Russia - Egypt military contracts

That was a big lie in Indian medias. Egypt never tested Su-35 against Rafale, because Su-35 was never in Egypt. Neither Russian, neither Egyptian. All ex-Egyptian Su-35 are in Komsomolsk na Amure. Why Egypt cancel Su-35? One reason were US sanctions on Egypt and other reason was, that Egypt got money for Su-35 from Saudi Arabia, which need US support in war against Yemen. Most probably Egypt didn't got money for Su-35 from KSA, but no problem for additional Rafale jets.

lancelot wrote:Indian Su-30MKI fighters have flown in Red Flag in the US against NATO aircraft.
They might have also made tests when they purchased Rafale. Who knows.
It also think it is kind of pointless to compare both fighter radars in that way. Originally the Rafale had a passively scanned radar and only switched to the AESA in later production and upgrades.
If you want to compare current fighters you should compare against Irbis-E radar.

No one used radars during red flag exercises because both sides were worried of getting sensitive data stolen via sniffing.

The rest doesn't really apply. Bars R is quite different than Irbis. Part of the same family, but still different. Frequencies are different, power output is far greater, works in more channels, etc.

Anyway, its a moot point. It was an event that never happened.

I don't think Russia would be mad having the Indians test the rafale ew against russias bars R anyway. It's a good way for them to try and see what results are and improve upon ECCM capabilities.

medo wrote:That was a big lie in Indian medias. Egypt never tested Su-35 against Rafale, because Su-35 was never in Egypt. Neither Russian, neither Egyptian. All ex-Egyptian Su-35 are in Komsomolsk na Amure. Why Egypt cancel Su-35? One reason were US sanctions on Egypt and other reason was, that Egypt got money for Su-35 from Saudi Arabia, which need US support in war against Yemen. Most probably Egypt didn't got money for Su-35 from KSA, but no problem for additional Rafale jets.

Good thinking Medo.
Yes, it could be the Saudis.
Most of Egypt's big arms purchases are financed by the Saudis who in turn reply on Egypt to protect them if SHTF.
Perhaps, as you said, Saudis did not advance the money for the Su-35. Maybe with US interference.

miketheterrible wrote:

lancelot wrote:Indian Su-30MKI fighters have flown in Red Flag in the US against NATO aircraft.
They might have also made tests when they purchased Rafale. Who knows.
It also think it is kind of pointless to compare both fighter radars in that way. Originally the Rafale had a passively scanned radar and only switched to the AESA in later production and upgrades.
If you want to compare current fighters you should compare against Irbis-E radar.

No one used radars during red flag exercises because both sides were worried of getting sensitive data stolen via sniffing.

The rest doesn't really apply. Bars R is quite different than Irbis. Part of the same family, but still different. Frequencies are different, power output is far greater, works in more channels, etc.

Anyway, its a moot point. It was an event that never happened.

I don't think Russia would be mad having the Indians test the rafale ew against russias bars R anyway. It's a good way for them to try and see what results are and improve upon ECCM capabilities.

Bars-R radar is in RuAF Su-30SM. Export Su-30MKI/MKM/MKA have Bars-M radar. Bars-R is upgraded and modified Bars-M radar for Russian needs. India could test with Bars-M, but this radar is from nineties and export one. Irbis-E radar is in Chinese Su-35 and soon in Iranian Su-35.

medo wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

lancelot wrote:Indian Su-30MKI fighters have flown in Red Flag in the US against NATO aircraft.
They might have also made tests when they purchased Rafale. Who knows.
It also think it is kind of pointless to compare both fighter radars in that way. Originally the Rafale had a passively scanned radar and only switched to the AESA in later production and upgrades.
If you want to compare current fighters you should compare against Irbis-E radar.

No one used radars during red flag exercises because both sides were worried of getting sensitive data stolen via sniffing.

The rest doesn't really apply. Bars R is quite different than Irbis. Part of the same family, but still different. Frequencies are different, power output is far greater, works in more channels, etc.

Anyway, its a moot point. It was an event that never happened.

I don't think Russia would be mad having the Indians test the rafale ew against russias bars R anyway. It's a good way for them to try and see what results are and improve upon ECCM capabilities.

Bars-R radar is in RuAF Su-30SM. Export Su-30MKI/MKM/MKA have Bars-M radar. Bars-R is upgraded and modified Bars-M radar for Russian needs. India could test with Bars-M, but this radar is from nineties and export one. Irbis-E radar is in Chinese Su-35 and soon in Iranian Su-35.

Yeah, I forgot the bars m vs bars R. Doesn't Bars R have something like 250-300km range?

So their Su-30s upgrades are getting an Indian AESA, but they wont get an upgrade for some time?

I don't think Russia would be mad having the Indians test the rafale ew against russias bars R anyway. It's a good way for them to try and see what results are and improve upon ECCM capabilities.

This isn't a dick measuring contest, the Rafales EW is reported to be rather good... though the same is claimed for the Gripen, I tend to think the French have better skills in this regard to be honest.

If there is a problem then solutions are needed... this isn't about selling planes, this is about national defence.

Most probably Egypt didn't got money for Su-35 from KSA, but no problem for additional Rafale jets.

Rather more logical and likely...

Maybe the hindus tested the spectra EW suite against a su-30mki? I dont even think that would happen as Russia wouldnt be too pleased with India for doing it, but it is a possibility.

Actually I would think the Russian specialists would be interested in the results and anything else they could find out about the French aircraft.

We talk about downgraded Russian radars, but the Rafales radar would probably be downgraded for export too.

It would be a huge leap forward for India over the radars their aircraft currently use I suspect.

USA can put pressure on as many countries as it wants still doesn't force them to buy USA equipment, so it rather pointless. USA equipment is probably the worst equipment for red tape and downgrading, and it's very expensive, and some systems are not fit for purpose (air defence systems for example).

Egypt will just purchase elsewhere as they have by European equipment, and France will be happy to after getting shafted by USA and UK on the Australian sub deal.

And Egyptian USA equipment is becoming dated, F-16 are dated and am sure Egypt have retained some knowledge and parts, and their Abrams were mostly assembled in Egypt so they should be able to keep them running, only real issue would be the Apache helicopter's. And Egypt would of course lose its $1bn in military aid. So it's most likely going to play a balancing act. But we didn't see USA objection over the MIG deal which was a fairly decent sized order. It's most likely USA pressure to Russia over the Ukraine issue.

I recall that iraq had numerous problems to aquire F-16s, and there's also pakistan's jf-17 investment.

So with Egypt also going down this road, it just looks like getting decent vipers may have become quite the challenge for the non-european clients.

It's makes one wonder what crazy red strings are attached to the viper over the last 10yrs or more.

lancelot wrote:Good luck getting second hand F-16s without explicit US permission for the sale.
Also, you should see the prices on some of these second hand F-16s. They make the F-35 seem cheap.

Prices are up as the US pays silly money for aggressor squadrons.

Prices are absurd. Initial F-16's were only about 11M now they are well above 50M a piece.

A couple of examples, Slovakia bought 14 F-16V aircraft for €1.6 billion. $114m a piece this would have most likely include training, and some spares.

Bulgaria bought 8 secondhand block 70 for $1.2bn yet again training and some parts included no doubt. That's $150ma piece.

Highly expensive deals but USA does that to everyone, and for those who choose not to buy them USA spits it's dummy out and throws it's toys everywhere and shouts sanctions, especially if buying Russian or Chinese aircraft instead. I personally think countries should tell USA to butt out and that countries should be free to buy what's best for their country at a budget they can afford. Quite a few countries have expressed that USA aircraft are expensive as well as maintenance but in the end are forced into buying them due to fear of sanctions, and what will likely happen is that some of those aircraft will sit a hanger and never see the light of day as they can't afford to maintain them but USA doesn't care they forced them to buy crap aircraft or old aircraft at silly high prices so they don't care they come out of it as a win win situation while the buyer gets shafted.

ALAMO wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:Prices are absurd. Initial F-16's were only about 11M now they are well above 50M a piece.

That was 40 years ago, and the inflation is not standing still ...

Goes to show how bad inflation is though, great way to measure. Contrary to how the governments of the west always have very very low single digit inflation (1-2% per year).

ALAMO wrote:By adding 2% a year to 11mln, you will end up with 25mln after 40 years
And we know that this figure is not true, and the low inflation rate is more than 3-4%. And that makes perfect sense and adds up to the 40-50mln ...

While yes that's true, it wasn't a constant for those years.

Add in fact that most tooling now should have reduced overall costs. As Taddie mentioned, prices are even hire than I said.

Not a good deal at all honestly.

Isos wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:A couple of examples, Slovakia bought 14 F-16V aircraft for €1.6 billion. $114m a piece this would have most likely include training, and some spares.

Bulgaria bought 8 secondhand block 70 for $1.2bn yet again training and some parts included no doubt. That's $150ma piece.

Highly expensive deals but USA does that to everyone, and for those who choose not to buy them USA spits it's dummy out and throws it's toys everywhere and shouts sanctions, especially if buying Russian or Chinese aircraft instead. I personally think countries should tell USA to butt out and that countries should be free to buy what's best for their country at a budget they can afford. Quite a few countries have expressed that USA aircraft are expensive as well as maintenance but in the end are forced into buying them due to fear of sanctions, and what will likely happen is that some of those aircraft will sit a hanger and never see the light of day as they can't afford to maintain them but USA doesn't care they forced them to buy crap aircraft or old aircraft at silly high prices so they don't care they come out of it as a win win situation while the buyer gets shafted.

Russian sells aicraft and training/spare parts in different contracts. The western countries generally provide a package with minimal training and spare parts supply. If you want something more you order it.

So what you are quoting isn't representative of the aircraft price. Su-30 are generally sold 35-40 million with only russian equipement but with training/spare parts/maintenace it will be higher which is normal.

Maybe you should read my post again. Where did I say that this is for aircraft ONLY? I CLEARLY stated that this would most likely include or does include training and parts.

But tell me do u think $114mn per aircraft WITH training and parts is a good price?

You would have to be smoking a crack pipe to think it was a good price.

And Bulgaria get shafted in the ass big time $150mn per aircraft with training and parts for SECOND HAND block 70 aircraft that's a very bad deal and both of these deals were done in the last few years.

The fact remains no matter what deal you look at for F-16 or other USA aircraft everyone gets shafted big style.

I highly doubt Russia would turn around and say ok. We will sell aircraft at $40mn and if you want spares and training we are going to add on additional $80-110mn like the USA does.

Countries like Russian aircraft because it's for for purpose, cheaper than USA aircraft and doesn't come with sh*tloads of red tape the only reason we don't see more purchases is because if USA and it's sanctions nonsense.

Isos wrote:I'm not saying it is a good price I'm just saying that's not the price of only the aircraft and it's hard to figure out its price.

Rafale for export with such contract is above 120 million. French air force buy it for 80 million because they have already trained pilots and all the stuff needed to operate them so they only buy the rafale.

Vietnamese Su-30 were at 40 million IIRC but that doesn't include spare parts and training and maintenance.

Indian su-30 are also 40 million for russian part but ~70 million if you count the french/israeli stuff used on them and local assembly.  

When you buy deals like this from USA they almost always include parts and training. So regardless of what you think the price is for the aircraft, u cant escape that defacto price per aircraft in the deal is number of aircraft divided by the cost. Even in other deals where they have already purchased aircraft previously the USA still charges them a hideous price.

You also forget France pays less for rafale because there is a domestic price and export price. Russia pays domestic price and export is always higher. But the USA kick the arse out of it and charge silly prices. Whatever USA pays for aircraft is certainly not what any export customer will pay.

And from the prices I mentioned, it's really up to u to decide how much parts and training cost but for example with Bulgaria buying secondhand aircraft, ask yourself how much of the $150mn is costs for training and parts????? Deduct that from the cost of the$150mn my guess is that parts and training are most likely 10-15% max. So the rest is cost of aircraft which is disgusting. Unless your suggesting that Bulgaria got the aircraft at decades old prices of around $40mn and the remaining $90mn is training and parts
The reason why USA aircraft deals always include training costs is that majority of the time pilots are sent to USA for training. Simulators are not often sold maybe only to countries placing bigger orders.

At the end of the day the two examples I provided where in the last few years both deals where terrible and highly expensive and both countries got ripped off. I would bet that if these countries (hypothetically) bought let's say mig-35 or mig-29m that even with parts and training it's wouldn't be coming out at such high costs on the deals.

Of course the Europeans can be just as bad look at the French deal with Qatar and what they paid.

Rafale aircraft deal includes MBDA missiles, and the training of 36 Qatari pilots and 100 technicians by the French military for $7bn thats $291mn per aircraft(rounding down the figure) Inc training, parts, weapons. I would hope they were were getting sh*tloads of missiles for that price.
Even if we use your price estimate of $120mn per aircraft that would total $2.880bn that would leave $4.12bn for training and technicians and missiles which is a lot. MBDA missiles can range from 100k to 2mn for the more expensive missiles.
You could drill down further and say that they spent $4bn on missiles and what your left with is $136mn, 36 pilots and 100 technicians, that would leave u for arguments sake $1mn per person.

When Russia does deals that include training and parts weapons etc and pilots come to Russia to train, we still don't see such high figures.

The Su-35 has been delivered to Egypt since the beginning of last week
A swarm of them has already arrived in Egypt
I hope Klab Juming and Gary apologize now

Not sure what I have to apologise for... but if what you say can be confirmed I am sure Gomig-21 will be happy to apologise to any one who will listen, because that would be his greatest wish come true... well other than getting to fly it himself of course...