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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:52 am

    Apparently the German people are at odds with Merkel on Crimea, looks like they're on Russia's side...check out this online survey by Der Tagesspiegel:

    http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/russland-und-die-krim-vorbereitung-fuer-den-anschluss/9581526.html

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 Bi9bmPbCYAEnNCn


    ...Let's take this into context, the German people siding with Russia makes sense because Germany, like Russia is a heavy industry export economy and serious sanctions against Russia would destroy the German economy (because they depend on each other) and ultimately destroy the European Union, and probably destroy European NATO ultimately causing it to dissolve.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:10 am

    Russia 1, Regime Changers 0

    By Pepe Escobar

    Let's cut to the chase - short and sweet.

    1. The Obama administration's "strategic" gambit to subcontract the State Department's "Khaganate of Nulands" to extricate Ukraine from the Russian sphere of influence - and ultimately annex it to NATO - by instrumentalizing a coalition of willing neo-nazis and fascists with a central bank veneer (prime minister "Yats"), is in utter shambles.

    2. Moscow's counterpunch was to prevent in Crimea - as intercepted by Russian intelligence - a planned replay of the putsch in Kiev. The referendum in Crimea - 85% of turnout, roughly 93% voting for re-joining Russia, according to exit polls - is a done deal, as much as the oh-so-democratic European Union (EU) keeps threatening to punish people in Crimea for exercising their basic democratic rights. (By the way, when the US got Kosovo to secede from Serbia, Serbians were offered no referendum).

    3. The main rationale for the whole US "strategic" advance - to have their proxies, the regime changers in Kiev, cancel the agreement for the Russian naval base in Sevastopol - is up in smoke. Moscow remains present in the Black Sea and with full access to the Eastern Mediterranean.

    And the rest is blah blah blah.

    All aboard the Finland station
    The US State Department has practically agreed to a federal and in fact Finlandized Ukraine [1] which, by the way, is the solution being proposed by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov right from the start, as this Russian white paper attests. US Secretary of State John Kerry - as when Moscow saved the "red line" Obama administration from bombing Syria - will go on overdrive to steal all the credit from the Russians. US corporate media will duly buy it, but not independents such as Moon of Alabama. [2]

    This - sensible - road map implies, among other crucial points; strong autonomous regions; Russian reinstated as an official language, alongside Ukrainian; and most of all political/military neutrality, that is, Finlandization. To get there will be the mission of a support group - once again, proposed by Moscow from the start - with the US, EU and Russia as members.

    All that finally sanctified by a UN Security Council resolution (true, it could go spectacularly wrong, and most of all sabotaged by the "West".) And all that, as well, without Moscow having to officially recognize the regime changers in Kiev. In a nutshell; Moscow called Washington's bluff - and won.

    So after all that barrage of ominous threats including everyone from Obama, Kerry and assorted neo-con bomb-firsters down to minions such as Cameron, Hague and Fabius, the meat of the matter is that the Obama administration concluded it would not risk a nuclear war with Russia for the Khaganate of Nulands - especially after Moscow made it known, discreetly, it would create the conditions for eastern and southern Ukraine to also secede.

    Sweden, for instance, proposed an arms embargo on sales to Moscow. Paris took a quick glance at its industrial-military complex interests and immediately said no. Only the brain dead entertain the notion Paris and Berlin are willing to jeopardize their trade relations with Russia. As well as the notion that Beijing would ever join sanctions against fellow Group of 20, BRICS and Shanghai Cooperation Organization member Russia just because what they perceive as an increasingly irrational - and dangerous - Washington said so.

    And yet, Western hysteria of course will persist unabated. In the US, where it matters, the meme of the subsequent days will be, inevitably, who lost Syria and who lost Ukraine.

    Here's the record. Dubya launched two wars. He (miserably) lost both.

    Obama attempted to launch two wars (Syria and Ukraine). He - lucky for him - lost both even at the "attempt" stage. Assorted neo-cons and the whole exceptionalist brigade are predictably livid. Expect the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal to go ballistic. And expect US ambassador to the UN Samantha "R2P" Power to wish she were Sinead O'Connor singing Nothing Compares to You.

    It's a gas, gas, gas, not!
    The Kiev regime-changers are already announcing their intentions, as in Right Sector capo and confirmed neo-nazi Dmytro Yarosh saying, "… Russia makes money sending its oil through our pipelines to the West. We will destroy these pipelines and deprive our enemy of its source of income."

    That's a brilliant strategy straight from the Khaganate of Nulands playbook. So homes and the whole industrial base in Ukraine should be out of (cheap, discounted) gas, not to mention great swathes of Germany, so the neo-nazis can claim "victory". With friends like these …

    Gazprom's executives are not exactly raising an eyebrow. Russia is already shipping roughly half of its gas to Europe bypassing Ukraine, and after South Stream is completed in 2015, that percentage will increase (EU "sanctions" against South Stream are just empty rhetoric.)

    The regime changers will be trying to wreak havoc in other fronts as well. The new Ukrainian parliament has voted to assemble a 60,000-strong National Guard crammed with "activists". Guess who will be in charge; the new security chief, Andriy Parubiy, one of the founders of the neo-nazi Social-National Party. And his deputy happens to be none other than Yarosh, the leader of the paramilitary Right Sector. Feel free to add your own custom-made Hitlerian metaphors - even as the risk persists of Ukraine breaking apart. Which is not necessarily a bad deal. Let the "democratic" EU pay Ukraine's gas bills.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-170314.html

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #2

    Post  xeno Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:17 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Apparently the German people are at odds with Merkel on Crimea, looks like they're on Russia's side...check out this online survey by Der Tagesspiegel:

    http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/russland-und-die-krim-vorbereitung-fuer-den-anschluss/9581526.html

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 Bi9bmPbCYAEnNCn


    ...Let's take this into context, the German people siding with Russia makes sense because Germany, like Russia is a heavy industry export economy and serious sanctions against Russia would destroy the German economy (because they depend on each other) and ultimately destroy the European Union, and probably destroy European NATO ultimately causing it to dissolve.

    It doesn't necessarily reflect Germans' opinion, because anyone can vote, even I voted just now after see your link(of course the third option).
    If some one had post this link on any pro-Russia web, people can follow the link to vote the 3rd option, unless it can be garanteed that this link has never been post on any pro-Russia web(s) before...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:25 am

    xeno wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Apparently the German people are at odds with Merkel on Crimea, looks like they're on Russia's side...check out this online survey by Der Tagesspiegel:

    http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/russland-und-die-krim-vorbereitung-fuer-den-anschluss/9581526.html

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 Bi9bmPbCYAEnNCn


    ...Let's take this into context, the German people siding with Russia makes sense because Germany, like Russia is a heavy industry export economy and serious sanctions against Russia would destroy the German economy (because they depend on each other) and ultimately destroy the European Union, and probably destroy European NATO ultimately causing it to dissolve.

    It doesn't necessarily reflect Germans' opinion, because anyone can vote, even I voted just now after see your link(of course the third option).
    If some one had post this link on any pro-Russia web, people can follow the link to vote the 3rd option, unless it can be garanteed that this link has never been post on any pro-Russia web(s) before...

    That's a flawed argument, over 16,000 people voted online...what's the likeliness that the majority of the 16,000+ votes would be non-German speakers, what's the likeliness that a German language website/newspaper, with a historically conservative German audience would not be dominated by a German readership? Please go in to detail with your strong evidence that the poll wasn't dominated by German speaking people.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:01 am

    A bit of humor ....Very Happy 
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 111225646_MessingwithPutin_122_101lo

    .
    .
    a little later

    .
    .
    .
    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 111343506_putin_bear_122_388lo
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:28 am

    A likely outcome is the federalisation of Ukraine (minus Crimea)....at least that's what Kerry and Lavrov seem to be negotiating about

    Lavrov, Kerry agree to work on constitutional reform in Ukraine: Russian ministry
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/us-ukraine-crisis-lavrov-kerry-idUSBREA2F05Y20140316


    If that can't be agreed or large scale violence erupts, IMO Russia will absorb the South-East regions.

    An interesting statement made by the deputy prime minister of Crimea, where he says that the Crimean Forces will actively take part in the liberation of the Southern regions (Kherson, Nikolajev and Odessa)....which probably means that the Russian Army might enter Southern Ukraine under the Crimean flag

    Crimea, ready to release from the illegal authorities neighboring Russian-speaking area
    http://belrussia.ru/page-id-5092.html

    This is what stage 2 might look like....note that it leaves the rump Ukraine without access to the sea and connects Transnistria (Russian enklave in Moldovia) with Russian regions of Ukraine.

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 Th_101328838_Rus_Ukraine_122_413lo

    .
    .
    .

    And finaly Stage 3 - Lvov Republic  Cool 

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 Th_113015166_LvovRepublik_122_271lo
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:45 am

    Don't think Russia is taking the East.

    Far messier, far more difficult than Crimea.
    Kiev won't go along with it either. They will come to terms with Crimea leaving.

    We got "something" out of this needless mess, quit while ahead.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:55 am

    TR1 wrote:Don't think Russia is taking the East.

    Far messier, far more difficult than Crimea.
    Kiev won't go along with it either. They will come to terms with Crimea leaving.

    We got "something" out of this needless mess, quit while ahead.

    Crimea is not just something, it actually means "a lot" from a geo-political strategic stand point. Crimea joining Russia means the neo-nazi's will never be energy independent, and it forces the cretins in the EU to rely more on Russia for their energy needs, it also means that Russia will have both sides of the Black Sea covered with strategic bases. Considering the current govt. wasn't elected and considering the harsh IMF imposed austerity measures (cutting pensions for the elderly, heating gas subsidy) how long will this govt. last? I give it 5-6 years tops (which is quite a generous assumption).
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    Post  Cyberspec Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:57 am

    It doesn't matter what "Kiev" wants. Ukraine will either be restructured or it will fall apart...it's clear as day
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    Post  macedonian Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:57 pm

    xeno wrote:It doesn't necessarily reflect Germans' opinion, because anyone can vote, even I voted just now after see your link(of course the third option).
    If some one had post this link on any pro-Russia web, people can follow the link to vote the 3rd option, unless it can be garanteed that this link has never been post on any pro-Russia web(s) before...

    Actually, there was a survey by an agency:

    Spiegel wrote:The German government is nevertheless hoping to prevent an economic war. This approach is also prudent out of domestic political considerations. A survey conducted by German pollster Forsa found that two-thirds of all Germans reject sanctions against Russia relating to the Crimean crisis. This helps to explain why both Merkel and Steinmeier want the conditions under which the third level of sanctions are implemented to remain as flexible as possible.

    Spiegel Online
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    Post  macedonian Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:10 pm

    Japanese are again proving to be nothing more than American puppets:

    ITAR-TASS wrote:Japan halts consultations on easing visa regime with Russia
    Japan's sanctions against Russia also include the suspension of talks on investment cooperation, joint space exploration and prevention of dangerous military activity
    TOKYO, March 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Japan’s Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida has expressed his regret over Moscow’s decision to recognize the independence of Crimea and announced the introduction of sanctions against Russia. The foreign minister’s official statement says that sanctions include halting consultations on easing visa regime between the two countries and suspension of talks on investment cooperation, joint space exploration and prevention of dangerous military activity.

    Link

    Not a good move by Abe.
    Kiss any negotiations about the Kurils goodbye now, Shinzo!
    See how that works for you domestically.
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    Post  arpakola Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:29 pm

    Donetsk region. Tank trench (reportedly 150 km long) and concrete barriers along the border with Russia
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    Post  TR1 Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:22 pm

    Well, umm, It is done.

    Putin signs and Duma votes.
    Crimea is a Russian subject.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:35 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Don't think Russia is taking the East.

    Far messier, far more difficult than Crimea.
    Kiev won't go along with it either. They will come to terms with Crimea leaving.

    We got "something" out of this needless mess, quit while ahead.

    Crimea is not just something, it actually means "a lot" from a geo-political strategic stand point. Crimea joining Russia means the neo-nazi's will never be energy independent, and it forces the cretins in the EU to rely more on Russia for their energy needs, it also means that Russia will have both sides of the Black Sea covered with strategic bases. Considering the current govt. wasn't elected and considering the harsh IMF imposed austerity measures (cutting pensions for the elderly, heating gas subsidy) how long will this govt. last? I give it 5-6 years tops (which is quite a generous assumption).


    5-6 years?? There are elections 2 months from now.....
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    Post  arpakola Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:09 pm

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #2 - Page 16 CrimeaRussian
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    Post  Viktor Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:13 pm

    Everything by the book !

    Putin appeals to the decisions of the UN and the U.S. on the Kosovo precedent


    During his speech, the Russian president cited two papers that emphasized Kosovo's right to independence. Thus, the International Court of Justice in its judgment in Kosovo said: "There is no general prohibition on the unilateral declaration of independence does not arise from the practice of the Security Council. General international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence."


    Putin and quoted an excerpt from a written memorandum U.S. submission to the International Court of Kosovo. "Declaration of Independence can - and often it happens - may violate domestic law, but this does not mean that there is a violation of international law" - recalled the text of the document the president of Russia.




    Well that settles it!

    He urged the Ukrainian people "do not believe that Russia who scares, screams that in other regions of the Crimea will follow." "We do not want the division of Ukraine", - said Putin.
    But the Crimea, he stated, "in fact can only be Russian."


    Putin: Russia does not want the division of Ukraine, its territorial integrity respected


    Now I think the EU and US will do some more sanctions and it remains to be seen what kind.



    Last edited by Viktor on Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  zino Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:17 pm

    Epic speach. Epic day.
    But from now russian speaking ukrainians are alone. They must wake up or die.
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    Post  arpakola Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:39 pm

    zino wrote:Epic speach. Epic day.
    But from now russian speaking ukrainians are alone. They must wake up or die.
    Α federation status is a must.
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    Post  TheArmenian Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:41 pm

    Putin's finest hour.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:47 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Don't think Russia is taking the East.

    Far messier, far more difficult than Crimea.
    Kiev won't go along with it either. They will come to terms with Crimea leaving.

    We got "something" out of this needless mess, quit while ahead.

    Crimea is not just something, it actually means "a lot" from a geo-political strategic stand point. Crimea joining Russia means the neo-nazi's will never be energy independent, and it forces the cretins in the EU to rely more on Russia for their energy needs, it also means that Russia will have both sides of the Black Sea covered with strategic bases. Considering the current govt. wasn't elected and considering the harsh IMF imposed austerity measures (cutting pensions for the elderly, heating gas subsidy) how long will this govt. last? I give it 5-6 years tops (which is quite a generous assumption).


    5-6 years?? There are elections 2 months from now.....

    I know, know I was purposely being too generous with that assumption...who knows if they'll last 6 months with such harsh austerity.
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    Post  Viktor Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:27 pm

    Nice  thumbsup 


    Putin accuses US of seizing right to determine world destinies

    Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused the United States and their allies of seizing the right to decide the destinies of the world, create coalitions according to the “who is not with us is against us” principle, at the same time ignoring the UN decisions. “After the disintegration of the bipolar world, only they seized the right to decide the destinies of the world, they use force against sovereign states, create coalitions, push through the UN resolutions they need and ignore other decisions,
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    Post  arpakola Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:12 pm

    Dnepropetrovsk. Group of pro-ukarinian activists shout "Communist - on gallows", then an unknown man shout in response "Bandera - fa**ot".


    Odessa. Cable TV operator NCN stopped broadcasting of russian channels,
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:13 pm

    Putin, you klutz. Man cares more about macho domestic posturing, 'red lines' and prestige than securing a Russian strategic victory. This day, will live in infamy.
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    Post  macedonian Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:26 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Putin, you klutz. Man cares more about macho domestic posturing, 'red lines' and prestige than securing a Russian strategic victory. This day, will live in infamy.

    I'm not so sure...still on the fence on that one.
    Only time will tell.

    ---------------
    Edit to add:

    His speech is pretty powerful though strong-worded. But based on facts.
    Love the Serbia/Kosovo, Iraq, Syria and Libya parts.
    First official to call the Americans on all of those.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:37 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Putin, you klutz. Man cares more about macho domestic posturing, 'red lines' and prestige than securing a Russian strategic victory. This day, will live in infamy.
    Nah, it's about time he starts drawing some "red lines", cause NATO (aka U.S) clearly ain't gonna stop unless there are consequences to there actions and Russia already achieved a strategic victory.

    As for infamy, let the future historians decide that.

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