Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

JohninMK wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.

Tsavo Lion wrote:AN-225 history- most of it isn't Ukrainian:
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5e302d76ab87df55e589f2f2/samoletgigant-an225-mriia--vovse-ne-ukrainskii-ego-pridumali-i-sdelali-ne-ukraincy-5f40fa164883df77da5fbcad

kvs wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.

Antonov claims to have assembled the first serial production An-178 without any Russian parts.

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

kvs wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://tsn.ua/ru/ukrayina/bez-rossiyskih-detaley-na-predpriyatii-antonov-sobrali-pervyy-seriynyy-samolet-an-178-1611211.html

Just give us at least a hint in English as to what that's about. Please.

Antonov claims to have assembled the first serial production An-178 without any Russian parts.

Don't they need to update the certificatation of the aircraft if they substitute all the internal systems?
Or is it different for military cargo aircraft?

And di we know who supplies the new parts?

Anyway 6 years for building 1 new aircraft... huge result for Antonov....l

(...) the first branch of the plant was organized, which in 1974 was transformed into the Snezhnyanskiy machine-building plant. SMZ was the industry's first specialized plant for the production of gas turbine engine blades.
The plant produces parts for aircraft engines (compressor discs, compressor and turbine blades), parts and assemblies for mining equipment, consumer goods.
As of 2013, the plant employed over 3,000 people. 

The USA is concerned about the attempts of the PRC to buy the Ukrainian "Motor Sich"

Earlier, in connection with the application for the purchase of a share in the company, the prosecutor's office of Ukraine arrested the company's shares

US sabotage on Motor Sich deal deprives Ukraine of foreign market

16:23 30 August 2020

3,208

Washington's concern over the PRC's attempts to buy Ukrainian Motor Sich PJSC can be regarded as unfair competition, Bogdan Bezpalko , member of the Council for Interethnic Relations under the President of Russia , told FBA Economics  Segodnya .

(...)

The collapse of the Ukrainian industry

In 2017, the general director of the enterprise agreed on the sale of a controlling stake in the company to investors from China, where the construction of a new plant in Chongqing for the use of Motor Sich technology has already begun. However, the Security Service of Ukraine began to block the deal with criminal cases under the articles "Sabotage" and "Preparation for a crime", against the background of which the court arrested 41% of the company's shares.
“I regard the actions of the United States in relation to the Ukrainian enterprise as unfair competition in the sense that Washington completely abandons market principles and makes directive intervention in the processes in the free market,” comments Bohdan Bezpalko.


America in fact imposes a ban on the sale of part of the company's shares to any state. That is, the political scientist clarifies, not only China, but also the Russian Federation, which purchased the plant's products several years ago, cannot equally count on Motor Sich.
“China, like Russia, today has all the available funds and financial opportunities to buy shares of this enterprise. However, no country, including the indicated ones, can do this, since several American politicians are worried that this deal may strengthen the positions of other states and, moreover, make the Russian Federation or the PRC more competitive technologically or otherwise.
Accordingly, such a categorical position of Washington runs counter to the principles of the free market, where the most enterprising, strong and willing to take risks win, ”the expert says.
In April 2018, at the request of the SBU, a court seized the shares of foreign owners of the company. But China's Beijing Xinwei Telecom Technology Group Co Ltd has reaffirmed that its subsidiary Beijing Skyrizon and DCH Group and its affiliates will not back down.
However, the prosecutor's office of Ukraine arrested the shares of Motor Sich PJSC after Chinese investors, together with the DCH group, owned by Ukrainian businessman Alexander Yaroslavsky, whom China attracted as an intermediary and an instrument of influence on President Volodymyr Zelensky, submitted an application for the purchase of a stake in the company to Antimonopoly committee of Ukraine. The arrest of the shares was organized on August 7, 2020, and seven days later, the deputy of the Verkhovna Rada, Alexander Dubinsky, said that the former president and general designer of the Ukrainian Motor Sich enterprise Vyacheslav Boguslaev was trying to destroy the plant.


According to the parliamentarian, Boguslaev, who is now the honorary president of Motor Sich, proceeded to deliberately destroy the enterprise immediately after the sale of his block of shares in the company to Chinese investors. Bogdan Bezpalko believes that this statement was made at the behest of Washington.
“Deputies of the Verkhovna Rada, by reporting on the enterprise, imitate the stormy activity and independence of their decisions and judgments. It is important to take into account that Ukraine today is not an independent state. The country is under external control, but nobody works in the interests of Ukraine. An exception is possible only at those moments when the interests of this country coincide with the interests of foreign policy players, including the United States of America, ”the expert says.

It should be noted that after the collapse of the USSR the management of Motor Sich PJSC actively cooperated with the Russian Federation. But as a result of the coup d'état in Ukraine in 2014, Kiev cut off military-technical cooperation with Moscow.
Today, Motor Sich PJSC is one of the world's largest manufacturers of industrial gas turbine units and engines for Mi-8, Mi-17, Ka-226 helicopters, An-70, An-124, An-140, An-148, Yak- 130, other aviation technology, selling products to more than 100 countries.

The American side, recalls Bogdan Bezpalko (Member of the Council for Interethnic Relations under the President of Russia), controls not only the fate of Motor Sich PJSC. A similar situation developed around the Opel plant, which the Russian Federation planned to acquire. However, Washington's intervention prevented Moscow from closing the deal. The political scientist believes that the reason for this behavior of the United States is ideological motives.
“In general, the actions and statements of the Americans can be viewed as elements of the Cold War in the trade and economic sphere. They are directed against China and Russia.
Ukraine cannot profitably sell an enterprise to the PRC and thereby restore trade, economic, financial and diplomatic ties, as well as strengthen its presence in the international arena and strengthen interaction in various fields with its neighbors. It cannot, because the deal will strengthen the position of the countries against which the United States of America is opposed. Washington is acting in spite of the fact that its position deprives Ukraine of the economy, ”the expert emphasized.
The sabotage of China's deal with the leadership of Motor Sich PJSC, the political scientist added, is only a fraction of what the American side or European countries are doing with the Ukrainian economy.
“The Americans do not need competition in the face of the Ukrainian industry, as well as its directions in principle. Most likely, this industry will degrade further. Heavy engineering, space, aircraft and shipbuilding flourished in the Soviet Union in Ukraine. Now everything is practically destroyed.
The only thing that will save the Ukrainian economy is the reunification with Russia and the unification of industrial complexes, as well as the modernization of these industries, ”the expert stated.

Author: Alexandra Melnik

China intends to recover 3.5 billion dollars from Ukraine because of Motor Sich


China can recover 3.5 billion dollars from Ukraine. It is for this amount that the Chinese investors from Skyrizon, who own 56% of the shares of the Ukrainian "Motor Sich", intend to submit a claim to international arbitration.

Chinese company Skyrizon sent a message to the government of Ukraine about its intention to start international arbitration against the state of Ukraine. The relevant claim has already been submitted to the Ministry of justice of the country. Representatives of the company accuse Ukraine of violating its international obligations stipulated in the Agreement between the Government of Ukraine and the government of the people's Republic of China on the promotion and mutual protection of investments.

As reported, the Chinese company in 2016 acquired 56% of the shares of the Ukrainian "Motor Sich", but so far, they have not received the opportunity to manage their assets. The Ukrainian court on the initiative of the SBU has seized the shares, and the Antimonopoly Committee of Ukraine under formal pretexts delays the issuance of permits for concentration.

For 3 years, the rights of all shareholders of the enterprise have been systematically violated - general meetings are not convened, dividends are not paid, shareholders are deprived of the opportunity to influence the actions of management

- stated in the message.

Against this background, it is claimed that the company itself is losing sales markets and becoming uncompetitive. Damage from the current situation in China is estimated at more than 3.5 billion dollars. The Chinese company calls on Ukraine to immediately start negotiations, ending the illegal activities of the Ukrainian authorities in relation to Motor Sich and its shareholders.

If the state of Ukraine is unable to respond promptly and start negotiations or otherwise fulfill its international obligations, Chinese investors will use their right to start arbitration.

- emphasize in the Chinese company.

https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.en/https/topwar.ru/174803-kitaj-nameren-vzyskat-s-ukrainy-35-mlrd-dollarov-iz-za-motor-sich.html

kvs wrote:Unlike with Yukos, the transfer pricing racket run by gangster oligarch Khodorkovsky, we'll have these "international" arbitrators bend over backward to give Pukeraine excuses.
There will be no $50 billion awards to China based on hypothetical valuations of some racket.  

Any "international" outfit (arbitration court, UN committee, etc.) that is staffed by NATzO members in key positions is nothing but a NATzO condom.  

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://news.24tv.ua/ru/minoborony-budet-pokupat-samolety-an-178-an-74-detali_n1446169

https://naukatehnika.com/an-178-spaset-li-krasivyj-samolet-ukrainskij-aviaprom.html

https://inshe.tv/society/2020-09-30/564480/  I hope that the AN-188 will come out!

Does Turkey have the money to carry the An-188 programme to a point where they could replace their A-400Ms... it would probably be much cheaper to buy Il-476 or perhaps even wait for the Il-106....- most of the work is done on it; Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation; once she gets 2-3 AN-188s, her A-400Ms can then be sold, if not before that. she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $. Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.

Antonov is more or less dead and majority of sub components and other parts came from Russia. So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?

Tsavo Lion wrote:

Does Turkey have the money to carry the An-188 programme to a point where they could replace their A-400Ms... it would probably be much cheaper to buy Il-476 or perhaps even wait for the Il-106....- most of the work is done on it; Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation; once she gets 2-3 AN-188s, her A-400Ms can then be sold, if not before that. she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $. Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.

Antonov is more or less dead and majority of sub components and other parts came from Russia. So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?

They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

Turkey barely has a functional aerospace industry hence why they are looking at Ukraine.

So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?

Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation;

once she gets 2-3 AN-188s,

she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $.

Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.

They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

That is just something they proposed to UAE 2 years ago.
They could not use the D17 propfan engine because some fundamental parts were made in Russia. They wanted to adapt it with turbofan engines, but even if they proposed a version with 4 Ukrainian/Soviet D436, that engine is too small for the intended payload of the An70, so they would have to change also something else. Finally they said they will use cfm56 engines (the half french/ half american a320 engines, that also are used on the new embraer military cargo aircraft)

US could place a ban for the export on the components for sales to certain countries, as an example, and all the efforts would have been for nothing.

they were supposed to be making the wing parts on 3,500 F-35s and now they are not... so they wont be getting most of that money back either.

Turkey only has 10 A-400Ms... that is simply not a viable number to develop and build a new aircraft type for... they will be terribly expensive... just setting up the factory to build them would need 100 orders to pay for that and the workforce and to buy the materials to make the aircraft from... the Ukraine probably could not afford to buy any at all with that sort of production total.

GarryB wrote:

Turkey barely has a functional aerospace industry hence why they are looking at Ukraine.

Desperation... and the Ukraine are probably saying they can do it easy... ie they are lying.

So where will they get like 65% of the plane from?

They will hope China will pay for it and Turkey will supply all the missing parts normally provided by Russia...

Emphasis on the word hope.

Turkey may get her $ back for her cancelled F-35 participation;

That could take decades even assuming they get any at all back, and the costs involved probably nullify any money they do get back... they were supposed to be making the wing parts on 3,500 F-35s and now they are not... so they wont be getting most of that money back either.

once she gets 2-3 AN-188s,

You say it like it is an easy thing... replacing half the parts with parts from a different country is not that easy and would essentially need the entire testing programme to be restarted from scratch. They will take another decade to full test and develop this aircraft and I really don't think Motor Sich or Antonov are going to be around in a decades time. If the Turks can make parts to get the An-188 flying then they should be able to make the parts to keep the A-400Ms flying for much less money and time... they already have all the parts...

she can also cancel some other purchases &/ sell some weapons to get the extra $.

How many transport planes do you think Turkey needs to make?

Turkey only has 10 A-400Ms... that is simply not a viable number to develop and build a new aircraft type for... they will be terribly expensive... just setting up the factory to build them would need 100 orders to pay for that and the workforce and to buy the materials to make the aircraft from... the Ukraine probably could not afford to buy any at all with that sort of production total.

This is just ridiculously delusional...

Big deposits of gas just been discovered in the Black Sea that can also generate more income.

Income that Turkey could use to fix a lot of things and build up itself in terms of infrastructure.... certainly not to piss away on a dead aircraft design with poor prospects...

They claim that this new plane is Without Russian parts - Antonov showed the new An-77

You mean like the An-178 was all Ukrainian and ready for sale... ask Peru about that...

That is just something they proposed to UAE 2 years ago.
They could not use the D17 propfan engine because some fundamental parts were made in Russia. They wanted to adapt it with turbofan engines, but even if they proposed a version with 4 Ukrainian/Soviet D436, that engine is too small for the intended payload of the An70, so they would have to change also something else. Finally they said they will use cfm56 engines (the half french/ half american a320 engines, that also are used on the new embraer military cargo aircraft)

Plus the obvious problem that an An-70 with A-320 engines is essentially a really much more expensive Il-76... which is already in production in the form of the Il-476... but cheaper.

US could place a ban for the export on the components for sales to certain countries, as an example, and all the efforts would have been for nothing.

Which would not be a problem for France who sells a lot of aircraft to loyal customers that don't normally buy US stuff anyway, but the countries the Ukraine will be selling to wont be able to afford this plane and those that can will likely be under US sanctions anyway...