longer than 4,8m

Ok thanks. But where is first one though? Not in use?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I've been out of the loop but what is Gzur II and where is the first one?

GZUR is name given by press to a new class of hypersonic CMs , airborne ones. They supposed to weight ~1,500kg, range ~1,500km speed 6-8Ma phase I.


By end of 2020s Phase II should enter service. No specs discussed anywhere only a quote form military that speed shllbe 12-14Ma

BTW since missile is to fit 6x on internal  weapons by of Tu-22 ti cannot be longer than 4,8m

Ok thanks. But where is first one though? Not in use?

Being still developed

Any more info on it?

LMFS wrote:Few days after withdrawing from INF, US gets a new present from Putin: with Zirkon, Russia potentially will not need to duplicate coastal defence and land attack. If a launcher is developed for Kalibr, then it should be compatible with Zirkon too, being able to surpass both Iskander and Bastion many times in terms of range and speed, and putting any target 1000+ km from the Russian border at risk of being obliterated in 10 minutes time, without need for any planes to take off or give further indication of an impending attack.

What a brilliant decision from US  

And today yet another good news for the US side: Kalibr-M with 4500 km range also to be made in land-based version  

http://tass.com/defense/1046090

In a war Zirkon and Kinzhal (and other hypersonic missiles) will be used against the most important Targets (ABM sites, command posts and so on), just like Mike said. Our slow and reliable Kalibers will be used against warehouses, fuel depots, bridges, power stations, train stations… Things that are fixed and important to wage a war.

Are there submunition warheads for the Kalibr and other Russian missiles? They would do wonders on those unprotected air bases all over Europe...

Tochka and Iskander both have a cluster munition warhead... the latter was reportedly used in Georgia to hit a group of tanks all parked together during the conflict.

An important point many are also missing... with precision guidance these weapons can be fitted with conventional warheads so could be used in response to a conventional or less than strategic issue...

So US supported Ukrainian invasion to take back the Crimea, or eastern ukraine... and US forces in Europe could be targeted...

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:Are there submunition warheads for the Kalibr and other Russian missiles? They would do wonders on those unprotected air bases all over Europe...

I bet on something less protected but no less important - railway stations, transport corridors/  logistic hubs , power stations, communication centers,.

Without roads, power , water and comms your logistics is in deep shit. How long you cn support your troops?

Any area target can be devastated with those warheads of course. But no, air bases in Europe are not so extremely well defended targets against hypersonic missiles. I agree that there are many nodes of critical infrastructure that can be targeted, impeding to sustain war. But the most interesting for Russia would be to stop the aggression before it even begins, and without air force NATO would not even be able to get started.

@Hole, GarryB: thanks for answering

Again:

PS. That shows us how far the russian forces have come in the last decade. In 2008 they were using Tu-22M3 bombers to target enemy air bases with simple dumb bombs. Today they would use some tactical or strategic cruise missiles or (in a few years) glide bombs to destroy them.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

LMFS wrote:

Without roads, power , water and comms your logistics is in deep shit. How long you cn support your troops?

Any area target can be devastated with those warheads of course. But no, air bases in Europe are not so extremely well defended targets against hypersonic missiles. I agree that there are many nodes of critical infrastructure that can be targeted, impeding to sustain war. But the most interesting for Russia would be to stop the aggression before it even begins, and without air force NATO would not even be able to get started.

I agree but then  you need something that can deliver blow in matter of minutes not hours...[/quote]


However, for any of these advantages to be effective a large number of missiles is necessary and for a mass attack to be launched
on short notice if NATO starts its invasion attempt.