INF Treaty - coming to the end of its life

Russia began to develop medium-range ground-based missiles

Russia began to develop medium-range ground-based missiles. This was announced by Deputy Foreign Minister Sergey Ryabkov during his speech at a panel session of the Munich Security Conference.


"Russia began scientific, technical and development work in this area, like the United States," the TASS quoted the diplomat on Saturday, February 16 . Ryabkov recalled that in early February, Russian leader Vladimir Putin said that Russia would not deploy medium and shorter range missiles anywhere until Washington did.

“What to do next is to be decided by the United States,” summed up the deputy minister. It depends on Washington whether the security of Europe and the USA will be threatened, but Russia will observe a unilateral moratorium. According to the diplomat, the risk that, due to the position of the United States, START-3 will cease to operate in 2021, is growing.

On February 15, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov said that if the United States withdraws from the Treaty on the Elimination of Intermediate-Range and Shorter-Range Missiles (INF), Russia will take adequate measures in response to any threats from the United States.

From February 2, Washington suspended fulfillment of obligations under the INF Treaty and began the exit process, reserving the right to return within six months. Moscow responded on the same day to suspend participation in the treaty. Russian leader Vladimir Putin endorsed a proposal by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu to begin developing a medium-range, hypersonic ground-based missile.

American leader Donald Trump announced his intention to withdraw from the INF Treaty in October 2018 under the pretext of Moscow’s failure to comply with the document’s points and the presence of the 9M729 missile, which, in his opinion, violates the document’s conditions. In January, the Russian Ministry of Defense for the first time showed this missile to foreign military attaches, representatives of the United States and several European countries refused to participate in the briefing.

The INF Treaty was concluded between the USSR and the USA in December 1987 and entered into force in June 1988. The document prohibits the two countries to produce and deploy ballistic and cruise missiles of medium (damage zone 1–5.5 thousand km) and shorter (damage zone 0.5–1 thousand km) range.

kvs wrote:Putin instructed the Minister of Defense to have a hypersonic system ready by 2022.    It looks to me like Kinzhal will get a first booster
stage which will make it much faster to launch than via the Mig-31.    It may even develop a speed faster than MACH 10.   Since the
payload of the Kinzhal is already 500 kg, it is the perfect nuclear fast-response missile for the job.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

kvs wrote:Putin instructed the Minister of Defense to have a hypersonic system ready by 2022.    It looks to me like Kinzhal will get a first booster
stage which will make it much faster to launch than via the Mig-31.    It may even develop a speed faster than MACH 10.   Since the
payload of the Kinzhal is already 500 kg, it is the perfect nuclear fast-response missile for the job.

Kinzhal's is Iskander adapted for aeroblistic lunch. Then we have Iskander -> Kinzhal -> Iskader

True, Rubezh might be too large to be used s SRBM it is more like Pioneer replacement.

Moscow Paris.......- 2,500km,  
Moscow London....- 2,500km



Beefing up  Iskander makes more sense for something 1500-2,000km.  Most likely  also cheaper.
Yars vs. Rubezh

the most interesting here is timing. You need to sink AEGIS before it shoots missiles to intercept Russian ICBMs

kvs wrote:
I think the key is "hypersonic".   Russia will deploy "dead INF violating" missiles designed to take out Aegis and Aegis ashore installations faster
than they can serve their alleged "ABM" function.    Romania, Poland, Japan and any other US bitch that wants to enable some mythical
first strike advantage against Russia is going to feel the blowback.

GarryB wrote:
It sounds like backing down and withdrawing the system the US is bitching about that Putin is calling their bluff.... this will be interesting...

Perhaps a change in tactics from Putin? Maybe tired of US and EU aggression?

miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.

GarryB wrote:I rather suspect a backup use for Kinzhal could be to attack ABM sites... mach 2.5 to within 2,000km of the target and then mach 10 for the final stretch is the fastest way to deal the blow...

GB wrote: The point is that for the US the missiles covered by the INF treaty are short and medium range and are normally inconsequential in the wider scheme of things, while for Russia a lot of their big powerful missiles are being used up pointed at targets smaller lighter cheaper missiles could otherwise deal with effectively... these smaller missiles are theatre missiles for the US but strategic missiles for Russia vs EU or Japan or Canada or the UK.

GB wrote:I think Putin could easily have ordered the withdrawal of this single missile system if he really wanted to keep the INF treaty, but he realises it limits Russia rather more than it limits the west.

GB wrote: The INF treaty didn't ban sea or aircraft launched weapons in those categories so Russia has been preparing defences to defend itself from such things anyway... it has been improving its radar coverage and its SAM performance and completely revolutionising its IADS... the EU will pretty much have to start from scratch... individual countries don't even have their own IADS let alone an inter european one... and even if they were handed an operating integrated system fully ready to go... who would be in charge?  France and Germany and other countries will fight forever on that one....

"I am telling you this now, openly and clearly, so that nobody can blame us later and people know exactly what we are talking about,” Putin stressed.

“Russia will be forced to create and deploy weapon systems, which can be used not only against the territories from which this direct threat would be projected, but also against those territories where decision centers are located, from which an order to use those weapons against us may come.”

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.

not with current range 500km tho.  Romanian AEGIS  is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.

miketheterrible wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.

not with current range 500km tho.  Romanian AEGIS  is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.

I think you are not getting what I am saying and have said already 4 times in this thread - Navy based Kalibr. Which Putin and Shoigu both verified is being done.

kvs wrote:... .

Unacceptable!’ - NATO hits back at Putin’s THREAT to target US and allies with missiles

NATO has hit back at Russian President Vladimir Putin’s “unacceptable” threat to target US missile sites in Europe, as well as “decision-making centres” in the US.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

kvs wrote:... .

like your way of thinking.



I spilled coffee on my KB  but damn it was wort it.  So crimnl with knife pointed t you sy its unacceptable that you carry a  gun or self defense ?      

Unacceptable!’ - NATO hits back at Putin’s THREAT to target US and allies with missiles

NATO has hit back at Russian President Vladimir Putin’s “unacceptable” threat to target US missile sites in Europe, as well as “decision-making centres” in the US.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1090190/World-War-3-NATO-Russia-Vladimir-Putin-US-Donald-Trump-missiles-INF-treaty

kvs wrote: Sad, yapping chihuahua.   No amount of barking at Russia will restore the INF.   If they think that Russia will roll over and conform to the dead INF,
then they can go get f*cked.   And this statement just demonstrates my point about the clowns running NATO being detached from reality.

Shoigu: the main advantage of the newest Russian systems is unattainable efficiency




All the promising weapons systems that the Supreme Commander spoke about in the Address to the Federal Assembly a year ago already exist in the gland, and some in operation, said Defense Minister of the Russian Federation Army General Sergei Shoigu.

“All this is an absolute reality. The most important advantage of the newest Russian systems is inaccessible efficiency. At the same time, our colleagues abroad realize that our developments are hundreds of times cheaper than any systems deployed against us. And not only the US defense,” the Minister of Defense said RF.


https://vpk.name/news/251250_shoigu_glavnoe_dostoinstvo_noveishih_rossiiskih_sistem__nedosyagaemaya_effektivnost.html

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.

not with current range 500km tho.  Romanian AEGIS  is like 900km for Crimea, Alaskan one ~1,400 km from Russian mainland.

I think you are not getting what I am saying and have said already 4 times in this thread - Navy based Kalibr. Which Putin and Shoigu both verified is being done.

Subsonic Kalibr flies form Crime to Romania an hour. Is that you want to say? or you place ships cose to Alaska, Japan or on Rumina coast?

miketheterrible wrote:

Reading comprehension isn't your strong point. But English isn't your first language so it isn't your fault.

miketheterrible wrote:Well, Kalibr in a ground based launchers platform is enough to take out those ABM systems. Enough to take out most systems. Salvo launch and make some with a nuclear warhead and it's game over.