The Situation in the Ukraine. #1

And here is the famous tape

Viktor wrote:Game is over ...

- US controls EU
- EU acts like US orders are its own ideas
- EU does lousy job for the US and US mad for it
- Klitcko a puppy that will wanish from the scene once he "does his job" because he is not up to the job (meaning stupid)
- Maiden uprising - all staged
- Media - lying propaganda bitches as allways

Ukraine crisis: Leaked phone call embarrasses US

  someone   cough cough intercepted US communications and published the video online

That's what You get when there is no balance in World powers. So called good guys US are now are acting like text book Soviets from propaganda movies.
All capitalist unite!
I really hope EU will get it's balls cut and turn in to only economical creature.

Regular wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:This is the ancient concept of respect.
If Russians instead of letting Lithuania break free had simply annihilate the f@@ing place like EVERYBODY else would have done nobody would had dare to undermine them again.
Instead they followed this stupid leftist notion of pacifism and now all this joke countries turn back to huge Russia harassing!!
Have never seen a more ludicrous situation in my life. Indeed, if you use violence when time is due, you avoid much more bloodshed at the end of the day.
Of course never is too late...

Annihilate for what exactly? :DFor crappy regional politics? Russia is not most competent country in this regards as well. And it's not that they let Lithuania easily breakout, it wasn't euromaidan crap, we expected worse not better life and it was awful in first years under blockade. Look at Chechnya when they decided to breakout, does their method look better?
In the end of the day Russia is no 1 importer of our goods, I only welcome more collaboration. We sell better quality products than what we make for our own market and Russians are familiar with them from Soviet times.

As simple as it gets: When you signed to NATO, if I was in charge of Russia (purely hypothetical of course cause I am Greek), I would had nuke you to extinction, fullstop.

Hannibal Barca wrote:

Regular wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:This is the ancient concept of respect.
If Russians instead of letting Lithuania break free had simply annihilate the f@@ing place like EVERYBODY else would have done nobody would had dare to undermine them again.
Instead they followed this stupid leftist notion of pacifism and now all this joke countries turn back to huge Russia harassing!!
Have never seen a more ludicrous situation in my life. Indeed, if you use violence when time is due, you avoid much more bloodshed at the end of the day.
Of course never is too late...

Annihilate for what exactly? :DFor crappy regional politics? Russia is not most competent country in this regards as well. And it's not that they let Lithuania easily breakout, it wasn't euromaidan crap, we expected worse not better life and it was awful in first years under blockade. Look at Chechnya when they decided to breakout, does their method look better?
In the end of the day Russia is no 1 importer of our goods, I only welcome more collaboration. We sell better quality products than what we make for our own market and Russians are familiar with them from Soviet times.

As simple as it gets: When you signed to NATO, if I was in charge of Russia (purely hypothetical of course cause I am Greek), I would had nuke you to extinction, fullstop.

You have clear understanding how politics work, don't You? You have same thinking power of a Greek statue. Last time I remember, Your beautiful but now failing country is in NATO and had conflicts with it's member. So guess You are less entitled than us to be here. NATO is rather good for us as we are buffer zone, there is nothing important strategically, there are no NATO troops stationed apart few jets and so on. Military wise we get very small support and we are open to Russian inspectors. Last month Russian inspectors where in my unit. Russia doesn't even have to move in our country to rain us with their tactical weapons. But thanks God 99 percent of them are more reasonable than You.

Viktor wrote:And here is the famous tape

This is amazing Vic. So they had them taped since December and they were making fun of them.
The way the BRICS outplay the NATO recently is staggering. They are indeed a bunch of amateurs.
You can't really ask this little b@tch Nuland, even worse via phone what you gonna do. Can you?

That's what You get when there is no balance in World powers. So called good guys US are now are acting like text book Soviets from propaganda movies.
All capitalist unite!
I really hope EU will get it's balls cut and turn in to only economical creature.

In case you haven't notice EU is done. Is just a matter of a few years at best to vanish into thin air and US is in no better shape either. And then I wonder what you, baltic geniuses, gonna think in order to explain what you are doing in an alliance planning the massacre of your former compatriots. This is gonna be classic I guess!

You have clear understanding how politics work, don't You? You have same thinking power of a Greek statue. Last time I remember, Your beautiful but now failing country is in NATO and had conflicts with it's member. So guess You are less entitled than us to be here. NATO is rather good for us as we are buffer zone, there is nothing important strategically, there are no NATO troops stationed apart few jets and so on. Military wise we get very small support and we are open to Russian inspectors. Last month Russian inspectors where in my unit. Russia doesn't even have to move in our country to rain us with their tactical weapons. But thanks God 99 percent of them are more reasonable than You.

One last remark. No point to make this personal, and I am certainly not defending Greece in anything. Quite the opposite: The last 930 years we are a shame of a nation.
Having said this, we never betray our allies. NEVER, even when we make clearly bad choices.

It's ironical to hear it from Greek. EU was done after south started to rot. It's not because You where lazy, but say thanks to few important thieves that ruined You. EU won't collapse as of yet and probably will be dragging it's gangrened south out of recession till end of days.
And what massacre are You talking about? Russia has ability to defend their integrity and population.

Hannibal Barca wrote:

You have clear understanding how politics work, don't You? You have same thinking power of a Greek statue. Last time I remember, Your beautiful but now failing country is in NATO and had conflicts with it's member. So guess You are less entitled than us to be here. NATO is rather good for us as we are buffer zone, there is nothing important strategically, there are no NATO troops stationed apart few jets and so on. Military wise we get very small support and we are open to Russian inspectors. Last month Russian inspectors where in my unit. Russia doesn't even have to move in our country to rain us with their tactical weapons. But thanks God 99 percent of them are more reasonable than You.

One last remark. No point to make this personal, and I am certainly not defending Greece in anything. Quite the opposite: The last 930 years we are a shame of a nation.
Having said this, we never betray our allies. NEVER, even when we make clearly bad choices.

Dude Your allies are Turkey. It's not like You have Your say in foreign politics, it's up to politicians and You can barely control Your domestic politics, and I blame You Greeks who invented democracy, I wish that kebab will remove You. All jokes aside, don't call for other people annihilation, You might grow toothbrush moustache otherwise.

Hannibal Barca wrote: As simple as it gets: When you signed to NATO, if I was in charge of Russia (purely hypothetical of course cause I am Greek), I would had nuke you to extinction, fullstop.

I thought you were a wise and educated guy but I was clearly wrong. I hope you are on booze.

You don't know. OK let me explain to you, after all this is what geostrategic forums are all about. A considerable part of why we don't leave EU is because we don't want to betray our partners, despite the fact that Euro for us was a nightmare all along. We just don't want to do a Lithuania, to rephrase it.

Yes EU might keep dragging for more cause West have no self esteem. Yet in a union where Baltics and former communists are in calling south gangrened is a joke. I tell you this. Having been in the union for 30 years like we are you would had a deficit hole like Mars. I am as anti-communist as anyone can be but tell you this, communism at least makes you self efficient.

Russia can defend itself, this doesn't change the fact that you took an oath to do the best you can to destruct her welfare. And in Ukraine you renew your promise as a convenient puppet.

zino wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote: As simple as it gets: When you signed to NATO, if I was in charge of Russia (purely hypothetical of course cause I am Greek), I would had nuke you to extinction, fullstop.

I thought you were a wise and educated guy but I was clearly wrong. I hope you are on booze.

Obviously an exaggeration to emphasize the point...
Conventional explosives would be just about fine   

Regular wrote:

Dude Your allies are Turkey. It's not like You have Your say in foreign politics, it's up to politicians and You can barely control Your domestic politics, and I blame You Greeks who invented democracy, I wish that kebab will remove You. All jokes aside, don't call for other people annihilation, You might grow toothbrush moustache otherwise.

Yeah you got a point here   
I said from scratch, this is not a fistfight. It is not about Greece vs anyone.
Last time I checked I wasn't on charge of Greece so I am not accountable for any wrongdoings!
I don't ask you to apologize for Lithuania either. You, as a Lithuanian got offended by my remarks and try to excuse.

Then again, I could keep silent about Lithuania (Latvia and Poland as well) and not raise tensions here but then again how you can cover the situation
without taking this major players into perspective? You simply can't. This all trace back to the resolution of Warsaw pact.

I served my country so to hear a guy from thousand kilometres preaching our people annihilation is rather aggravating. Since Russian Lithuanian relationship are bumpy but overall good as both of as are cooperating on borders.
Look how we hate Russian militarymen, we even give them medals

[quote="Regular"]I served my country so to hear a guy from thousand kilometres preaching our people annihilation is rather aggravating. Since Russian Lithuanian relationship are bumpy but overall ok, as both of as are cooperating on borders. It's not Karabach, no intrusions or bombs falling:D
Look how we hate Russian military men, we even give them medals

Regular wrote:I served my country so to hear a guy from thousand kilometres preaching our people annihilation is rather aggravating. Since Russian Lithuanian relationship are bumpy but overall good as both of as are cooperating on borders.
Look how we hate Russian militarymen, we even give them medals

I am not the kind of guy who hides his words. I said and I repeat again. For me, from the standpoint of Russia, they should have used force in quite a few occasions since 1989
particularly against Lithuania who seem to be in a strange "chicken game" with them!
The way EU and US behaved against our brothers Serbs, in Syria (one of the very last Russia allies), and now in Ukraine is a direct act of war.
In particular Lithuania's and Poland's behavior was way out of proportion and an immediate violent response might be considered.
There is a provocation that is the last one, ask Georgia for example.

Now, if you want me to be 100% serious, Russia (or China or India if you like etc) have no reason to complicate matters now that the long term prognosis favor them heavily,
but I hope you realize that some tiny countries like Lithuania play a game much bigger that their measures, for the best interests of someone else. By doing this they take an extreme risk for no reason and with the excessive possibility to pay dearly in due time. You see, they did the same mistake in WW2 as well, and they didn't learn anything, when obviously staying just neutral would had been the best strategy in any outcome.

OK, enough said from me.

As you may already know, there's been some leaks of telephone conversations and stuff from Western officials. Here's V. Nulland's comment on that:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/nuland-not-commenting-on-leaked-diplomatic-conversations-336445.html


An interesting quote:

"Speaking about the impact of this conversation on U.S. relations with Russia, Nuland said that the two countries have a very deep and complex relationship and that they had been working on various issues.

In particular, she said, the United States and Russia are working a lot on issues related to Iran, Syria, and arms control."


Maybe US also has something in their sleeve?  




To Hannicbal Barca:
" For me, from the standpoint of Russia, they should have used force in quite a few occasions since 1989
particularly against Lithuania who seem to be in a strange "chicken game" with them!"

Lithuania is not Russia's enemy. I think you are mistaking a few a**hat politicians with entire country. Don't do that.

- I don't think that they have anything on their sleeves. The last century USA has the worst foreign policy of any country on the planet. The worst, literally. It is only that at least until very recently they were able to cover their giant blunders by even more gigantic mountains of dollars. They were paying their way out of their mistakes if you like. This is my understanding

- I don't make the mistake to separate leaders from their people. Someone vote for them not? We are talking about some governments here in a span of a couple of decades. They elected and re-elected, I am sorry to break it again   

Hannibal Barca wrote:- Someone vote for them not? We are talking about some governments here in a span of a couple of decades. They elected and re-elected, I am sorry to break it again   

US embassy?  

Come on, man, I think, that your own prime minister (Papandreu, right?) resigned due to EU pressure to remain in the union. Are people of Greece supposed to be blamed now for failing bailout measures as a result? I think not.

In the case of my country, our independence of foreign policy is almost non-existant. Probably you don't know, but in 2004 our elected president was overthrown, because (I strongly suspect) he wasn't deemed anti-Russian enough.

Hannibal Barca wrote:In case you haven't notice EU is done. Is just a matter of a few years at best to vanish into thin air and US is in no better shape either. And then I wonder what you, baltic geniuses, gonna think in order to explain what you are doing in an alliance planning the massacre of your former compatriots. This is gonna be classic I guess!

Hannibal you're pushing a blue on blue here.

Russia doesn't have that many friends - why do you want to alienate the few it has?

Nations are permanent(ish), governments aren't.
The friends we have today might not be the friends we have tomorrow. But then it goes the other way round as well.
Back in the Cold War - Turkey and China weren't friends with Russia, yet now relations are strong with both.
In 20 years time, Lithuania might be the only friend West of us we have, and Chechens might be the biggest patriots of Russia. Who's to say?   

The Baltic States have always been neighbours of Russia and they aren't going anywhere quite frankly. And vice-versa - Russia isn't going anywhere either.
Nukes?
Aside from the moral and all the other issues; it would basically be like nuking our own territory; that radiation cloud is going to go to Kaliningrad, St. Petersburg, Belarus, Baltic Sea, etc...

There are differences in opinion amongst Baltic peoples and Russians - but it's never on the level of violence, not any more, and it hasn't been for decades. It wasn't in the 90s either. The Baltic states protested for independence peacefully. Why should the USSR have employed force against people who protest peacefully? That doesn't sound like the sort of government I want ruling my own people. Sounds like a tyranny in fact.
It's not like there's a threat to Russians from this tiny country anyway. We'll keep our gloves on, and keep our disagreements civilized, thank you very much.

Now, the priority shouldn't be getting rid of Lithuanians, but discrediting their ridiculously anti-Russian puppet government amongst their own people, so that they can get some sane people in power that aren't US, Canadian, whatever citizens and who won't offer themselves as a sacrificial lamb to the bureaucrats in Brussels, by doing all of its anti-Russian dirtywork for it and then taking all the fall for it when the inevitable Russian retaliation comes.

we in the EU already have long-running frustrations with the U.S. we are trying to get rid of their nuclear weaponry in our country's, the NSA scandals and now this phonecall leak that confirms our suspicions of the U.S lack of respect to the E.U. of course E.U politicians wont break up the nato pact anytime soon, but believe me when some politicians here are foaming at the mouth.

you got to understand its for europeans a big change of mentality and the information given is huge. the U.S have simply been using the E.U for their own gains and it now gets into the daylight more and more. and the E.U, while certainly far from perfect is trying to create its own course outside of U.S meddling and interferrence.

...hence, the "fuck E.U" comment. because the E.U is mightly fucking sick of the U.S dragging us in one war after another. you dont think the E.U not participating in Syria strike is a coincidence?. but things dont change overnight of course. and im well aware Europe has a questionable role in the deal with Ukraine. western media does not show it of course but i saw the molotov's impacting riot police and seeping trough their armor while they are just doing their jobs.

anyway, just let things run their course. as far i can judge really the U.S will find itself with very little friends very soon if they keep this up.

Airbornewolf wrote:we in the EU already have long-running frustrations with the U.S. we are trying to get rid of their nuclear weaponry in our country's, the NSA scandals and now this phonecall leak that confirms our suspicions of the U.S lack of respect to the E.U. of course E.U politicians wont break up the nato pact anytime soon, but believe me when some politicians here are foaming at the mouth.

you got to understand its for europeans a big change of mentality and the information given is huge. the U.S have simply been using the E.U for their own gains and it now gets into the daylight more and more. and the E.U, while certainly far from perfect is trying to create its own course outside of U.S meddling and interferrence.

...hence, the "fuck E.U" comment. because the E.U is mightly fucking sick of the U.S dragging us in one war after another. you dont think the E.U not participating in Syria strike is a coincidence?. but things dont change overnight of course. and im well aware Europe has a questionable role in the deal with Ukraine. western media does not show it of course but i saw the molotov's impacting riot police and seeping trough their armor while they are just doing their jobs.  

anyway, just let things run their course. as far i can judge really the U.S will find itself with very little friends very soon if they keep this up.

I really don't get it - what exactly is it that you guys are surprised about?

That the US wears the trousers in the relationship?
That big, powerful countries have surveillance networks, espionage activities and spy on their allies?
That revolutions/coups/invasions are organised around the world on the behalf of promoting political ideology or superpower interests?
That the US has a whole bunch of client states that basically do what it says?

Come on, it's the exact same thing that was taking place since 1945, during the Cold War.
Both superpowers were doing it. The difference is that the USSR collapsed, its client states broke free, it's ideology vanished and all of its and other socialist state's surveillance programs on their own citizens, carried out by the KGB, Stasi, etc... were exposed.

But the US on the other hand never stopped and is still doing all those same sorts of things as it was during the Cold War.

I think FP, that people wouldn't hate the US foreign policy as much as they do, if it wasn't so damn hypocritical.
If the US came out and said: Listen, we have our interest, and (as a powerful nation) we're pushing our own agenda, more people would accept that fact.
Problem with selectively "spreading democracy" and "human rights" is that it can back-clash terribly. Especially since people are more informed in today's world.
The difference between that and the former USSR is that the Communist (as bad an ideology as it was) were indeed pushing communism, while the Americans are just pretending. Or rather using "democracy and human rights" as a pretext on actually spreading dominance which resembles the colonial era dominance, and as I've said before, that's a bit hard in a world where anyone can get on the internet and get instant access to various information.

The difference between that and the former USSR is that the Communist (as bad an ideology as it was) were indeed pushing communism, while the Americans are just pretending. Or rather using "democracy and human rights" as a pretext on actually spreading dominance which resembles the colonial era dominance, and as I've said before, that's a bit hard in a world where anyone can get on the internet and get instant access to various information. wrote:

X2

flamming_python wrote:

Hannibal Barca wrote:In case you haven't notice EU is done. Is just a matter of a few years at best to vanish into thin air and US is in no better shape either. And then I wonder what you, baltic geniuses, gonna think in order to explain what you are doing in an alliance planning the massacre of your former compatriots. This is gonna be classic I guess!

Hannibal you're pushing a blue on blue here.

Russia doesn't have that many friends - why do you want to alienate the few it has?

Nations are permanent(ish), governments aren't.
The friends we have today might not be the friends we have tomorrow. But then it goes the other way round as well.
Back in the Cold War - Turkey and China weren't friends with Russia, yet now relations are strong with both.
In 20 years time, Lithuania might be the only friend West of us we have, and Chechens might be the biggest patriots of Russia. Who's to say?   

The Baltic States have always been neighbours of Russia and they aren't going anywhere quite frankly. And vice-versa - Russia isn't going anywhere either.
Nukes?
Aside from the moral and all the other issues; it would basically be like nuking our own territory; that radiation cloud is going to go to Kaliningrad, St. Petersburg, Belarus, Baltic Sea, etc...

There are differences in opinion amongst Baltic peoples and Russians - but it's never on the level of violence, not any more, and it hasn't been for decades. It wasn't in the 90s either. The Baltic states protested for independence peacefully. Why should the USSR have employed force against people who protest peacefully? That doesn't sound like the sort of government I want ruling my own people. Sounds like a tyranny in fact.
It's not like there's a threat to Russians from this tiny country anyway. We'll keep our gloves on, and keep our disagreements civilized, thank you very much.

Now, the priority shouldn't be getting rid of Lithuanians, but discrediting their ridiculously anti-Russian puppet government amongst their own people, so that they can get some sane people in power that aren't US, Canadian, whatever citizens and who won't offer themselves as a sacrificial lamb to the bureaucrats in Brussels, by doing all of its anti-Russian dirtywork for it and then taking all the fall for it when the inevitable Russian retaliation comes.

-I already wrote that I was exaggerating about nukes, obviously. A Georgian type campaign would be ideal to place things in the right order.

-Would certainly not let USSR to resolute because this Nazi, Catholic Lithuania grab the chance in the worst time in my history. That is what happened in 1990. In the same logic why you don't let Chechen to break free? Or Kuril islands? Obviously ruling an empire is not for mother Teressa.

-Pride is center idea in West and not only. In Russia is not, obviously. I don't want to condemn this policy necessarily, I acknowledge that has it's own merits but everything has a limit. In my book this limit is crossed multiple times. eg I would never ever let someone like Lithuania try to create a new Yugoslavia in Ukraine. Period. No matter if I control the situation.

flamming_python wrote:

Airbornewolf wrote:we in the EU already have long-running frustrations with the U.S. we are trying to get rid of their nuclear weaponry in our country's, the NSA scandals and now this phonecall leak that confirms our suspicions of the U.S lack of respect to the E.U. of course E.U politicians wont break up the nato pact anytime soon, but believe me when some politicians here are foaming at the mouth.

you got to understand its for europeans a big change of mentality and the information given is huge. the U.S have simply been using the E.U for their own gains and it now gets into the daylight more and more. and the E.U, while certainly far from perfect is trying to create its own course outside of U.S meddling and interferrence.

...hence, the "fuck E.U" comment. because the E.U is mightly fucking sick of the U.S dragging us in one war after another. you dont think the E.U not participating in Syria strike is a coincidence?. but things dont change overnight of course. and im well aware Europe has a questionable role in the deal with Ukraine. western media does not show it of course but i saw the molotov's impacting riot police and seeping trough their armor while they are just doing their jobs.  

anyway, just let things run their course. as far i can judge really the U.S will find itself with very little friends very soon if they keep this up.

I really don't get it - what exactly is it that you guys are surprised about?

That the US wears the trousers in the relationship?
That big, powerful countries have surveillance networks, espionage activities and spy on their allies?
That revolutions/coups/invasions are organised around the world on the behalf of promoting political ideology or superpower interests?
That the US has a whole bunch of client states that basically do what it says?

Come on, it's the exact same thing that was taking place since 1945, during the Cold War.
Both superpowers were doing it. The difference is that the USSR collapsed, its client states broke free, it's ideology vanished and all of its and other socialist state's surveillance programs on their own citizens, carried out by the KGB, Stasi, etc... were exposed.

But the US on the other hand never stopped and is still doing all those same sorts of things as it was during the Cold War.

What you don't get is this. There is not that evil US rules people and this must end.
Is that people beg for a Master. They don't want to be free, they just want to be enslaved to the strongest Master. This is human nature, and is not gonna change anytime soon.
Else democracy would had end any wrongdoings. Obviously is not, because people LOVE to be abused. By this they feel secure and important.
Like the sheep in the herd.